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Dablitzkrieg

Illegal formation Penalty question

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What was the issue?  My count were 4 of them in the first half alone.  What was the problem?  Could only listen, but heard bits and pieces of lineman lining up to far back, counting as "too many people in the backfield".  Is this accurate and how is it fixed?

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6 minutes ago, Dablitzkrieg said:

What was the issue?  My count were 4 of them in the first half alone.  What was the problem?  Could only listen, but heard bits and pieces of lineman lining up to far back, counting as "too many people in the backfield".  Is this accurate and how is it fixed?

 

Gives the lineman an advantage - the key is i think the belt of the center

 

A Player of Team A is on his line:

(c) if he is a non-snapper, his helmet must break the vertical plane that passes through the belt line of the snapper.

Section 5 of the Scrimmage Rules

Article 1: Offensive Team. The offensive team must be in compliance with the following at the snap:

(a) It must have seven or more players on its line

 

Receivers have no excuse - they need to know when they are to be on the line, and should be confirming with the line judge.  Even if they're off the line, once they confirm with the line judge i think theyre good to go.

Edited by dneveu
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10 minutes ago, dneveu said:

 

Gives the lineman an advantage - the key is i think the belt of the center

 

A Player of Team A is on his line:

(c) if he is a non-snapper, his helmet must break the vertical plane that passes through the belt line of the snapper.

Section 5 of the Scrimmage Rules

Article 1: Offensive Team. The offensive team must be in compliance with the following at the snap:

(a) It must have seven or more players on its line

 

Receivers have no excuse - they need to know when they are to be on the line, and should be confirming with the line judge.  Even if they're off the line, once they confirm with the line judge i think theyre good to go.

 

So do we know who specifically was being penalized on these calls?  They just gave the penalty without identifying anyone

 

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To have at least three of these, by my count anayway, is ridiculous. That speaks poorly of players and coaches alike.

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Was it the EXACT same one three times? Once I heard them say the WR covered up the TE but I must have missed the other explanations.

Edited by Golden*Wheels

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Just now, Spiderweb said:

To have at least three of these, by my count anayway, is ridiculous. That speaks poorly of players and coaches alike.

Not necessarily. They were trying to get an advantage and they got flagged.  Three is more than you'd expect, but no big deal.  What they need to make sure that they don't do is tip off pass vs. run based on how the line is aligned.

 

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They called that on Seantrel Henderson about 4 times in a preseason game.  It's fairly obvious that the tackle is a tackle and not a slot receiver.  I think it's an unnecessary call.

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Technically speaking, many times the penalty isn't on a specific person (although someone is definitely at fault), but rather on the team.  It's "too many men in the back field", ie 5 or more (you need 7 on the line).  Typically, if the problem is a linemen (non-eligible receiver) not up close enough to the LOS, the ref will identify the culprit.

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55 minutes ago, Golden*Wheels said:

Was it the EXACT same one three times? Once I heard them say the WR covered up the TE but I must have missed the other explanations.

 

No it was two too many men in the backfield and one WR covered up by the TE. 

 

The first too many men in the backfield was a perfectly acceptable penalty too. It was after the third down conversion that KB caught and dropped - they were running to the line not properly set to get a play off before Zimmer could challenge. 1st and 15 > 4th down every single time.  That is the sort of thing New England and New Orleans have been doing for years, sprint to the line don't worry about the formation just snap the damn ball because once you have the opponents can't challenge. If it costs you 5 yards then so be it. I loved that even if it did result in a 5 yard penalty. Think we scored on that drive (second Allen rushing TD) so absolutely worth a 5 yard penalty.

 

 

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It's easy enough to look at the time stamps for the penalties to see what was going on in the game to draw the call (assuming you recorded it).  I'll probably take a look at it later just to see for myself.

 

2nd qtr:

(7:44) 17-J.Allen pass incomplete deep left to 13-K.Benjamin. PENALTY on BUF, Illegal Formation, 5 yards, enforced at MIN 32 - No Play.

(7:29) (Shotgun) 17-J.Allen scrambles right tackle to MIN 32 for 5 yards (91-S.Weatherly). PENALTY on BUF, Illegal Formation, 5 yards, enforced at MIN 37 - No Play.

(1:24) 33-C.Ivory up the middle to MIN 47 for 3 yards (20-M.Alexander). PENALTY on BUF, Illegal Formation, 5 yards, enforced at 50 - No Play.

 

Edited by The Wiz

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Between this continually happening and the volleyball pass/run we were trying to argue was an incomplete pass - the feeling I got was that Daboll was trying to emulate Bill Belichick. 

 

It seemed to me like he was trying to put out formations and plays that he felt were gray areas in the rulebook he could take advantage of. Unfortunately, the refs just weren't having it. If it was something they were unsure of - they weren't going to let it go.

Edited by BillsFanForever19

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2 hours ago, Spiderweb said:

To have at least three of these, by my count anayway, is ridiculous. That speaks poorly of players and coaches alike.

I agree..i think one was on the WR which is inexcuseable because all he has to do before the snap is look at the line judge who will let him know if he is lined up OK. That's something WRs have been doong since High School.

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2 hours ago, Golden*Wheels said:

Was it the EXACT same one three times? Once I heard them say the WR covered up the TE but I must have missed the other explanations.

I could have been wrong, then, my fault.  Again, just heard it on the radio and Murphy screws up so much, it may have been a mistake.

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Does this question go back to the thread on Zay's mom tweeting he has to tell benjamin where to line up.  At one point yesterday there was mention of Benjamin gettining into it on the sideline with his position coach.  I am wondering if this is after one of the penalties and the problems are linked.

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I did see one time during the telecast, 2 other Bills receivers yelling at KB to lineup correctly.  What a disappointment he has been...

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1 hour ago, Dablitzkrieg said:

I could have been wrong, then, my fault.  Again, just heard it on the radio and Murphy screws up so much, it may have been a mistake.

Hey just because announcers on TV said something doesn't mean it was right either!

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4 hours ago, The Wiz said:

It's easy enough to look at the time stamps for the penalties to see what was going on in the game to draw the call (assuming you recorded it).  I'll probably take a look at it later just to see for myself.

 

2nd qtr:

(7:44) 17-J.Allen pass incomplete deep left to 13-K.Benjamin. PENALTY on BUF, Illegal Formation, 5 yards, enforced at MIN 32 - No Play.

(7:29) (Shotgun) 17-J.Allen scrambles right tackle to MIN 32 for 5 yards (91-S.Weatherly). PENALTY on BUF, Illegal Formation, 5 yards, enforced at MIN 37 - No Play.

(1:24) 33-C.Ivory up the middle to MIN 47 for 3 yards (20-M.Alexander). PENALTY on BUF, Illegal Formation, 5 yards, enforced at 50 - No Play.

 

So I decided to clip all three calls and here they are in order.  All 3 were called too many men in the backfield.  Not exactly sure what I'm looking for but this is how they were lined up.  Sorry for the small images, upload limit and all.

 

play1.jpg.b58fb2f975db2693314ef79db446227a.jpg

play2.jpg.75f3f1da01747e8123162fd8986b5750.jpg

play3.jpg.b5142931b5b97dd01ef99ddf1d25a2a7.jpg

Edited by The Wiz

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5 hours ago, Spiderweb said:

To have at least three of these, by my count anayway, is ridiculous. That speaks poorly of players and coaches alike.

 

I honestly think they were testing the refs to see what they could get away with in the future. Game was effectively over anyway, see if you can learn to cheat a little for the next game.

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There need to be 7 men on the LOS, so it looks like the receivers' fault in those images. I'm not sure what advantages the receivers would gain from lining up a little farther back. I guess it would help against press coverage.

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Just now, LikeIGiveADarn said:

 

I honestly think they were testing the refs to see what they could get away with in the future. Game was effectively over anyway, see if you can learn to cheat a little for the next game.

My question is why is a wr not lining up on the line an advantage?  Honestly asking because it just seems something inconsequential that a person is 1-2 ft behind the line.

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Just now, The Wiz said:

My question is why is a wr not lining up on the line an advantage?  Honestly asking because it just seems something inconsequential that a person is 1-2 ft behind the line. 

 

on a screen, they are further back from where the DB can be, giving them more time to collect the ball.

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2 minutes ago, LikeIGiveADarn said:

 

on a screen, they are further back from where the DB can be, giving them more time to collect the ball.

That's fair.  Still feel like it's a weak call/penalty unless they are lining up well behind the line.

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It seems to me that I see illegal formations many times during NFL games.  A slot receiver isn’t far enough off the line, or a tackle is a little too far off the line, etc.  I thought it was a little weird that these things were being called since it seems to occur so frequently throughout the league.

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1st pic, you've got 2 receivers on the right, both off the LOS.  One needs to be on it.

In the 2nd pic, 3 on the left are all off the LOS; one needs to be on it.

In the 3rd, I'd say the problem is a bit different.  Not too many in the backfield, but rather I assume just an illegal formation.  Newhouse (who presumably is an eligible receiver on this play) & Benjamin are both on the LOS & one should be off for Newhouse to be eligible.

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