When was the last time an NFL team gave up on a HC too soon?

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, LSHMEAB said:

I'll give you Belichick and Carroll, but Reid was hardly a guy who was fired too soon. I mean they gave the guy what, 16 years? 

 

Reid is solid, but I think the premise of this thread is a good one. VERY seldom does a coach get fired "too quickly." 

There is no real premise.  It is just another guy crying because the team isn't doing that well.

 

What if you flip the question, and ask how many teams become successful switching coaches every year or two?  Answers for that is zero.

[LSHMEAB]

Just now, oldmanfan said:

There is no real premise.  It is just another guy crying because the team isn't doing that well.

 

What if you flip the question, and ask how many teams become successful switching coaches every year or two?  Answers for that is zero.

The problem is not that those teams are switching coaches. It's that they're hiring the wrong coaches in the first place.

[oldmanfan]

2 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

The problem is not that those teams are switching coaches. It's that they're hiring the wrong coaches in the first place.

Not necessarily.  Give guys time to put things together.

 

With your kind of mindset guys like Levy and Belichick and Carroll and Jimmy J may never have become the greats they became.

[Doc Brown]

I'd argue Jim Caldwell shouldn't have been fired by the Lions.  Not the most exciting coach, but three winning seasons and two playoff births in four seasons was impressive given their history.  The Giants haven't done much since they pushed Tom Coughlin out.

[SinceThe70s]

3 minutes ago, Skins Malone said:

Yes but hes posing the question because he wants McD to get fired.  It's the samething as another fire McD thread.

 

Fair enough, that wasn't my reason for backing the question, I think the fire (insert name) threads have become incessant and tiresome.

 

IMO McBeane will and should get through this time next year at a minimum. 

[Billsfanatic8989]

Belichick deserved to be fired in Cleveland. 4 out of 5 years were losing seasons. He was about to be fired in 2001(Started 0-2) when Brady fell into his lap.

 

Marty S was fired in San Diego because him and the GM hated one another. In hindsight, they should've fired the GM.

 

What about LA Raiders firing Mike Shanahan?

[26CornerBlitz]

1 minute ago, Doc Brown said:

I'd argue Jim Caldwell shouldn't have been fired by the Lions.  Not the most exciting coach, but three winning seasons and two playoff births in four seasons was impressive given their history.  The Giants haven't done much since they pushed Tom Coughlin out.

 

Boys or girls?  Coughlin was in NY for 15,000 years and it was time for a change. 

[Happy]

The Raiders firing Jon Gruden after the 2001 season.  Then the Raiders firing Jack Del Rio after the 2017 season.  That team has gone full circle within 16 years.

[26CornerBlitz]

Just now, Happy Gilmore said:

The Raiders firing Jon Gruden after the 2001 season.  Then the Raiders firing Jack Del Rio after the 2017 season.  That team has gone full circle within 16 years.

 

Gruden was traded to the Bucs.

[Happy]

Just now, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Gruden was traded to the Bucs.

 

I thought I remember Gruden and Al Davis did not get along back then; kind of odd, trading a coach.  Either way, they would have been better off keeping Gruden.

[stuvian]

Did Jim Mora Jr. Even see the field before he was let go in favour of Pete Carroll in Seattle?

[26CornerBlitz]

1 minute ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

I thought I remember Gruden and Al Davis did not get along back then; kind of odd, trading a coach.  Either way, they would have been better off keeping Gruden.

 

Davis didn't want to pay big bucks to him so he traded him for picks.  Two #1s plus more.  TB then slaughtered the Raiders in the Super Bowl after Bill Callahan didn't change the play calls.  Easiest SB win ever. 

[stuvian]

I think there is consensus that the Bills got rid of Chuck Knox and Lou Saban too soon

[SinceThe70s]

19 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Belichick

Pete Carroll

Andy Reid

 

 

We all know about Belichik, but what we'll never know is whether the Browns trophy case would be full of Lombardi's if they had retained him. 

 

Nice call on Carroll. 

 

Not sure if Reid fits the criteria.

[26CornerBlitz]

Just now, SinceThe70s said:

 

We all know about Belichik, but what we'll never know is whether the Browns trophy case would be full of Lombardi's if they had retained him. 

 

Nice call on Carroll. 

 

Not sure if Reid fits the criteria.

 

No. Because they moved to Baltimore to become the Ravens. 

[BillsSbSoon]

I felt like todd haley got a raw deal in kc. took them to the playoffs with matt cassel. Good offensive mind he just is hard to deal with i guess

[SinceThe70s]

1 minute ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

No. Because they moved to Baltimore to become the Ravens. 

 

Factually true, but tangential and irrelevant to the discussion.

[Boatdrinks]

46 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

You know, that brings up a really interesting thought. What kind of coach would Bill Belichick even be if not for Brady? He had the one season with Matt Cassel where they went 10-6, but that's not enough of a sample size to say definitively one way or the other.

 

It's not an original thought, but I'm sure he'd love to win a ring without Brady. Obviously the whole Jimmy G thing has been discussed to death.

We know that before Brady he was around .500 as a HC. He led them to a 5-11 record in 2000 and they lost the opener in ‘01. The Boston media had said Belichick could be be fired as soon as the day after the game vs NYJ if they went 0-2 to start.  He wasn’t though, and the rest as they say is history. NE’s improbable and ridiculously long ( by NFL standards) period of dominance has had Brady as the one constant. Belichick obviously hadn’t had a QB of that caliber while HC up to that point. B.B. clearly wants to win a championship without Brady to cement his own legacy. He lost the power struggle to retain Garrapolo, but you have to wonder if Garrapolo would be the Pats * QB now if it were solely up to him. Kraft of course will never betray his stroke of good luck and will let Brady dictate his own terms. 

[ColoradoBills]

LOL.  Good Lord with these threads.

 

How about asking what coaches who took their teams to the playoffs and then had a bad year and STAYED as coach went on to win for years?

 

Beane and McDermott will be in Buffalo for the 2019 season.

 

Some on this board would of called for Levy's head after losing to the Colts (47-6) in 1987.

Then went on next week to lose again with a total Bills record of 3-8 at the time.

Keep in mind Levy was HC of the Chiefs for 5 years with a 31-42 record.

 

NO ONE knows what Beane and McDermott's future will be................but they will be here in 2019.

Period.

[26CornerBlitz]

Just now, SinceThe70s said:

 

Factually true, but tangential and irrelevant to the discussion.

 

Totally relevant based on your question of Cleveland having Lombardi Trophies because of Belichick when they got an expansion franchise having no team until 99. 

 

The question about the Ravens and Belichick is the one to ask as it was earler in the thread. 

[noacls]

Ralph when he got rid of Wade 

[mannc]

It’s a good question.  It’s equally valid to ask for examples of teams who stuck with coaches who were on the hot seat and ended up turning things around.  Coughlin and the Giants?  Dick Vermeil in St Louis?

[Doc Brown]

6 minutes ago, BillsSbSoon said:

I felt like todd haley got a raw deal in kc. took them to the playoffs with matt cassel. Good offensive mind he just is hard to deal with i guess

He was too tough to deal with as their was a lot of friction between him and Pioli.  

[SinceThe70s]

1 minute ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Totally relevant based on your question of Cleveland having Lombardi Trophies because of Belichick when they got an expansion franchise having no team until 99. 

 

The question about the Ravens and Belichick is the one to ask as it was earler in the thread. 

 

OK, so if I had said the following would you have been less pissy:

 

We all know about Belichik, but what we'll never know is whether the Browns Ravens trophy case would be full of Lombardi's if they had retained him. 

[Boatdrinks]

10 minutes ago, SinceThe70s said:

 

We all know about Belichik, but what we'll never know is whether the Browns trophy case would be full of Lombardi's if they had retained him. 

 

Nice call on Carroll. 

 

Not sure if Reid fits the criteria.

On Belichick it would be the Ravens not the Browns. My guess is no. I don’t think he’d have an extended run of dominance and championships with a great defense and Trent Dilfer as his QB. 

[26CornerBlitz]

Just now, SinceThe70s said:

 

OK, so if I had said the following would you have been less pissy:

 

We all know about Belichik, but what we'll never know is whether the Browns Ravens trophy case would be full of Lombardi's if they had retained him. 

 

Pissy? You just forgot about what really happened with the Franchise.  Not a big deal to get all huffy about. 

[SinceThe70s]

Just now, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Pissy? You just forgot about what really happened with the Franchise.  Not a big deal to get all huffy about. 

 

Check out Boatdrinks response correcting my error. He corrected me and addressed the point.

 

You dismissed the point based on my error. To me your response was pissy, and that made me huffy. You reap what you sow.

[26CornerBlitz]

2 minutes ago, SinceThe70s said:

 

Check out Boatdrinks response correcting my error. He corrected me and addressed the point.

 

You dismissed the point based on my error. To me your response was pissy, and that made me huffy. You reap what you sow.

 

I simply stated a matter of fact. You made yourself huffy, but you'll survive and so will I. 

[Boatdrinks]

1 hour ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Belichick had a good thing going with Cleveland and would have likely enjoyed sustained success in Baltimore. 

He did, but it’s a leap to say sustained success was likely.  It’s certainly debatable. As you stated, it takes the right QB and there is no guarantee B.B. would have found that in Baltimore. They had an all time defense and Trent Dilfer at QB when they won the SB vs the Giants. Roethlisberger ended up in the division shortly thereafter. The QB deprived AFCE has provided an easy path to division titles and home fields in the playoffs. Brady has tormented the Steelers, but what if a Brady-less BB. had been with the Ravens and faced Big Ben twice a year? Many factors to consider and barriers to success existed. 

[BADOLBILZ]

 

 

What I am asking is who proved he was fired too soon by having success elsewhere afterward?

 

Pete Carroll has been mentioned a couple times..........and maybe the Jets regret it.........but firing him and hiring Belichick was one of the greatest moves in NFL history by Kraft and the Pats.

 

I see answers like "Love Smith".........he was awful in Tampa.........so the Bears certainly weren't forced to regret that.

 

Andy Reid..........nope...........the Eagles just won a SB which the accomplished Reid has never done.

 

I think the Niners losing Harbaugh was huge but he wasn't so much fired as he was angling his way out of town.

 

Shanahan and the Raiders.......definitely a mistake by Al......... but that was outside of the 25 year range.........and 25 is probably generous to consider relevant........I'm not even sure Belichick is a reasonable cautionary tale anymore........teams just have so much more info now than they had back then.

 

in any event......there certainly aren't many..........it simply doesn't take long to identify if a HC/GM have what it takes and it takes less time than ever to shape a roster if done right.

Edited November 4, 2018 by BADOLBILZ

[26CornerBlitz]

16 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

He did, but it’s a leap to say sustained success was likely.  It’s certainly debatable. As you stated, it takes the right QB and there is no guarantee B.B. would have found that in Baltimore. They had an all time defense and Trent Dilfer at QB when they won the SB vs the Giants. Roethlisberger ended up in the division shortly thereafter. The QB deprived AFCE has provided an easy path to division titles and home fields in the playoffs. Brady has tormented the Steelers, but what if a Brady-less BB. had been with the Ravens and faced Big Ben twice a year? Many factors to consider and barriers to success existed. 

 

You can't really project Dilfer because things would have been so much different with him at the helm. 

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, Rob's House said:

It's kind of like the question about what QBs have been ruined by starting to soon. It's kind of hard to tell with any degree of accuracy because we don't know what might have happened otherwise.

 

 

It's "kind of" like it.........but not the same for sure......they don't get physically and mentally destroyed like mismanaged QB's........and the NFL LOVES to give experienced coaches second chances at HC jobs.     Even the mediocre ones get second and sometimes third chances.   

[SinceThe70s]

13 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

What I am asking is who proved he was fired too soon by having success elsewhere afterward?

 

Pete Carroll has been mentioned a couple times..........and maybe the Jets regret it.........but firing him and hiring Belichick was one of the greatest moves in NFL history by Kraft and the Pats.

 

I see answers like "Love Smith".........he was awful in Tampa.........so the Bears certainly weren't forced to regret that.

 

Andy Reid..........nope...........the Eagles just won a SB which the accomplished Reid has never done.

 

I think the Niners losing Harbaugh was huge but he wasn't so much fired as he was angling his way out of town.

 

Shanahan and the Raiders.......definitely a mistake by Al......... but that was outside of the 25 year range.........and 25 is probably generous to consider relevant........I'm not even sure Belichick is a reasonable cautionary tale anymore........teams just have so much more info now than they had back then.

 

in any event......there certainly aren't many..........it simply doesn't take long to identify if a HC/GM have what it takes and it takes less time than ever to shape a roster if done right.

 

What's your over/under on the number of games it takes to evaluate a head coach? And is roster talent something to consider? If so, how is that factored in?

Edited November 4, 2018 by SinceThe70s

[BADOLBILZ]

50 minutes ago, noacls said:

Ralph when he got rid of Wade 

 

 

Love Wade as a DC but he runs a sloppy ship.......no attention to detail....... as a HC and the team degenerates under his watch............I wouldn't have faulted Donahoe for giving him another season if Wade didn't resign.........but bear in mind the PREVIOUS coaching search that Donahoe conducted......to replace Chuck Noll.........he narrowed it down to three choices......Mike Holmgren,  Dennis Green or Bill Cowher.........so suffice to say he felt like he could get a better HC than Wade.

[BillsVet]

57 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

Some on this board would of called for Levy's head after losing to the Colts (47-6) in 1987.

Then went on next week to lose again with a total Bills record of 3-8 at the time.

Keep in mind Levy was HC of the Chiefs for 5 years with a 31-42 record.

 

NO ONE knows what Beane and McDermott's future will be................but they will be here in 2019.

Period.

 

Levy was last HC in KC more than 35 years ago.  Point is, the Bills are not trending, after 2 offseasons and 24 games toward being playoff caliber.  

 

16 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

What I am asking is who proved he was fired too soon by having success elsewhere afterward?

 

Pete Carroll has been mentioned a couple times..........and maybe the Jets regret it.........but firing him and hiring Belichick was one of the greatest moves in NFL history by Kraft and the Pats.

 

I see answers like "Love Smith".........he was awful in Tampa.........so the Bears certainly weren't forced to regret that.

 

Andy Reid..........nope...........the Eagles just won a SB which the accomplished Reid has never done.

 

I think the Niners losing Harbaugh was huge but he wasn't so much fired as he was angling his way out of town.

 

There just aren't many..........it simply doesn't take long to identify if a HC/GM have what it takes and it takes less time than ever to shape a roster.

 

Outside of Tom Coughlin I can't think of one.  With NFL HCs, if they flame out in their first job it's not typical they'll figure things out in the second.  That is, if they get a second chance because most don't.   

Edited November 4, 2018 by BillsVet

[JOE IN HAMPTON ROADS]

52 minutes ago, noacls said:

Ralph when he got rid of Wade 

most definitely.  But that wasn't because of on-field performance... we went to the playoffs that year (and then not for 17 years).  I understand there was a disagreement about Wade not firing one of his assistants after the loss.  Probably also Wade was still upset he had to lie to the media about who decided not to play Flutie (it was Ralph).  I think technically he was fired but really, I think he dared Ralph to fire him and was probably happy to walk away.  Others on this board probably know more.

[BADOLBILZ]

2 minutes ago, SinceThe70s said:

 

What's your over/under on the number of games it takes to evaluate a head coach? And is roster talent something to consider? If so, how is that factored in?

 

I think a couple seasons........maybe part of another.

 

Roster talent and the ability to adapt your schemes to the players you inherit is an indication of your intelligence/competence/potential longevity as a HC.

 

[Boatdrinks]

21 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

You can't really project Dilfer because things would have been so much different with him at the helm. 

Perhaps, but the point is the same even if you project someone else. The Ravens had Dilfer. The QB would probably not have been Tom Brady. 

[26CornerBlitz]

Just now, Boatdrinks said:

Perhaps, but the point is the same even if you project someone else. The Ravens had Dilfer. The QB would probably not have been Tom Brady. 

 

They didn't in 1996 when Belichick would have started in Baltimore if he hadn't been fired before the move.  Things would have played out completely differently.  Dilfer was a TB reject. 

[Heitz]

Sooooo, all we need to do is find a coach that’s never been fired and we’re good..?

 

Also, aren’t almost all NFL coaches eventually fired?

Edited November 4, 2018 by Heitz