YoloinOhio Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 (edited) Trubisky may be much better than Cardale, I don't know yet. But many harp on Cardale only starting 11 games. Trubisky has only 12 starts. Cardale has played in 23 total games including backup/mop up time, Trubisky has played in 30 including his backup time. Just a reference point. In QB evaluation for the most part, outside of film, I believe NFL traits outweigh production/stats because you need to take competition level and system into consideration. So I don't care about how many yards he threw for, etc. If Mitch was sitting there when the Bills picked I wouldn't mind if they took him as they need to find a QB more than anything, but I'm not sure if I would "expect" any more out of him than I do out of Cardale at this point. Edited December 22, 2016 by YoloinOhio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jokeman Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 Trubisky may be much better than Cardale, I don't know yet. But many harp on Cardale only starting 11 games. Trubisky has only 12 starts. Cardale has played in 23 total games including backup/mop up time, Trubisky has played in 30 including his backup time. Just a reference point. In QB evaluation for the most part, outside of film, I believe NFL teams outweigh production/stats because you need to take competition level and system into consideration. So I don't care about how many yards he threw for, etc. If Mitch was sitting there when the Bills picked I wouldn't mind if they took him as they need to find a QB more than anything, but I'm not sure if I would "expect" any more out of him than I do out of Cardale at this point. I have a feeling Mitch will be drafted well before the Bills pick comes up in Round 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 I have a feeling Mitch will be drafted well before the Bills pick comes up in Round 1.i believe he will be as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 i believe he will be as wellI think that he goes to the Browns with their 2nd 1st. I wouldn't want to be that team, way too many question marks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 He thought he had his Quarterback in EJ and that an elite playmaker would elevate EJ's play. Clearly that was wrong but the thought process was as you suggested. Trubisky I have not seen a lot of but I am not sold. I will be honest and say I am not even sure what is I am not sold on.... I definitely need to go and watch more of him though.... I haven't seen enough to try and grade him yet. Your point brings up the issue of Whaley's ability to evaluate qbs. EJ should have had a third round grade in that draft year. He was at best a developmental qb who was years away from being a finished product. EJ's flaws of accuracy and reading defenses are the type of flaws that usually are not correctable. The bottom line is that misjudging on the qb talent had repercussions down the line that influenced the direction of the draft and the success of the team. Dak Prescott was a fourth round selection by the Cowboys so we would have had to have taken him in the third round. Whaley took the DT from Ohio State. My point is that opportunities existed for this franchise to acquire good qb prospects. The problem is that the opportunities have not been seized. That is a repeated pattern of action for a position that has to be secured in order to achieve a modicum of success. A generation has gone by and this bedraggled organization still hasn't learned that essential lesson. Enough is enough! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly Allan in MD Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 Your point brings up the issue of Whaley's ability to evaluate qbs. EJ should have had a third round grade in that draft year. He was at best a developmental qb who was years away from being a finished product. EJ's flaws of accuracy and reading defenses are the type of flaws that usually are not correctable. The bottom line is that misjudging on the qb talent had repercussions down the line that influenced the direction of the draft and the success of the team. Dak Prescott was a fourth round selection by the Cowboys so we would have had to have taken him in the third round. Whaley took the DT from Ohio State. My point is that opportunities existed for this franchise to acquire good qb prospects. The problem is that the opportunities have not been seized. That is a repeated pattern of action for a position that has to be secured in order to achieve a modicum of success. A generation has gone by and this bedraggled organization still hasn't learned that essential lesson. Enough is enough! Picking good quarterbacks by this organization is like continually attempting to connect two plus poles of magnets. It ain't gonna happen. And to think we could have had Russell Wilson, among others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 Your point brings up the issue of Whaley's ability to evaluate qbs. EJ should have had a third round grade in that draft year. He was at best a developmental qb who was years away from being a finished product. EJ's flaws of accuracy and reading defenses are the type of flaws that usually are not correctable. The bottom line is that misjudging on the qb talent had repercussions down the line that influenced the direction of the draft and the success of the team. Dak Prescott was a fourth round selection by the Cowboys so we would have had to have taken him in the third round. Whaley took the DT from Ohio State. My point is that opportunities existed for this franchise to acquire good qb prospects. The problem is that the opportunities have not been seized. That is a repeated pattern of action for a position that has to be secured in order to achieve a modicum of success. A generation has gone by and this bedraggled organization still hasn't learned that essential lesson. Enough is enough! We have to be better at evaluating Quarterbacks - no argument from me there. The strategy that led to a reach in a bad class was at least as big a problem as the evaluation of EJ himself. But whilst Whaley has his fingerprints over the EJ pick - the strategy was Buddy's and he was pretty clear about it, he wanted to "build" a team before he got his Quarterback. Most of us I think would prefer to say get the Quarterback and build around him... but then you see the success Dak has had (and I still say Dak was not an elite prospect even if he turns into an elite player) going into a team that was already built around him and it does make you reflect on Buddy's thinking a bit - though of course the reason Dallas could build the team first was precisely because it HAD a quarterback. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jokeman Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 (edited) Picking good quarterbacks by this organization is like continually attempting to connect two plus poles of magnets. It ain't gonna happen. And to think we could have had Russell Wilson, among others. No guaranteeing Wilson has same success here as in Seattle. As to me what makes Russel so valuable is before drafting him the Seahawks landed Bruce Irvin and Bobby Wagner. Edited December 22, 2016 by The Jokeman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 Joe Mixon is returning to OU next season... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaattMaann Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 We have to be better at evaluating Quarterbacks - no argument from me there. The strategy that led to a reach in a bad class was at least as big a problem as the evaluation of EJ himself. But whilst Whaley has his fingerprints over the EJ pick - the strategy was Buddy's and he was pretty clear about it, he wanted to "build" a team before he got his Quarterback. Most of us I think would prefer to say get the Quarterback and build around him... but then you see the success Dak has had (and I still say Dak was not an elite prospect even if he turns into an elite player) going into a team that was already built around him and it does make you reflect on Buddy's thinking a bit - though of course the reason Dallas could build the team first was precisely because it HAD a quarterback. Great post I don't hate the EJ pick because I'd rather swing and miss than strike out looking - evaluate the best you can and make the pick I want us to draft a QB again this year regardless of Tyrod - same thing, evaluate and swing for it Either strategy could work (build the team first or get the QB first) - it's the NFL anything can happen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 I don't hate the EJ pick because I'd rather swing and miss than strike out looking - evaluate the best you can and make the pickThe thing is, we traded down and took EJ. If the Bills brass thought EJ was a franchise qb, they might have been willing to trade UP and take him, or so one would think. They probably thought that Geno Smith was also a hot prospect and were willing to roll the dice on losing Manuel. Either way it was poor scouting and poor building. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Barbarian Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 BB - Watson is very mobile but have you watched him play? Can't see how he would ever not be considered a passer first. Yes I've watched him play and I don't know why Trubisky is rated over him, like I said This class isn't the greatest. There are prospects but need they need work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Barbarian Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 The thing is, we traded down and took EJ. If the Bills brass thought EJ was a franchise qb, they might have been willing to trade UP and take him, or so one would think. They probably thought that Geno Smith was also a hot prospect and were willing to roll the dice on losing Manuel. Either way it was poor scouting and poor building. pretty much, that yr is a lot like this yr. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 Yes I've watched him play and I don't know why Trubisky is rated over him, like I said This class isn't the greatest. There are prospects but need they need work. ok, just didn't understand that one particular comment about Watson at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaaadThingsMan Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 Joe Mixon is returning to OU next season...time heals everything? Less heat next year, its a little hot in the kitchen right now, might be a good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 The thing is, we traded down and took EJ. If the Bills brass thought EJ was a franchise qb, they might have been willing to trade UP and take him, or so one would think. They probably thought that Geno Smith was also a hot prospect and were willing to roll the dice on losing Manuel. Either way it was poor scouting and poor building. I don't subscribe to his view. I think it is an equally reasonable interpretation to think they didn't love any of the Quarterbacks in that class felt EJ was the best of the bunch but understood it was something of a reach and so were trying to maximise their value. Remember they turned down offers to move down further which if they really did have EJ level with Geno or Barkley (I actually think the latter is more likely I don't think the Bills were ever high on Geno) they may well have accepted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOKBILLS Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 Trubisky may be much better than Cardale, I don't know yet. But many harp on Cardale only starting 11 games. Trubisky has only 12 starts. Cardale has played in 23 total games including backup/mop up time, Trubisky has played in 30 including his backup time. Just a reference point. In QB evaluation for the most part, outside of film, I believe NFL traits outweigh production/stats because you need to take competition level and system into consideration. So I don't care about how many yards he threw for, etc. If Mitch was sitting there when the Bills picked I wouldn't mind if they took him as they need to find a QB more than anything, but I'm not sure if I would "expect" any more out of him than I do out of Cardale at this point. Agreed... And if I was Whaley I would take Trubisky if I had the chance...No matter how high they are on Cardale... I have not seen enough film on Trubisky to determine if he worthy of a top 5 pick...I have seen enough to feel he's worthy of a mid 1st...I like what I see so far... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 We have to be better at evaluating Quarterbacks - no argument from me there. The strategy that led to a reach in a bad class was at least as big a problem as the evaluation of EJ himself. But whilst Whaley has his fingerprints over the EJ pick - the strategy was Buddy's and he was pretty clear about it, he wanted to "build" a team before he got his Quarterback. Most of us I think would prefer to say get the Quarterback and build around him... but then you see the success Dak has had (and I still say Dak was not an elite prospect even if he turns into an elite player) going into a team that was already built around him and it does make you reflect on Buddy's thinking a bit - though of course the reason Dallas could build the team first was precisely because it HAD a quarterback. I'm not arguing with your position because for the most part we are in agreement. As far as Nix's philosophy of building a team first before addressing the qb position that is a foolish approach to take. My position is get the prospect on your team if the opportunity avails itself. If the qb isn't ready or the team is still in a major rebuild mode then don't play the prospect right away. Not playing a rookie qb right away doesn't mean that the prospect still can't be preparing to play in the not too distant future. The salient point in this discussion is that our front ability to evaluate qbs is less than stellar. The EJ selection is a classic Buddy Nix approach to evaluating where too much emphasis is placed on physical attributes over football traits related to playing the particular position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 I'm not arguing with your position because for the most part we are in agreement. As far as Nix's philosophy of building a team first before addressing the qb position that is a foolish approach to take. My position is get the prospect on your team if the opportunity avails itself. If the qb isn't ready or the team is still in a major rebuild mode then don't play the prospect right away. Not playing a rookie qb right away doesn't mean that the prospect still can't be preparing to play in the not too distant future. The salient point in this discussion is that our front ability to evaluate qbs is less than stellar. The EJ selection is a classic Buddy Nix approach to evaluating where too much emphasis is placed on physical attributes over football traits related to playing the particular position. fyi I just saw a comparison of Trubisky to Andy Dalton. I like it, but I think he will need a good to great supporting cast for that to be the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 fyi I just saw a comparison of Trubisky to Andy Dalton. I like it, but I think he will need a good to great supporting cast for that to be the case. It's funny that you brought up the Andy Dalton comparison. Few would argue that Dalton is an elite qb but that is not to say that he isn't a solid or even good qb. The Bills had an opportunity to draft him in the second round. We passed on him. If we would have taken him I'm confident that this team would have been a much more credible team over the past number of years and our playoff drought would have ended a number of years ago. Few teams have elite qbs. However, with competent qbing you can be in the mix to compete for the playoffs and beyond. Jim Kelly retired two decades ago. We still haven't found an average franchise qb to replace him. That is a disgrace and an embarrassment. Enough is enough! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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