ESPN Insider 2017 Re-Drafts Top 5 (Mahomes)

[Jamie Muellers Ghost]

Mahomes goes 4.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/22182639/redrafting-first-five-picks-2017-nfl-draft

 

 

 

[Johnny Hammersticks]

What did Trubisky do to show that he still belonged in the top 5?  He looked terrible, IMO.

[YoloinOhio]

10 minutes ago, Johnny Hammersticks said:

What did Trubisky do to show that he still belonged in the top 5?  He looked terrible, IMO.

At least he played... what did Mahomes do to go 6 spots higher? He played in one meaningless game.

Edited January 24, 2018 by YoloinOhio

[Doc]

Just now, YoloinOhio said:

At least he played... what did Mahomes do to go 6 spots higher? He played in one meaningless game.

I was just going to post this. 

[BillsFan4]

6 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

At least he played... what did Mahomes do to go 6 spots higher? He played in one meaningless game.

 

6 minutes ago, Doc said:

I was just going to post this. 

 

My thoughts exactly. 

[DallasMac]

1 minute ago, Doc said:

I was just going to post this. 

And threw a pick with no tds

[Jay_Fixit]

Oh dear lord....hopefully this is in pencil.

 

Mahomes. Lol.

 

 

Edited January 24, 2018 by Jay_Fixit

[YoloinOhio]

9 minutes ago, DallasMac said:

And threw a pick with no tds

But did you see the velocity on that pick? HOF.

[VirginiaMike]

12 hours ago, Jamie Muellers Ghost said:

Mahomes goes 4.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/22182639/redrafting-first-five-picks-2017-nfl-draft

 

 

 

I don't see what Mahomes did to warrant moving up while Fourtnette lead his team to an unexpected championship game performance and is moved out of the top 5.    

[racketmaster]

The quarterback is such a critical position that I don't think McDermott wanted to commit to a young qb without having his GM in place. He would have had to trust Whaley to make the right qb choice and I don't believe that McDermott had that faith in Whaley (that's pretty clear as he was fired after the draft). I think McDermott wanted to get all their ducks in order (GM and new scouting staff) to allow them to make the critical decision their jobs will all be tied to instead of letting a lame duck staff make that decision. 

[plenzmd1]

In terms of Mahomes, i am just guessing here, but Riddick loves, loves, loves him some Mahomes. I think Andy Reid is close with a lot of those ESPN guys, and they all talk about "sources are saying Mahomes is the real deal, lighting up practice, was a steal at 10, next top-level franchise QB" .

 

Just a quess

[NastyNateSoldiers]

Mahomes is a beast a gunslingers gunslinger.  He has the arm Josh Allen has but he knows how to use it.  He made some jaw dropping throws vs Denver in that finale . He still needs development though but he is on his way.  

[BrooklynBills]

13 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

At least he played... what did Mahomes do to go 6 spots higher? He played in one meaningless game.

Great offensive coach bias.

 

Basically, because Andy Reid traded up to get him, he must be great. It's exactly what happened after the draft. Analysts who had him pegged as a 2nd/3rd round guy were praising the pick after it happened basically because of Reid.

[YoloinOhio]

1 hour ago, VirginiaMike said:

I don't see what Mahomes did to warrant moving up while Fourtnette lead his team to an unexpected championship game performance and is moved out of the top 5.    

I agree that they are underselling Fournette’s contribution to that team’s success. 

[SoFFacet]

1 hour ago, VirginiaMike said:

I don't see what Mahomes did to warrant moving up while Fourtnette lead his team to an unexpected championship game performance and is moved out of the top 5.    

 

Fournette did not "lead" his team anywhere. He's marginally better than Yeldon. Not even a top-3 RB in his own draft class (Kamara, Hunt, Cook), let alone a top-10 RB in the league as some people seem to think. Jacksonville's defense carried them to the AFCCG. Drafting Fournette instead of a QB was a catastrophic mistake that is currently being masked by one season of unsustainable success. Just imagining the state their franchise would be in with Watson or Mahomes instead of Fournette should make Jaguar fans cry. 

[Doc]

Yeah, didn't Fournette average under 4.0 YPC?

[dollars 2 donuts]

Tre White could be in that top 5.  No way out of the top 10 if they went that far.

[H2o]

Mahomes still hasn't proven anything. We'll know by year 3. I still say the hype isn't warranted, but time will tell. 

[starrymessenger]

2 hours ago, NastyNateSoldiers said:

Mahomes is a beast a gunslingers gunslinger.  He has the arm Josh Allen has but he knows how to use it.  He made some jaw dropping throws vs Denver in that finale . He still needs development though but he is on his way.  

 

Another reason why Mahomes should probably move up is mechanics. The thing that hurt him was poor mechanics. It's pretty much the main reason some folks were against him. Although the sample size is small, it looked very much like he had those issues under much better control. It was clear that the Chiefs had spent a lot of time working with him to correct those flaws. Iron out those problems and there is a lot more to like.

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, starrymessenger said:

 

Another reason why Mahomes should probably move up is mechanics. The thing that hurt him was poor mechanics. It's pretty much the main reason some folks were against him. Although the sample size is small, it looked very much like he had those issues under much better control. It was clear that the Chiefs had spent a lot of time working with him to correct those flaws. Iron out those problems and there is a lot more to like.

 

There was still some flappy back foot against the Broncos but he had literally the worst footwork I have ever evaluated coming out of college.  He isn't "fixed" yet but there was tangible improvement.  

 

Though I agree with those asking how his Denver game can shoot him into the top 5 of a do-over.  That is confusing to me.  

Edited January 24, 2018 by GunnerBill

[NastyNateSoldiers]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

There was still some flappy back foot against the Broncos but he had literally the worst footwork I have ever evaluated coming out of college.  He isn't "fixed" yet but there was tangible improvement.  

 

Though I agree with those asking how his Denver game can shoot him into the top 5 of a do-over.  That is confusing to me.  

Mechanics can be taught,  the mindset he has is more valuable to his growth . If he's teachable which it looks that way he will be very good maybe even scary good.

 

I was saying this last yr its something i never said bout any QB i ever scouted he looks like a Cyborg like a mix of great QBs. One play he'll do something that Russ does, the next something Rodgers does. Against Denver on a 3rd and 15th he had a defender riding him down on his back and threw the ball on a rope for a 1st down,  Ala Big Ben. He also has some Cutler in him he needs to clean that up. Lol

[DallasMac]

On 1/24/2018 at 8:59 AM, SoFFacet said:

 

Fournette did not "lead" his team anywhere. He's marginally better than Yeldon. Not even a top-3 RB in his own draft class (Kamara, Hunt, Cook), let alone a top-10 RB in the league as some people seem to think. Jacksonville's defense carried them to the AFCCG. Drafting Fournette instead of a QB was a catastrophic mistake that is currently being masked by one season of unsustainable success. Just imagining the state their franchise would be in with Watson or Mahomes instead of Fournette should make Jaguar fans cry. 

Cook played what 4 games?  And he's better than Fournette?  

[JerseyBills]

On 1/23/2018 at 7:16 PM, Johnny Hammersticks said:

What did Trubisky do to show that he still belonged in the top 5?  He looked terrible, IMO.

Looks like a bust to me . I think we saw the golden era in QBs and won't see that type of quality at the position for quite some time. I think expectations should be lowered for young qbs

10 minutes ago, DallasMac said:

Cook played what 4 games?  And he's better than Fournette?  

He very well could be but definitely wasn't this year. Fournette is SO much hype. So 1 dimensional, isn't a big threat in pass game. I'd love him as a late 2nd or 3rd rounder but he is vastly overrated imo. Look at what he did against us and NE, not much , 1 dimensional

[dma0034]

Amazing that the rookie RBs - Kamara and Hunt and White aren't on this list.

[DallasMac]

2 hours ago, JerseyBills said:

Looks like a bust to me . I think we saw the golden era in QBs and won't see that type of quality at the position for quite some time. I think expectations should be lowered for young qbs

He very well could be but definitely wasn't this year. Fournette is SO much hype. So 1 dimensional, isn't a big threat in pass game. I'd love him as a late 2nd or 3rd rounder but he is vastly overrated imo. Look at what he did against us and NE, not much , 1 dimensional

I don't disagree that he's a little one dimensional but he also had some very good games.  I think he cooled of a bit bc he was a rookie and the offense itself became one dimensional.  Teams were trying to make Bortles beat them by committing to stop the run.  Also he was dealing with a quad injury later in the season.

Edited January 26, 2018 by DallasMac

[JerseyBills]

1 hour ago, DallasMac said:

I don't disagree that he's a little one dimensional but he also had some very good games.  I think he cooled of a bit bc he was a rookie and the offense itself became one dimensional.  Teams were trying to make Bortles beat them by committing to stop the run.  Also he was dealing with a quad injury later in the season.

Yes that's very true. And for a rookie RB that got playing time from week 1, that takes a brutal toll on the body. Goes from combine , all draft stuff,to off-season and I'm sure by December he was just beat up. He's never played that many games in a season and whatnot. I think he'll have a successful career and all, just feel he's very over hyped.

[SoFFacet]

15 hours ago, DallasMac said:

Cook played what 4 games?  And he's better than Fournette?  

 

Is it that difficult to conceptualize? 

[Doc]

11 minutes ago, SoFFacet said:

Is it that difficult to conceptualize? 

 

Four games means almost nothing.  And then he got injured. 

[SoFFacet]

16 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Four games means almost nothing.  And then he got injured. 

 

Who would you take going forward, Deshone Kizer or Desean Watson? 

[Doc]

13 minutes ago, SoFFacet said:

Who would you take going forward, Deshone Kizer or Desean Watson? 

 

Come on, that's easy.  Watson showed something, as did both Cook and Fournette.  Kizer...not so much.

[SoFFacet]

Cook played great. Fournette logged a season as a league average starting RB. 

[Chuck Wagon]

I think this is much less about Mahomes being the 4th best player in the draft on a redraft and much more about Jacksonville realizing Bortles clearly isn't the guy and taking a swing on a QB when they had the chance.

[SouthNYfan]

On 1/24/2018 at 10:05 AM, dollars 2 donuts said:

Tre White could be in that top 5.  No way out of the top 10 if they went that far.

 

"The Jaguars are so imbalanced that it seems absurd to suggest they needed a defensive player with the No. 4 pick. Lattimore or Tre'Davious White would be fantastic additions to most teams, but Jacksonville already has two outstanding outside corners"

 

Seems they thought so too:)

 

They put lattimore at 5, which I have no issue with, I think he's better than white, but not by much

[DallasMac]

3 hours ago, SoFFacet said:

 

Is it that difficult to conceptualize? 

He had 2 tds in 4 games and broke a 100 yds once.  I'm a big Cook fan but to say he's better than Fournette when he only played 4 games is a little ridiculous.  

[SouthNYfan]

6 minutes ago, DallasMac said:

He had 2 tds in 4 games and broke a 100 yds once.  I'm a big Cook fan but to say he's better than Fournette when he only played 4 games is a little ridiculous.  

 

Except over their first 4 games cook averaged almost 5 ypc vs 3.0 for fourt just using those initial 4.

 

Dalvin averaged 111 all purpose yards and had 1 fumble in 4 games

 

Through his first 4 games, Leonard had 102 all purpose 

 

Fourt, on the season, had 1040 yards on 3.9 ypc for the season, with a 90 yard rush that he got 10% of his season total on one carry.

Subtract that one run, he had 950 yards and a 3.5 average.

 

I'm not going to say one is better, like you said, 4 games isn't enough to say cook is definitely better, but it's not like he has a high bar with fourts' 3.5 ypc to eclipse him

[SoFFacet]

15 minutes ago, DallasMac said:

He had 2 tds in 4 games and broke a 100 yds once.  I'm a big Cook fan but to say he's better than Fournette when he only played 4 games is a little ridiculous.  

 

Why would the fact that he played four games be a factor in whether or not someone thinks he is better? For example almost everyone thinks that Saquon Barkley is better. And he's played zero NFL games. This isn't the same as arguing over who has the greater resume. 

[section122]

19 hours ago, JerseyBills said:

He very well could be but definitely wasn't this year. Fournette is SO much hype. So 1 dimensional, isn't a big threat in pass game. I'd love him as a late 2nd or 3rd rounder but he is vastly overrated imo. Look at what he did against us and NE, not much , 1 dimensional

 

2 hours ago, SoFFacet said:

Cook played great. Fournette logged a season as a league average starting RB. 

 

Fournette's job was to run into the line repeatedly.  He did that very well.  He also had an injury that slowed him in the middle of the year and cost him 3 games.  It is hard to quantify Cook's season over Fournette's as the sample size was so small.  

 

That said I could pick 5 guys easily to be a top 5 and leave Fournette out.  Lattimore, Watson, Our own Tre White, Kamara if a rb is picked, and Jamal Adams.  3 dbs is a bit unreasonable so maybe add a tj watt?  Maybe Cam Robinson?

 

Mahomes and Trubisky shouldn't be in there though at this point.  Maybe after year 3 it looks dumb to not have them in they just didn't do anything last year to warrant them being there now imo.

[DallasMac]

40 minutes ago, SouthNYfan said:

 

Except over their first 4 games cook averaged almost 5 ypc vs 3.0 for fourt just using those initial 4.

 

Dalvin averaged 111 all purpose yards and had 1 fumble in 4 games

 

Through his first 4 games, Leonard had 102 all purpose 

 

Fourt, on the season, had 1040 yards on 3.9 ypc for the season, with a 90 yard rush that he got 10% of his season total on one carry.

Subtract that one run, he had 950 yards and a 3.5 average.

 

I'm not going to say one is better, like you said, 4 games isn't enough to say cook is definitely better, but it's not like he has a high bar with fourts' 3.5 ypc to eclipse him

Fournette also missed 3 games but yes the 3.5 isn't anything special.  He was also on a team that ran the ball a lot and other teams knew that.  Cook had 2 games where he had 12 and 13 carries.  There is no way you can judge the way his season would have gone.  Again, I'm a fan of Cook and think he will be good but it's way too premature to say he is better than Fournette.  

44 minutes ago, SoFFacet said:

 

Why would the fact that he played four games be a factor in whether or not someone thinks he is better? For example almost everyone thinks that Saquon Barkley is better. And he's played zero NFL games. This isn't the same as arguing over who has the greater resume. 

Because players and teams come out on fire all the time and then taper off as the season progresses.  Is it really that hard to understand?  A lot of ppl said Guice was the better back and was going to show it this year.  How'd that play out.  Bottom line is you don't know until they play the games.  Cook hasn't done enough to say he's better than anyone in the NFL at this point.   That's what I'm trying to tell you.  

[JerseyBills]

1 hour ago, section122 said:

 

 

Fournette's job was to run into the line repeatedly.  He did that very well.  He also had an injury that slowed him in the middle of the year and cost him 3 games.  It is hard to quantify Cook's season over Fournette's as the sample size was so small.  

 

That said I could pick 5 guys easily to be a top 5 and leave Fournette out.  Lattimore, Watson, Our own Tre White, Kamara if a rb is picked, and Jamal Adams.  3 dbs is a bit unreasonable so maybe add a tj watt?  Maybe Cam Robinson?

 

Mahomes and Trubisky shouldn't be in there though at this point.  Maybe after year 3 it looks dumb to not have them in they just didn't do anything last year to warrant them being there now imo.

Yea good points. Cook has upside and versatility but like you said,such a small sample size. Tre White is definitely top 10 , Dawkins top 15-20. Not bad getting a stud LT and CB and extra first! No idea how Mahomes is on the list but he definitely has upside at the most crucial position, 

[SouthNYfan]

1 hour ago, DallasMac said:

Fournette also missed 3 games but yes the 3.5 isn't anything special.  He was also on a team that ran the ball a lot and other teams knew that.  Cook had 2 games where he had 12 and 13 carries.  There is no way you can judge the way his season would have gone.  Again, I'm a fan of Cook and think he will be good but it's way too premature to say he is better than Fournette.  

Because players and teams come out on fire all the time and then taper off as the season progresses.  Is it really that hard to understand?  A lot of ppl said Guice was the better back and was going to show it this year.  How'd that play out.  Bottom line is you don't know until they play the games.  Cook hasn't done enough to say he's better than anyone in the NFL at this point.   That's what I'm trying to tell you.  

 

Agree 100%

I was just stating some stats

If I was facing the jags I'd stack against fourt also and make Blake the fake beat me