Who wants to try and win this year, and who wants to see development?

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

20 minutes ago, Green Lightning said:

Apparently so. We can't let facts get in the way.

That would be silly. 

[Albany,n.y.]

You do what the 2004 NY Giants did.  They started the veteran (Warner) the 1st 9 games.  Then at 5-4, on a 2 game losing streak, they threw in Eli Manning, even though he wasn't ready.  It worked out well & the Giants won 2 Super Bowls and Manning is still their QB in 2018.  The rest of the story is Eli lost his 1st 6 games, sometimes looking totally lost in his 1st 4 starts.  In the last 3 games of the season, the light came on and even though it took until the season finale for the Giants to win their 6th game, the experience was invaluable to Manning.  The next year the Giants won the NFC East going 11-5.  

 

The goal is to become Super Bowl champs, not mollify the fans who don't have the patience to go to a game and see the team lose even though in a year or two that loss will have helped build a championship contender and an eventual champion. 

[3rdand12]

22 hours ago, reddogblitz said:

 

Amen and double Amen.

 

I just wanna win as many games as possible. while many were pissed because we went to playoffs last year and lost in the first round.  I thought it was awesome because it made the stretch run of November and December fun for once.  I want to do it again this year.  Winning is fun.  Losing sucks.

 

Besides, I don't know about the rest of yall, but I'm getting older by the minute. I've done enough losing for one lifetime and I've only been a bills fan since 1996.

 

 

every bit of this.

But as Jauranimo said, they are not exclusive.

 Trying to win every day is the cadence. Winning the games will come.

But never let off the gas when building a Team. 

 Rebuilding is going to take hold and bear fruit ( i hope) after next off season.

 Till then ? play to win with what god gave ya

Edited August 28, 2018 by 3rdand12

[reddogblitz]

Just now, 3rdand12 said:

every bit of this.

But as Jauranimo said, they are not exclusive.

 Trying to win every day is the cadence. Winning the games will come.

But never let off the gas when building a Team. 

 Rebuilding is going to take hold and bear fruit ( i hope) after next off season.

 Till then play to win with what god gave ya

 

If I had any confidence that the Bills could purposefully take a step back in order to take a step forward I might be for it.  But I don't.  It took us many years trying to recover from Gailey's first 4-12 "rebuilding" season.

 

Besides, we need players that know how to win.  You only that if they win.

 

Just win. 

[PlayoffsPlease]

6 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Outside of stats, what is production?  How are you measuring it?

 

NP played 2 series (game 1) with and against 1st team players.  He threw a TD in 1 and a pick in the next.  That was it.  Is it meaningful that he was never facing the pressure JA was facing Sunday while he racked up "amazingly consistent" productivity against players who won't make the rosters of teams he played?

 

My point is that, for me (not being privy to practice sessions), it's hard to say that a guy who hasn't been challenged this preseason in any significant way has actually demonstrated superiority against Allen. 

 

Allen won't learn the game or correct his issues by watching, from the sidelines, a guy who has a half game career under his belt.

We have a  bingo!

[Mr. WEO]

26 minutes ago, Albany,n.y. said:

You do what the 2004 NY Giants did.  They started the veteran (Warner) the 1st 9 games.  Then at 5-4, on a 2 game losing streak, they threw in Eli Manning, even though he wasn't ready.  It worked out well & the Giants won 2 Super Bowls and Manning is still their QB in 2018.  The rest of the story is Eli lost his 1st 6 games, sometimes looking totally lost in his 1st 4 starts.  In the last 3 games of the season, the light came on and even though it took until the season finale for the Giants to win their 6th game, the experience was invaluable to Manning.  The next year the Giants won the NFC East going 11-5.  

 

The goal is to become Super Bowl champs, not mollify the fans who don't have the patience to go to a game and see the team lose even though in a year or two that loss will have helped build a championship contender and an eventual champion. 

 

 

Fine.  Go call Kurt Warner and see if he's available.

 

At this point, Peterman isn't even Warner the grocery bagger.

[Warcodered]

2 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

Fine.  Go call Kurt Warner and see if he's available.

 

At this point, Peterman isn't even Warner the grocery bagger.

Yeah there is probably a difference between sitting behind Peterman who has only started 2 games and Kurt Warner who's won a Super Bowl.

 

So looking at this whole argument the idea is that initially Peterman gives you a better chance to win in early games but Allen won't develop as quickly. Alternatively starting Allen will have lower chances of winning initially while he'll develop quicker.

 

So my thoughts on this are the whole point is to win that last game in February and the more Allen develops the better the chances of that. So I guess the question comes down to for me whether Allen has worse odds than Peterman of winning for so long that the Bills get disqualified from the Playoffs otherwise he should probably start.

[PlayoffsPlease]

22 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

Fine.  Go call Kurt Warner and see if he's available.

 

At this point, Peterman isn't even Warner the grocery bagger.

Mr. Weo is on fire. Everyone study his posts. Adopt his views. This will bring peace and tranquility to TBD. 

[Green Lightning]

31 minutes ago, PlayoffsPlease said:

Mr. Weo is on fire. Everyone study his posts. Adopt his views. This will bring peace and tranquility to TBD. 

If only we all understood that volume and bile were greater than logic we would all live together in his world peacefully!

[PlayoffsPlease]

13 minutes ago, Green Lightning said:

If only we all understood that volume and bile were greater than logic we would all live together in his world peacefully!

Just follow Mr. Weo's lead and you should be fine. 

[Mr. WEO]

52 minutes ago, PlayoffsPlease said:

Mr. Weo is on fire. Everyone study his posts. Adopt his views. This will bring peace and tranquility to TBD. 

 

 

namaste...

20 minutes ago, Green Lightning said:

If only we all understood that volume and bile were greater than logic we would all live together in his world peacefully!

 

There's really no bile in my posts on this.  Pretty straightforward reasoning.

[Solomon Grundy]

Win

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Warcodered said:

Yeah there is probably a difference between sitting behind Peterman who has only started 2 games and Kurt Warner who's won a Super Bowl.

 

So looking at this whole argument the idea is that initially Peterman gives you a better chance to win in early games but Allen won't develop as quickly. Alternatively starting Allen will have lower chances of winning initially while he'll develop quicker.

 

So my thoughts on this are the whole point is to win that last game in February and the more Allen develops the better the chances of that. So I guess the question comes down to for me whether Allen has worse odds than Peterman of winning for so long that the Bills get disqualified from the Playoffs otherwise he should probably start.

 

I agree except I really don't see where it became clear that NP gives the Bills the best chance to win beginning week 1.

 

Backup doing backup stuff.

[3rdand12]

 Our Dear Mr Weo ? I enjoy his temperament and sense of fun plus some chuckles in between. and don't be fooled. Likely a Bills Fan 

58 minutes ago, PlayoffsPlease said:

Mr. Weo is on fire. Everyone study his posts. Adopt his views. This will bring peace and tranquility to TBD. 

is this The Hypnotoad speaking ?

[Warcodered]

2 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

I agree except I really don't see where it became clear that NP gives the Bills the best chance to win beginning week 1.

 

Backup doing backup stuff.

I'm not saying that's accurate so much as that is the argument being made. I was mostly making the point that whatever short term gains you might get from not starting Allen might not be greater than the gains you get further into the season with Allen.

[Mr. WEO]

8 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

I'm not saying that's accurate so much as that is the argument being made. I was mostly making the point that whatever short term gains you might get from not starting Allen might not be greater than the gains you get further into the season with Allen.

 

 

The problem with the "just start NP until JA is ready" argument is obvious:  what happens if the Bills lose half or more of their games in the first 6-8 weeks behind NP?  THAT'S the time to push JA into the deep end?  Go in and there and salvage the season!!

 

Why is that a better time to drop him in?  Wouldn't it be better to have him start (and possibly lose the same amount of games in that same period) week 1?  

 

NP isn't Kurt Warner.  He's not Brett Favre, Tom Brady, Drew Brees.  You start your top 10 draft pick at QB, unless one of these types of vets is on the roster.

Edited August 28, 2018 by Mr. WEO

[3rdand12]

11 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

I'm not saying that's accurate so much as that is the argument being made. I was mostly making the point that whatever short term gains you might get from not starting Allen might not be greater than the gains you get further into the season with Allen.

It is a close argument really. There is No proven formula. Each QB is as individual as another. Coachings staff and how they synergize with the Rookie.
 

Its sound small and selfish

 I don't want Allen to get physically mauled and injured, or mentally and emotionally broken from having  very very poor blocking and WRs who cannot come free soon enough if at all.

Yikes.
I would prefer they sacrifice the guy they paid to come on board AJ M. sorry kid.
By that time they should know where Allen is. and still have Peterman if another sacrifice is needed.

Edited August 28, 2018 by 3rdand12

[Warcodered]

8 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

The problem with the "just start NP until JA is ready" argument is obvious:  what happens if the Bills lose half or more of their games in the first 6-8 weeks behind NP?  THAT'S the time to push JA into the deep end?  Go in and there and salvage the season!!

 

Why is that a better time to drop him in?  Wouldn't it be better to have him start (and possibly lose the same amount of games in that same period) week 1?  

 

NP isn't Kurt Warner.  He's not Brett Favre, Tom Brady, Drew Brees.  You start your top 10 draft pick at QB, unless one of these types of vets is on the roster.

 

I'd say that is a big issue with that as one of the things I've seen repeated over and over again on this board is how the first four games of this season are going to rough. Nathan Peterman with only two career starts is going to pull something off there?

 

5 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said:

It is a close argument really. There is No proven formula. Each QB is as individual as another. Coachings staff and how they synergize with the Rookie.
 

Its sound small and selfish

 I don't want Allen to get physically mauled and injured, or mentally and emotionally broken from having  very very poor blocking and WRs who cannot come free soon enough if at all.

Yikes.
I would prefer they sacrifice the guy they paid to come on board AJ M. sorry kid.
By that time they should know where Allen is. and still have Peterman if another sacrifice is needed.

The problem I see with that is they already wanted to see him against starters in Pre Season game 3 how else are they to gauge his readiness than to play him.

[Mr. WEO]

15 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said:

It is a close argument really. There is No proven formula. Each QB is as individual as another. Coachings staff and how they synergize with the Rookie.
 

Its sound small and selfish

 I don't want Allen to get physically mauled and injured, or mentally and emotionally broken from having  very very poor blocking and WRs who cannot come free soon enough if at all.

Yikes.
I would prefer they sacrifice the guy they paid to come on board AJ M. sorry kid.
By that time they should know where Allen is. and still have Peterman if another sacrifice is needed.

 

 

JA is faster and stronger and bigger than Peterman.  He will suffer less behind that line as it gets better.  NP has really yet to play behind that line in any meaningful way.  

[3rdand12]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

JA is faster and stronger and bigger than Peterman.  He will suffer less behind that line as it gets better.  NP has really yet to play behind that line in any meaningful way.  

i am not sure anyone has , i suppose then.

 every rep should have some meaning and reason why.

1 hour ago, Warcodered said:

 

I'd say that is a big issue with that as one of the things I've seen repeated over and over again on this board is how the first four games of this season are going to rough. Nathan Peterman with only two career starts is going to pull something off there?

 

The problem I see with that is they already wanted to see him against starters in Pre Season game 3 how else are they to gauge his readiness than to play him.

Is that how you feel about Peterman last year ?

 

 perhaps is more about getting Dabolls offense up and running. Even Allen said he had trouble diagnosing the Bengals. and we saw that. In hindsight for sure.
There is more to the Offense than QB of course.
Did you notice the issue with Allens cadence and Millers errors. He was not the only one who left early or late.
 

Patience, grasshoppers

[danc]

I'm off the opinion that JA isn't quite ready to start. I do think he can still learn by watching a defense that is using their full play book.  MC and maybe even the QB coach should be right next to him explaining each defensive look and how they might be trying to disguise the defense.  They can explain each presnap formation and what they are trying to do.  I think he can learn this way a little easier than being under center.  He can tell them what he sees and they can tell him if he is right or wrong.  I think this might benefit him for the first few games of the season.  Then if NP faulters and JA is reading defenses well from the sideline he can earn starts.

 

I know some will disagree, but I think he can stand to learn a llittle more by watching rather than learning while he gets smacked around.

[Mr. WEO]

10 hours ago, 3rdand12 said:

i am not sure anyone has , i suppose then.

 

 

 

Josh Allen would disagree with you there.

[_Underscore_]

If I could only pick one, I think I would prefer ending the year knowing that we are out of quarterback purgatory to a 2018 that looks like last year.

 

Don't get me wrong, ending the drought was great and there were some good moments.  For me, watching most of the games last year was a bit like watching a fighter climb into the ring with the plan of bobbing and weaving for ten rounds and hoping he throws enough powerless jabs to out-point the opponent.  Ugg -- painful.  "He who shall not be named" throwing for 180 yards and hoping somebody on the defense can stymie the opponent as they drive down the field in the waning seconds.  Still, it was a "winning" season.

 

A team that has a good passing game has at least a "puncher's chance" in ANY game.

 

This management has made a lot of bold choices with high upside -- JA being the primary one, and the pieces for the rebuild are only half in place (IMHO).  When/if the White/Allen/Edmunds/Phillips/et.al. crew  matures, and they add to it with next year's class (some blue-chip OL help for example) and sprinkle in a select free agent or two, we could have something special.  However, having an answer at the QB position is disproportionately important to the long term success of the team.  We have a great candidate, and I'm brimming with optimism.  I want to see development.

 

Just for me -- I'd rather know we are off the QB merry-go-round for the next decade -- even at the expense of 2018.

[Boatdrinks]

Can’t there be development and trying to win ? Coaches and players try to win every game. It’s in their DNA. 

[Fadingpain]

14 hours ago, danc said:

I'm off the opinion that JA isn't quite ready to start. I do think he can still learn by watching a defense that is using their full play book.  MC and maybe even the QB coach should be right next to him explaining each defensive look and how they might be trying to disguise the defense.  They can explain each presnap formation and what they are trying to do.  I think he can learn this way a little easier than being under center.  He can tell them what he sees and they can tell him if he is right or wrong.  I think this might benefit him for the first few games of the season.  Then if NP faulters and JA is reading defenses well from the sideline he can earn starts.

 

I know some will disagree, but I think he can stand to learn a llittle more by watching rather than learning while he gets smacked around.

I think it is highly unlikely that a QB can improve by watching.  He will learn by doing.

 

There is one caveat to this: I do think a certain individual could be overwhelmed by the entire process, and literally need more practice time just to get the basics under his belt.  Calling plays, being familiar with the playbook, controlling the huddle, etc.  I do think time, practice, and watching could help calm a player like that down and make him improve in those aspects of the game.

 

However, Allen does not appear to suffer in these areas!  He seems very poised and calm, he has had control of the huddle, and he has even shown a feel for the clock and game conditions while playing.  He's not the type who will benefit by sitting.

 

The areas where he needs improvement will only come from playing in real games.  He needs to deal with real pressure, real defenses, and develop habits for reading those defenses and going through his progressions, while focusing on his footwork, to deliver the ball accurately.

 

That is a repetitive exercise type of activity and you don't engage in it by watching.

 

It's like saying you will learn to run 6 minute miles for that upcoming marathon by reading extensively on the topic of long distance running. bull ****.  You will learn to run 6 minute miles by running 6 minute miles, or trying to at least.  And nothing else.

 

 

[Boatdrinks]

I recall Jordan Palmer stating that all QBs would benefit by not playing their rookie year. I believe it was at the USC pro day. Anyway, he’s likely not talking so much about improvement that you’d get playing in games. Rather, being better prepared to perform when they do get their first game action. 

[Fadingpain]

11 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

I recall Jordan Palmer stating that all QBs would benefit by not playing their rookie year. I believe it was at the USC pro day. Anyway, he’s likely not talking so much about improvement that you’d get playing in games. Rather, being better prepared to perform when they do get their first game action. 

That's more to what I speaking about in the post above.  I.E., for a guy who is a bit rattled, going through the process longer without actually playing could be very useful.  "Rattled" may be too strong a term, but if a guy is a bit overwhelmed, just going through preparations during the week, suiting up on game day, experiencing a huge crowd, the whole thing...the more you get used to that, the better you'll be.

 

But Allen seems to have adjusted well that aspect of the game already.  He's a step beyond that now.  He needs playing time.

 

That's my theory at least.

 

 

[Boatdrinks]

Just now, Fadingpain said:

That's more to what I speaking about in the post above.  I.E., for a guy who is a bit rattled, going through the process longer without actually playing could be very useful.  "Rattled" may be too strong a term, but if a guy is a bit overwhelmed, just going through preparations during the week, suiting up on game day, experiencing a huge crowd, the whole thing...the more you get used to that, the better you'll be.

 

But Allen seems to have adjusted well that aspect of the game already.  He's a step beyond that now.  He needs playing time.

 

That's my theory at least.

 

 

Understandable take. I believe if the OL looked solid, Allen would have had his moments vs CIN and would likely be starting opening day over what else they have at QB. 

[Dadonkadonk]

1. Start Allen

2. Trade for Mack

3. Trade AJ for a C/G

4. Cut DeMarco and Ducasse

5. Keep an extra TE and WR

6. Run New England quick passing game

7. Hughes/Mack split time at OLB/DE and put Lorax on special teams

8. Keep 4 RB and have TE or Murphy act as FB when needed

9. Cut bait on PED Murphy

 

Win now and win more in the future 

Edited August 30, 2018 by Dadonkadonk

[3rdand12]

10 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

Josh Allen would disagree with you there.

I might hope so actually : )

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

4 hours ago, Boatdrinks said:

Can’t there be development and trying to win ? Coaches and players try to win every game. It’s in their DNA. 

 

...OF COURSE......that is their damn mantra......but the irrational exuberance gang wants an expects instantaneous results.....good luck with that nonsense....ain't happenin'...

[_Underscore_]

7 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

the irrational exuberance gang wants an expects instantaneous results

 

True, but you know what?  I don't agree with them exactly (I'd sit JA for a month or so to develop), but I can dig the "irrational exuberance gang", and prefer it to the "we're doomed cadre".  This board is a lot nicer place lately with a little optimism.  Arguments between "he's ready now" and "he'll be ready soon" are a breath of fresh air after the last few years!

[MJS]

Both please.

[Steptide]

I went back and watched all of Josh Allen's throws vs all of Peterman's throws. At this point I'm not even considering McCarron as the starter. 

 

Anyway, I will be SHOCKED if Peterman isn't the starter. Watching the throws over and over, it's very apparent that Peterman is just so far ahead of Allen at this point. I'd even go as far as to say that throw to Benjamin on the sideline against Carolina was/is much more impressive than Allen's td against the Browns. I wish there was a way I could post video of all Allen and Peterman's throws. 

[reddogblitz]

3 hours ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...OF COURSE......that is their damn mantra......but the irrational exuberance gang wants an expects instantaneous results.....good luck with that nonsense....ain't happenin'...

 

It worked last year.

[Dadonkadonk]

7 hours ago, Steptide said:

I went back and watched all of Josh Allen's throws vs all of Peterman's throws. At this point I'm not even considering McCarron as the starter. 

 

Anyway, I will be SHOCKED if Peterman isn't the starter. Watching the throws over and over, it's very apparent that Peterman is just so far ahead of Allen at this point. I'd even go as far as to say that throw to Benjamin on the sideline against Carolina was/is much more impressive than Allen's td against the Browns. I wish there was a way I could post video of all Allen and Peterman's throws. 

You must have missed the dropped pick six.  Peterman is Trent Edwards with a worse arm.  It really is sad. He probably knows what to do but simply doesn’t have the talent.  Best case is he is a six year back up.

[GreggTX]

We will have a top 5 pick in the next draft, so we might as well hope for development.