Any Buyer's Remorse From Teams That Drafted QB in Round 1?

[26CornerBlitz]

8 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

I don't 'have a dog in this fight, but isn't it kind of disingenuous to cite FO's DVOA ratings for offense in support of a poor OL when the very same website has their OL as performing much better than Buffalo's in literally every category?

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

 

It's also worth noting that both of Arizona's top 2 WRs--Fitz and Kirk--have higher DVOA ratings than any Buffalo WR with 50 targets, but Robert Foster does have the highest DVOA rating of any of them 

 

I saw that, but I have no idea how they calculate that.  When you watch the Cards play or in All-22 film, their OL play is awful in both pass pro and run blocking.  They don't provide much push at the POA to spring David Johnson nor do they pass block well enough to provide time for reading progressions against decent defensive fronts.  

 

  

 

 

 

Edited December 12, 2018 by 26CornerBlitz

[thebandit27]

7 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

I saw that, but I have no idea how they calculate that.  When you watch the Cards play or in All-22 film, their OL play is awful in both pass pro and run blocking.  They don't provide much push at the POA to spring David Johnson nor do they pass block well enough to provide time for reading progressions against decent defensive fronts.  

 

They explain it pretty thoroughly on the page:

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/info/methods#aly

[NewEra]

8 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

I saw that, but I have no idea how they calculate that.  When you watch the Cards play or in All-22 film, their OL play is awful in both pass pro and run blocking.  They don't provide much push at the POA to spring David Johnson nor do they pass block well enough to provide time for reading progressions against decent defensive fronts.  

 

  

 

 

 

You noticed that the Bills were in the bottom 5 of 3 of the 4 stats you listed.  I don’t have the time to look for it like you do, but I’m confidant that there’s an OL stat that the bills are bottom 5 and the cards aren’t like the last stat you listed.  

 

And what about the playmaker comment?  After 4 mentions, no reply.  Per the usual 

[thebandit27]

We can cherry pick offensive stats to support a certain stance, but what I'd really like to see is which QB has been pressured the highest percentage of snaps (at one point it was Allen), as well as average RB yards before contact.

 

I mean, here's just one example of a statistic that would indicate that Allen's protection has been worse, but requires more context:

 

Found it:

 

[26CornerBlitz]

31 minutes ago, NewEra said:

You noticed that the Bills were in the bottom 5 of 3 of the 4 stats you listed.  I don’t have the time to look for it like you do, but I’m confidant that there’s an OL stat that the bills are bottom 5 and the cards aren’t like the last stat you listed.  

 

And what about the playmaker comment?  After 4 mentions, no reply.  Per the usual 

 

The Bills' OL stinks too and they need upgrades especially the interior as I have been posting all season long.  The Cardinals are worse off.  They have Johnson and Fitz, but their effectiveness is limited by OL play.  If you're so confident, then back up your claims with numbers.  I've already shown the Cardinals are the absolute worst in scoring and a number of other categories including DVOA and others I, yet somehow their OL is better?  It does not add up. 

25 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

We can cherry pick offensive stats to support a certain stance, but what I'd really like to see is which QB has been pressured the highest percentage of snaps (at one point it was Allen), as well as average RB yards before contact.

 

I mean, here's just one example of a statistic that would indicate that Allen's protection has been worse, but requires more context:

 

Found it:

 

 

Then look those up and present them.

Edited December 12, 2018 by 26CornerBlitz

[thebandit27]

1 minute ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Then look those up and present them.

 

Wow, relax man.

 

I actually did look one of them up and posted it in the very post you replied to...I can't find a source for RB yards before contact.  Rest assured that I'd post it if I did...closest I found was FO's adjusted line yards, which is pretty darn clear about which OLs are moving the LOS better than others.

[Royale with Cheese]

So did we find out if the Bills or Cardinals have a worse offensive line?

[26CornerBlitz]

1 minute ago, thebandit27 said:

 

Wow, relax man.

 

I actually did look one of them up and posted it in the very post you replied to...I can't find a source for RB yards before contact.  Rest assured that I'd post it if I did...closest I found was FO's adjusted line yards, which is pretty darn clear about which OLs are moving the LOS better than others.

 

Oh I'm relaxed.  I just want to see the proof of your belief that Allen is under more duress. Since his return from injury, I have seen Allen have time in the pocket to stand tall and go through progressions on a number of occasions before picking his target and letting it rip.  

 

2018 NFL Offensive Line Rankings: All 32 teams' units after Week 12 | NFL Analysis | Pro Football Focus
 

 

1 minute ago, Royale with Cheese said:

So did we find out if the Bills or Cardinals have a worse offensive line?

 

They are both terrible units.  The Cardinals are worse.

[Royale with Cheese]

Just now, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Oh I'm relaxed.  I just want to see the proof of your belief that Allen is under more duress. Since his return from injury, I have seen Allen have time in the pocket to stand tall and go through progressions on a number of occasions before picking his target and letting it rip.  

 

2018 NFL Offensive Line Rankings: All 32 teams' units after Week 12 | NFL Analysis | Pro Football Focus
 

 

 

They are both terrible units.  The Cardinals are worse.

 

Is it okay if I think the Bills have a worse line?

[Figster]

On 12/11/2018 at 2:22 PM, John from Riverside said:

I am thinking at this point none of them have buyers remorse

 

They have all had ups and downs.....but have shown glimpses or promise (Mayfield above all)

Its hard not to put Mayfield at the top of the list by way of 1st season rookie play/accomplishments IMO, and good for the Browns organization. Like Buffalo its been a long time coming.

 

but I gotta tell you John,  I would not trade Josh Allen away for anyone.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[John from Riverside]

1 minute ago, Figster said:

Its hard not to put Mayfield at the top of the list by way of 1st season rookie play/accomplishments IMO, and good for the Browns organization. Like Buffalo its been a long time coming.

 

but I gotta tell you John,  I would not trade Josh Allen away for anyone.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nope.....give Josh Browns type offensive talent and lets see how he looks

[teef]

3 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Is it okay if I think the Bills have a worse line?

i wouldn't.  

[26CornerBlitz]

4 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Is it okay if I think the Bills have a worse line?

 

Have a Snickers and think what you will.

[Royale with Cheese]

21 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

We can cherry pick offensive stats to support a certain stance, but what I'd really like to see is which QB has been pressured the highest percentage of snaps (at one point it was Allen), as well as average RB yards before contact.

 

I mean, here's just one example of a statistic that would indicate that Allen's protection has been worse, but requires more context:

 

Found it:

 

 

So for every 10 snaps, Allen is being hurried/pressured on 4 of them?  Yeah...that's terrible.  

 

1 minute ago, teef said:

i wouldn't.  

 

I don't want to die today....I'm going to watch Modern Family tonight.

1 minute ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Have a Snickers and think what you will.

 

I prefer Nestle Crunch and I'll stick with the Bills offensive line being worse.  

[teef]

1 minute ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

 

 

I don't want to die today....I'm going to watch Modern Family tonight.

so...are you watching the goldbergs and just forget to change the channel?

[26CornerBlitz]

 

[Royale with Cheese]

Just now, teef said:

so...are you watching the goldbergs and just forget to change the channel?

 

I think the only ABC sitcom I watch is Modern Family.

Haley is pregnant!  Cam and Mitch are moving to Missouri (I'm sorry...Missoura)

[teef]

1 minute ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I think the only ABC sitcom I watch is Modern Family.

Haley is pregnant!  Cam and Mitch are moving to Missouri (I'm sorry...Missoura)

i hate everything about this post.

[Royale with Cheese]

1 minute ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this a stat showing the defense pressuring and not the QB's being pressured?

Just now, teef said:

i hate everything about this post.

 

You don't watch Modern Family?  Tell me you're joking.

[26CornerBlitz]

1 minute ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this a stat showing the defense pressuring and not the QB's being pressured?

 

You don't watch Modern Family?  Tell me you're joking.

 

Yep. I misread it.

[teef]

1 minute ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

 

You don't watch Modern Family?  Tell me you're joking.

i don't.  not that i dislike it, but i'm on a netflix roll, and my wife prefers murder porn.

[thebandit27]

5 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Oh I'm relaxed.  I just want to see the proof of your belief that Allen is under more duress. Since his return from injury, I have seen Allen have time in the pocket to stand tall and go through progressions on a number of occasions before picking his target and letting it rip.  

 

2018 NFL Offensive Line Rankings: All 32 teams' units after Week 12 | NFL Analysis | Pro Football Focus
 

 

 

They are both terrible units.  The Cardinals are worse.

 

Well I posted the FO metrics once, and I also posted the pressure percentage allowed.

 

I'll post it again for posterity, but I'm not sure how much more you want to see.

 

[26CornerBlitz]

1 minute ago, thebandit27 said:

 

Well I posted the FO metrics once, and I also posted the pressure percentage allowed.

 

I'll post it again for posterity, but I'm not sure how much more you want to see.

 

 

 I saw it and it means neither unit is good. 40.7% to 37.8% from ESPN which awful for both. The numbers PFO has on the Cardinals' OL don't match up with what I see or any other statistical sight that measures such things.  All of those types of sites have some subjectivity in their methodology. 

[thebandit27]

1 minute ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

 I saw it and it means neither unit is good. 40.7% to 37.8% from ESPN which awful for both. The numbers PFO has on the Cardinals' OL don't match up with what I see or any other statistical sight that measures such things.  All of those types of sites have some subjectivity in their methodology. 

 

And so you see my issue with citing DVOA as evidence to support your OL assertion when you otherwise marginalize OL statistics from the very same entity?  Because, remember, that was my original reply to you on this particular discussion point.

[NewEra]

42 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

The Bills' OL stinks too and they need upgrades especially the interior as I have been posting all season long.  The Cardinals are worse off.  They have Johnson and Fitz, but their effectiveness is limited by OL play.  If you're so confident, then back up your claims with numbers.  I've already shown the Cardinals are the absolute worst in scoring and a number of other categories including DVOA and others I, yet somehow their OL is better?  It does not add up. 

 

Then look those up and present them.

Bandit came up with the numbers.  Sorry I don’t have time to feverishly track down stats on websites.  Someone else did.  You say those stats don’t matter and come up with new stats.  But they matter somehow because you watch all-22.  Come on man.  If the cards OL play is worse than the Bills, it’s not by a wide margin. Terrible Ol play is terrible Ol play.  The only reason we move the balL and they never do is because Our QB is a 6’4 240 lb running back and Rosen just gets wrecked. 

 

You say Johnson and Fitz are good but the Ol makes it so they can’t be used effectively.  We have shady.  A dynamic RB......relegated to being one of the worst RB in football.  We have shady and who?  Shady and no one.  The cardinals have better playmakers than we do.  There is no doubt.  

 

Edit:  i retire

Edited December 12, 2018 by NewEra

[26CornerBlitz]

3 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

And so you see my issue with citing DVOA as evidence to support your OL assertion when you otherwise marginalize OL statistics from the very same entity?  Because, remember, that was my original reply to you on this particular discussion point.

 

My original point was they have the worst offense by far and they do in a number of categories including points scored. 

 

1 minute ago, NewEra said:

Bandit came up with the numbers.  Sorry I don’t have time to feverishly track down stats on websites.  Someone else did.  You say those stats don’t matter and come up with new stats.  But they matter somehow because you watch all-22.  Come on man.  If the cards OL play is worse than the Bills, it’s not by a wide margin. Terrible Ol play is terrible Ol play.  The only reason we move the balL and they never do is because Our QB is a 6’4 240 lb running back and Rosen just gets wrecked. 

 

You say Johnson and Fitz are good but the Ol makes it so they can’t be used effectively.  We have shady.  A dynamic RB......relegated to being one of the worst RB in football.  We have shady and who?  Shady and no one.  The cardinals have better playmakers than we do.  There is no doubt.  

 

Cardinals' OL dead last here: 2018 NFL Offensive Line Rankings: All 32 teams' units after Week 12 | NFL Analysis | Pro Football Focus
 

Edited December 12, 2018 by 26CornerBlitz

[thebandit27]

2 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

My original point was they have the worst offense by far and they do in a number of categories including points scored. 

 

 

Sure, but the bone I picked was that you used their DVOA ranking in overall offense to buttress your stance on the OL:

 

1 hour ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Wrong again! 178 points scored which is DFL and they are last by far in DVOA rankings!  Their worst in the NFL OL is why they are so punchless in both the run and pass game. They have exact zero starters on that unit who would replace any Buffalo Bill starter.

 

Week 14 DVOA Ratings | Football Outsiders

 

I was simply trying to point out the duality of citing DVOA as evidence of a league-worst OL when the very same site that calculates DVOA ranks them well above Buffalo in every OL category...which you seemed to agree with when you called rankings/ratings of such nature subjective.

 

Guess I don't really have much to add beyond that.

[26CornerBlitz]

3 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

Sure, but the bone I picked was that you used their DVOA ranking in overall offense to buttress your stance on the OL:

 

 

I was simply trying to point out the duality of citing DVOA as evidence of a league-worst OL when the very same site that calculates DVOA ranks them well above Buffalo in every OL category...which you seemed to agree with when you called rankings/ratings of such nature subjective.

 

Guess I don't really have much to add beyond that.

 

I had not looked at any OL rankings at that point.  Theirs is an outlier from my eye, other rankings from various sources , and the bottom line offensive production by points scored. 

[Magox]

Can we just admit that they both have terrible lines and it's arguable to say that one is worse than the other?

 

And can we admit that the Allen has a strong argument in having a worse supporting cast than Arizona?  Or at the very least equally as bad?

 

And can we admit that Josh has arguably done more with a worse or equally bad supporting cast than Rosen?

Edited December 12, 2018 by Magox

[Royale with Cheese]

1 hour ago, teef said:

i don't.  not that i dislike it, but i'm on a netflix roll, and my wife prefers murder porn.

 

Modern Family = murder porn

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

On 12/11/2018 at 3:05 PM, Rochesterfan said:

 

 

I can’t imagine any of the teams that got a QB are having remorse right now.  All have shown progress and all potentially give hope to the future.

 

The only buyers remorse I can think is the teams like the Giants that really now appear to need a QB and were in position, but did not take one and they ended up with Barkley who is having himself a good season.

 

Other teams like the Jags might regret missing out, but their draft position precluded a big move up and I am not sure Jackson is what they would have wanted.

 

 

...agree RF....way, WAY too early to start talking "buyers' remorse" about this class...........look at the Mahomes kid.....plenty of posting pundits who wanted no part of a "leper like" Air Raid offense product......plenty of "no Air Raid QB succeeds in the NFL" quips......and that SAME gang is drooling all over their penny loafers claiming to have said, "see I told you he'd be good....Bflo BLEW the pick"......

[GoBills808]

Did we ever get to the bottom of which offensive line is worse between the Bills and the Cardinals? 

[Mike in Horseheads]

4 hours ago, Teddy KGB said:

 

Hes so desperate for Rosen to outplay Allen ????

26CP...new pastor at COR (church of rosen)

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

Rosen is the worst of the bunch. 

 

Sorry I don’t have a tweet from someone else to support my opinions 

[Trogdor]

On 12/11/2018 at 3:03 PM, Rc2catch said:

For me Rosen actually looks the worst. He possibly has the best weapons and their offense just looks pathetic. Like ours the first half of the season lol only it’s been all year for them. 

Right now I think we’d kill to see allen with a washed up Fitzgerald and Christian Kirk with David Johnson 

Fitz was injured and David Johnson is a shell of himself. Throw in an Oline that might be worse than ours and you have a dumpster fire. They have even more to rebuild than the Bills. It's going to be a while.

[Ayjent]

3 hours ago, Magox said:

Can we just admit that they both have terrible lines and it's arguable to say that one is worse than the other?

 

And can we admit that the Allen has a strong argument in having a worse supporting cast than Arizona?  Or at the very least equally as bad?

 

And can we admit that Josh has arguably done more with a worse or equally bad supporting cast than Rosen?

I think that covers it. I think Rosen being worse at making plays is the difference between the two offenses and how bad the line looks.  Allen is more mobile and able to extend plays and drives because of it.  There is no question he is getting immediate pressure more than any QB in the league, and despite the line play he is showing progress and understanding of the game as the season goes on.  I need to see more, but his reads are getting better and his running is the product of understanding what he sees for the taking.

 

i think the Bills have more talent on the OL starting than the Cardinals, but the OL coaching is subpar for the Bills and the talent difference isn’t much.  Outside of Dawkins who looks pretty average, the Bills OL is basically backup caliber on most teams that starts for the Bills. 

[Teddy KGB]

1 hour ago, Trogdor said:

Fitz was injured and David Johnson is a shell of himself. Throw in an Oline that might be worse than ours and you have a dumpster fire. They have even more to rebuild than the Bills. It's going to be a while.

 

Allen > Rosen though correct ? 

[HappyDays]

Not to wade into the exhilarating Cardinals vs Bills o-line debate but I think penalties are a fair tiebreaker.

 

https://www.footballdb.com/stats/penalties.html?sort=oh

 

Buffalo has 19 offensive holdings to Arizona's 10, and 20 false starts to Arizona's 15. In total penalty yards we have 919 to their 637 although it doesn't differentiate between offensive and defensive penalty yards.

 

All in all it's fair to say Rosen has the edge in total offensive talent around him, and regardless Allen is accomplishing a lot more with what he has. Considering Rosen was supposed to be the pro-ready rookie that's concerning for him.

[26CornerBlitz]

1 minute ago, HappyDays said:

Not to wade into the exhilarating Cardinals vs Bills o-line debate but I think penalties are a fair tiebreaker.

 

https://www.footballdb.com/stats/penalties.html?sort=oh

 

Buffalo has 19 offensive holdings to Arizona's 10, and 20 false starts to Arizona's 15. In total penalty yards we have 919 to their 637 although it doesn't differentiate between offensive and defensive penalty yards.

 

All in all it's fair to say Rosen has the edge in total offensive talent around him, and regardless Allen is accomplishing a lot more with what he has. Considering Rosen was supposed to be the pro-ready rookie that's concerning for him.

 

No one with any objectivity would say that. 

 

Name all of this purported talent he's surrounded by. 

[HappyDays]

2 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

No one with any objectivity would say that. 

 

Yeah I'm sure every objective football fan in the country would take Robert Foster, Zay Jones, and 30 year old Lesean McCoy over Larry Fitzgerald, Christian Kirk, and 26 year old David Johnson.