The Draft Network - Josh Allen's Struggles Go Beyond Lackluster Supporting Cast

[John from Riverside]

3 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Please! Tebow was an absolute horror show as an NFL QB who couldn't even make throws at the NFL level.  Heisman doesn't have jack to do with the equation in the NFL. 

 

Not to mention that only a idiot would make a determination on a rookie 5 games into his rookie season on a rebiulding team

 

 

[Chris66]

4 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Not to mention that only a idiot would make a determination on a rookie 5 games into his rookie season on a rebiulding team

 

 

If I remember correctly a good amount of people did exactly that with EJ.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 hours ago, Logic said:

I'm just curious: What is it about this article that makes it seem biased? What about the article is unfair or inaccurate?

 

Well, I laid it out in another post.  Let me know what's insufficiently clear.

 

The analysis itself is reasonably sound, but because of the fact that he doesn't mention JA's overall college YPG average or best YPG average - only the worst - and the fact that he doesn't diagram or mention any of JA's good pass plays to date - it does seem biased, and thus unfair.  He's referring to "highs and lows" without describing any highs.

 

There's nothing wrong with cherry-picking to make a point - provided you're up-front that that's what you're doing.  If he said "JA's troubles as an NFL QB go beyond his miserable WR crew and porous line, and I'm going to choose 3 unsuccessful plays where he did have open receiver options to illustrate this point.  He has also shown flashes,  but I'm going to focus on the gaps in this piece" that would seem fair and unbiased.

 

 

[John from Riverside]

Just now, Chris66 said:

If I remember correctly a good amount of people did exactly that with EJ.

Do we really need to go over this again.....

EJ Manuel = came out of a bad QB draft

Josh Allen = came out of what looks to be a strong QB draft

 

WE ARE FIVE GAMES INTO A ROOKIE SEASON ON A REBIULDING TEAM

[Hapless Bills Fan]

6 minutes ago, Chris66 said:

If I remember correctly a good amount of people did exactly that with EJ.

 

Ha ha actually, not so many.  What happened is after a year or two, selective memories took hold and all of a sudden he had never flashed any promise at all ever or had any good games.

[jrober38]

Allen has mostly been terrible so far, but the pleasant surprise is that the defense has been outstanding since halftime of the Chargers game.

 

The Bills look like they're a QB and #1 WR away from having an actual contender of a football team. 

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

5 hours ago, Ramza86 said:

This is a good video. I thought this was Allens worst game. 

 

Lets not forget the Titans are a very well run defense. 

 

Im not hitting the panic button. I think the second half of the season will say more about Allen and his ability to get acclimated with the position. 

 

Allens worst game? He made 2 critical passes on a game winning drive. The short dump offs that he's always been inaccurate with. The running game was working so Allen didn't have to put the last drive on his shoulders, but whos to say he wouldn't of made a long pass and got them into field goal range? It wasn't his best game, but most certaintly wasn't his worst. Come on, man.

 

5 hours ago, Chris66 said:

Watching Allen try to play qb is brutal. Dont turn the ball over and force the Bills to go the entire field equals opponents win.

 

He managed the game well and won. Stats aren't everything.

[GreatComeback]

6 hours ago, HappyDays said:

Don't shoot the messenger.

 

https://thedraftnetwork.com/2018/10/09/josh-allens-struggles-go-beyond-lackluster-supporting-cast/

 

 

 

 

 

 

It should be noted that Jon Ledyard is a high school football coach and part-time trainer. He has no NFL personnel credibility.   Has never officially scouted a player nor has he ever worked in the NFL.  Not making this up:

 

 https://draftwire.usatoday.com/author/jonledyard/

 

It it would be like us evaluating prospects.  

 

With thay being said,  Allen does not look good.  He’s not wrong - but people need to stop pretending Ledyard’s word is gospel.  He’s a hack writer 

 

 

Edited October 9, 2018 by GreatComeback

[jrober38]

1 minute ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

 

Allens worst game? He made 2 critical passes on a game winning drive. The short dump offs that he's always been inaccurate with. The running game was working so Allen didn't have to put the last drive on his shoulders, but whos to say he wouldn't of made a long pass and got them into field goal range? It wasn't his best game, but most certaintly wasn't his worst. Come on, man.

 

 

He managed the game well and won. Stats aren't everything.

 

His stats are literally the worst of any QB in the NFL right now. The only two QBs remotely close to Allen have already been benched and replaced. 

[Roundybout]

1 minute ago, jrober38 said:

 

His stats are literally the worst of any QB in the NFL right now. The only two QBs remotely close to Allen have already been benched and replaced. 

 

Was the interception to Holmes his fault?

[26CornerBlitz]

4 minutes ago, GreatComeback said:

 

It should be noted that Jon Ledyard is a high school football coach and part-time trainer. He has no NFL personnel credibility.   Has never officially scouted a player nor has he ever worked in the NFL.  Not making this up:

 

 https://draftwire.usatoday.com/author/jonledyard/

 

It it would be like us evaluating prospects.  

 

With thay being said,  Allen does not look good.  He’s not wrong - but people need to stop pretending Ledyard’s word is gospel.  He’s a hack writer 

 

Ledyard didn't write this. Joe Marino did.   

[Success]

15 minutes ago, Chris66 said:

If I remember correctly a good amount of people did exactly that with EJ.

Have you figured out why you do this yet?

 

Literally for years now, when any Bills fan post anything hopeful, you respond with a classic Debbie downer.

 

 

[Ittakestime]

54 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

And there are several reasons why for his bad numbers in college...

Have we not been through all this?   If he was a total liability he would not be leading this team.....and we would not be 2-3

So are we saying Josh Allen is Tim Tebow?

 

Ya, like inaccuracy, zero ability to read a defense, can't go through progressions quick, below average pocket awareness, etc.

 

The same reasons that he is having trouble in the NFL.

 

 

[Roundybout]

Just now, Ittakestime said:

 

Ya, like inaccuracy, zero ability to read a defense, can't go through progressions quick, below average pocket awareness, etc.

 

The same reasons that he is having trouble in the NFL.

 

 

 

Hes already proven he can read a defense to some extent. Everything you've listed are rookie problems.

[GreatComeback]

Just now, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Ledyard didn't write this. Joe Marino did.   

 

Ah ok....Joe Marino has less experienced and less credible than Ledyard.  That should tell ya something.  

 

But I’ll give him his due, this this was a good article.  But he less of an informed opinion than Nate Geary Of WGR or Jon “Yards Per Pass” Ramsey.  

[Max Fischer]

So, they pick out five plays that didn't work and that's analysis?  Now let's do Brady or even Mayfield (who had his share of brutal plays). 

1. Seriously, they are going to criticize a batted down pass? Please. 
2. Play #2 is a legitimate mistake on Allen's part. He should have thrown to Clay but you can see he wanted to make a big play on 2nd and long. Rookie mistake. 
3. This strange route seems like an odd play to harp on. 
4. The pass to KB over the middle was indeed low but had plenty of zip and tracked the route runner.  It was certainly not uncatchable and the defender had no chance to intercept.  
5. The Zay Jones route over the middle ignores the fact that the defense broke through the protection before Jones made his cut.  

What I saw:

• Only 19 passes, completing 10. 
• At least three were smart throwaways
• No dumb mistakes to hurt the team (No, I'm not counting the interception that went through Holmes hands)
• QB'd a game winning drive. 
• Nothing spectacular but a rookie who is learning to play (with very poor receivers). 

 

 

[26CornerBlitz]

Just now, GreatComeback said:

 

Ah ok....Joe Marino has less experienced and less credible than Ledyard.  That should tell ya something.  

 

But I’ll give him his due, this this was a good article.  But he less of an informed opinion than Nate Geary Of WGR or Jon “Yards Per Pass” Ramsey.  

 

It doesn't tell me anything. They are either correct in their analysis or they aren't with knowledgeable breakdowns of QB traits, mechanics, etc.  

[Success]

1 minute ago, Ittakestime said:

 

Ya, like inaccuracy, zero ability to read a defense, can't go through progressions quick, below average pocket awareness, etc.

 

The same reasons that he is having trouble in the NFL.

 

 

I’ve seen him read defenses, and go through progressions quickly.  On the latter, there is no other way to do it with our line - and he has definitely gone through progressions.

 

I think he’s shown a ton of poise, given the circumstances.

[Ramza86]

11 minutes ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

 

Allens worst game? He made 2 critical passes on a game winning drive. The short dump offs that he's always been inaccurate with. The running game was working so Allen didn't have to put the last drive on his shoulders, but whos to say he wouldn't of made a long pass and got them into field goal range? It wasn't his best game, but most certaintly wasn't his worst. Come on, man.

 

 

He managed the game well and won. Stats aren't everything.

 

It wasnt about the stats. There were a lot of passes that were area code accuracy. 

 

I saw a lot of balls that were too low that his arm should have had no problem reaching the target. 

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

Just now, Ramza86 said:

 

It wasnt about the stats. There were a lot of passes that were area code accuracy. 

 

I saw a lot of balls that were too low that his arm should have had no problem reaching the target. 

 

He didn't have a bad game "for a rookie." He gained valuable experience and made some crucial throws. I just think you are being tough on him.

12 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

His stats are literally the worst of any QB in the NFL right now. The only two QBs remotely close to Allen have already been benched and replaced. 

 

Did he or did he not get the win? Is it or is it not his 4th game starting? What other QBs are you talking about? Fitzpatrick who's been in the league for 20 years? 

 

I don't care about stats, I care about wins. That's the bottom line. 

[Chris66]

9 minutes ago, Success said:

Have you figured out why you do this yet?

 

Literally for years now, when any Bills fan post anything hopeful, you respond with a classic Debbie downer.

 

 

Nothing to do with hopeful. When the Bills have done something well I give them credit. McD does a good job idenifying defensive talent. Offensive talent not so much.

 

Put it this way if Allen was on the Pats playing like this

 You guys would be the first ones stating he sucks.

 

 

[Warcodered]

1 minute ago, Chris66 said:

Nothing to do with hopeful. When the Bills have done something well I give them credit. McD does a good job idenifying defensive talent. Offensive talent not so much.

 

Put it this way if Allen was on the Pats playing like this

 You guys would be the first ones stating he sucks.

 

 

Yes because the offense around Brady and Allen are completely interchangeable.?

[Success]

Just now, Chris66 said:

Nothing to do with hopeful. When the Bills have done something well I give them credit. McD does a good job idenifying defensive talent. Offensive talent not so much.

 

Put it this way if Allen was on the Pats playing like this

 You guys would be the first ones stating he sucks.

 

 

I wouldn’t do it on a Pats board - not even once, much less multiple times.

 

I mean, we get it.  Your team wins a lot, ours doesn’t.  But our team has a rookie who, while he clearly needs work, has a ton of promise and could change our fortunes.

 

Yours has a 41 year old who is unlikely to get younger.

[jrober38]

15 minutes ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

 

I don't care about stats, I care about wins. That's the bottom line. 

 

Cool. The point is that it's hard to get wins when your starting QB has a QB rating of 60,  is dead last in the NFL in QBR, dead last in completion percentage and 31st in yards per attempt.

 

Imagine how well we'd be doing if we had just an average QB. 

[Chris66]

9 minutes ago, Success said:

I wouldn’t do it on a Pats board - not even once, much less multiple times.

 

I mean, we get it.  Your team wins a lot, ours doesn’t.  But our team has a rookie who, while he clearly needs work, has a ton of promise and could change our fortunes.

 

Yours has a 41 year old who is unlikely to get younger.

Im glad you like Allen. Hope he does well for you guys. Im just not convinced that the Bills have the right coaching staff to develop a guy this raw.

[John from Riverside]

29 minutes ago, Ittakestime said:

 

Ya, like inaccuracy, zero ability to read a defense, can't go through progressions quick, below average pocket awareness, etc.

 

The same reasons that he is having trouble in the NFL.

 

 

Jesus why am I even bothering to debate this with you.....like talking to a tree

 

Minnesota Vikings game.....come from behind win against Tennesee.......

 

Those are NFL teams.....WINNING NFL teams....in which he made NFL caliber throws

 

 

1 minute ago, Chris66 said:

Im glad you like Allen. Hope he does well for you guys. Im just not convinced that the Bills have the right coaching staff to develop a guy this raw.

This guy is a patriots fan?

 

Oh Jesus....just go pound sand seriously

[GoBills808]

5 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

Cool. The point is that it's hard to get wins when your starting QB has a QB rating of 60,  is dead last in the NFL in QBR, dead last in completion percentage and 31st in yards per attempt.

 

Imagine how well we'd be doing if we had just an average QB. 

Nope. Rosen w/ lower completion %.

[thebandit27]

1 hour ago, Chris66 said:

No tim tebow has a heisman and a nfl playoff win.

 

Pop quiz: who was the last NFL team to lose a Super Bowl to a career backup?

[Reed83HOF]

37 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Ledyard didn't write this. Joe Marino did.   

that was a great comeback...

[TheElectricCompany]

8 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

Cool. The point is that it's hard to get wins when your starting QB has a QB rating of 60,  is dead last in the NFL in QBR, dead last in completion percentage and 31st in yards per attempt.

 

Imagine how well we'd be doing if we had just an average QB. 

 

You should know better. 

Never talk about Josh Allen & statistics together. 

It was faux pas before the draft, and it's faux pas now. 

It gets real ugly when you pull out the data. 

[jrober38]

6 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Nope. Rosen w/ lower completion %.

 

My bad. He wasn't on my list due to not having thrown enough passes yet. 

 

He's second from dead last there.

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

14 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

Cool. The point is that it's hard to get wins when your starting QB has a QB rating of 60,  is dead last in the NFL in QBR, dead last in completion percentage and 31st in yards per attempt.

 

Imagine how well we'd be doing if we had just an average QB. 

 

We all knew there would be growing pains with Allen. Are you really that shocked? And like I said before when you have 48 runs versus 19 passes then it's pretty hard for the quarterback to amass gaudy stats. What did you draft Allen on your fantasy team?

Edited October 9, 2018 by ChronicAndKnuckles

[GoBills808]

4 minutes ago, TheElectricCompany said:

 

You should know better. 

Never talk about Josh Allen & statistics together. 

It was faux pas before the draft, and it's faux pas now. 

It gets real ugly when you pull out the data. 

Unless the data is, you know, wrong. 

[Success]

If we’re going to focus on stats, can we at least mention that we’re one of the nfl leaders for dropped passes?

 

And I’m not even sure that counts plays like the tipped pass from Holmes.  But it definitely counts the dime to Foster that would have been a 60 yard TD.

 

He starts out with an inaccurate rep, so any grounder or floater instantly makes people think, we’ll, there it is.  But watch other games with the same predisposition.  Even Rodgers has a few wild ones in most games.

[John from Riverside]

6 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

My bad. He wasn't on my list due to not having thrown enough passes yet. 

 

He's second from dead last there.

The question is why are you evaluating a rookie QB 5 games in?   That is the better question.

1 minute ago, Success said:

If we’re going to focus on stats, can we at least mention that we’re one of the nfl leaders for dropped passes?

 

And I’m not even sure that counts plays like the tipped pass from Holmes.  But it definitely counts the dime to Foster that would have been a 60 yard TD.

 

He starts out with an inaccurate rep, so any grounder or floater instantly makes people think, we’ll, there it is.  But watch other games with the same predisposition.  Even Rodgers has a few wild ones in most games.

I actually thought Josh was pretty inaccurate this past game......

 

but

 

It is amazing how a good wide receiver can scoop up a low pass and make something happen with it.....and then you have Kelvin Benjamin who wont even give the effort to come back for the ball.

 

 

[jrober38]

5 minutes ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

 

We all knew there would be growing pains with Allen. Are you really that shocked? And like I said before when you have 48 runs versus 19 passes then it's pretty hard for the quarterback to amass gaudy stats. What did you draft Allen on your fantasy team?

 

I expected him to look exactly how he's looked so far, which is that he's the worst starting QB in the NFL right now. 

 

19 passes for 82 yards is the problem. 4.3 YPA in 2018 is as bad a passing game as you should see in the NFL anymore. 

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

The question is why are you evaluating a rookie QB 5 games in?   That is the better question.

The fact that Ryan Fitzpatrick is Top 10 in a bunch of QB statistical categories and no longer starting should be enough for people to realize you shouldn't make definitive statements about any QB, let alone a rookie, after 5 games.

[John from Riverside]

1 minute ago, jrober38 said:

 

I expected him to look exactly how he's looked so far, which is that he's the worst starting QB in the NFL right now. 

 

19 passes for 82 yards is the problem. 4.3 YPA in 2018 is as bad a passing game as you should see in the NFL anymore. 

If you expect it then why are you bitching?

[TheElectricCompany]

11 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Unless the data is, you know, wrong. 

 

That's the Josh Allen way. 

We explain away every reason why his statistics have been terrible. 

That's how it was at Wyoming, and it's certainly happening here. 

 

 

Edited October 9, 2018 by TheElectricCompany

[jrober38]

4 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

The question is why are you evaluating a rookie QB 5 games in?   That is the better question.

 

Because he looks worse than the other rookie QBs I'm watching. 

 

When your QB is the worst QB in the league, you should be evaluating everything they do. 

 

When you're the worst, you have to get a lot better just to be average.