Fred Says Whaley Dishonest With Him

[TH3]

 

Shouldn't someone with going on 20 seasons in NFL personnel be more savvy than what Whaley is now? Especially the part about understanding how different departments must work together in a NFL Front Office? I'm sure Pittsburgh does things differently in some ways than Buffalo, but DW has been here through 6 off-seasons now.

 

More savvy - how? He cut an expensive aging vet they didn't want to bring to camp - except for the owner - in the first place....

 

Fred gets butthurt - shocker

[negativo]

Like rats to cheese....the usual suspects appear right on time with full on ad hominem to deflect. So predictable.

[DC Tom]

Did Whaley notify the football ops and marketing department and local banks before promising that bonus? That reeks of unsavviness.

 

Of course not. He said himself, in promising the bonus he was "going rogue."

[NoSaint]

Like rats to cheese....the usual suspects appear right on time with full on ad hominem to deflect. So predictable.

on the bright side for the rest of us, your trolling has gotten so absurd that you no longer disrupt conversation seriously, but instead provide entertaining material for parody.

[DC Tom]

Like rats to cheese....the usual suspects appear right on time with full on ad hominem to deflect. So predictable.

 

Dipshit...you accused EVERYONE here of being paid shills for Whaley. And now you're bitching about everyone ELSE attacking you personally?

[NoSaint]

 

Of course not. He said himself, in promising the bonus he was "going rogue."

thats so whaley

[thebandit27]

Like rats to cheese....the usual suspects appear right on time with full on ad hominem to deflect. So predictable.

 

I see...so our responses to being called shills are ad hominem attacks, but you calling us shills is perfectly fine?

 

I also see that I shouldn't expect a reasoned response to this:

 

 

And yet you come at some of us that have been very targeted in our criticism(s) of the front office and claim we're shills.

 

Was I shilling when I ripped the Darby pick back in April? Was I shilling when I repeatedly blasted Marrone/Hacket's use of Sammy Watkins, or my disdain for the Kouandjio selection?

 

To claim to have read certain members' posting history, and then have drawn such a conclusion means one of two things:(1) you're lying, or (2) you're incapable of deductive reasoning. Of course I suppose it could be both.

[DC Tom]

on the bright side for the rest of us, your trolling has gotten so absurd that you no longer disrupt conversation seriously, but instead provide entertaining material for parody.

 

And doesn't know the difference between "mockery" and "ad hominem attacks," which makes the parody that much more entertaining.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

 

Because Whaley didn't notify the marketing department he was cutting Fred he's now not "savvy" and doesn't know how front offices work? And since he is only doing Rex's bidding (as you have consistently stated) why didn't Rex notify the marketing folks?

 

If I may, it seems to me that this quite possibly reflects a confusion of communication expectations arising from the change in command structure?

 

Am I wrong in remembering that with Wilson's health declining/during Mary Wilson's trusteeship, Brandon was the President of the Bills and both Marrone and Nix/Whaley reported to him?

Or did Marrone actually report to Nix/Whaley who reported to Brandon? Either way, Brandon had a big hand in football operations - he had functioned as GM after Levy retired, he and Overdorf were clearly in the draft room during the Watkins trade-up and clearly had influence, grinning and high-fiving and fist-pumping.

 

It was flagged for Pegula that there could be problems in that reporting structure if things didn't elevate to his attention. As I understand it, Brandon, Rex Ryan, and Whaley all now report directly to Pegula. Brandon has publically said he is "hands off" the football operations several times. So it seems to me that quite legitimately, Ryan and Whaley could agree and notify the Pegulas, but Brandon and/or some of his lower FO minions were "out of the loop" and are pissed. But you know....to run an efficient football team, you really have to make football decisions with football guys.

 

So Brandon may feel that he needs to know/buy-in

[outsidethebox]

I can't wait until they cut Kyle Williams. He's a unproductive bum anyways. Who needs him?

[YoloinOhio]

I can't wait until they cut Kyle Williams. He's a unproductive bum anyways. Who needs him?

i understand how fans can lump these two together for obvious reasons. I think the difference there is that KW is a starter and considered an elite player at his position. Fred wasn't going to be the feature back here and isn't considered elite, and is a few years older. Edited September 2, 2015 by YoloinOhio

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Great post...except it will be ignored by those who are ripping Whaley and want him tar and feathered.

 

Thanks. I guess I'm not really posting for them, I realize no facts or reason will convince them. I'm just hoping to provide facts to those who are interested in same but perhaps lack time or inclination to look them up for themselves.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

The one thing Whaley probably could have done much better was controlling the narrative.

 

The story should have been cap casualty, plain and simple. By side stepping that people can misconstrue agendas all day long.

 

 

Freddie had a greater cap hit than boobie, Bryce, Karlos and b Hill combined... and it sounded like he wasn't going to be the #2 back.

 

It doesn't make business sense that the 24th highest paid running back this year was the 38th most productive LAST YEAR, and declining. And there are three younger guys that have more left in the tank and are peaking or still ascending.

 

That's why Freddie is going to clear waivers before he gets his new Jersey.

 

Gotta prune the shrubs to get that new growth. And I say that as a huge f-jax fan. Will always consider him a man among boys, the gritty way he plays. Father Time is an a-hole.

Edited September 2, 2015 by over 20 years of fanhood

[May Day 10]

not a big deal.

 

 

If things stink and results dont come, the Pegulas will make changes. Until then, Im cool with everything

[Satan]

hey everybody. what's going on?

[YoloinOhio]

hey everybody. what's going on?

another day, another dollar! Little Susie needs a new pair of shoes!

[26CornerBlitz]

The one thing Whaley probably could have done much better was controlling the narrative.

 

The story should have been cap casualty, plain and simple. By side stepping that people can misconstrue agendas all day long.

 

 

Freddie had a greater cap hit than boobie, Bryce, Karlos and b Hill combined... and it sounded like he wasn't going to be the #2 back.

 

It doesn't make business sense that the 24th highest paid running back this year was the 38th most productive LAST YEAR, and declining. And there are three younger guys that have more left in the tank and are peaking or still ascending.

 

That's why Freddie is going to clear waivers before he gets his new Jersey.

 

Gotta prune the shrubs to get that new growth. And I say that as a huge f-jax fan. Will always consider him a man among boys, the gritty way he plays. Father Time is an a-hole.

There are no waivers to clear since he's a vested vet of 4+ NFL seasons to his credit.

[outsidethebox]

i understand how fans can lump these two together for obvious reasons. I think the difference there is that KW is a starter and considered an elite player at his position. Fred wasn't going to be the feature back here and isn't considered elite, and is a few years older.

I understand that. I'm just mocking the people who called Jackson a bum and washed up. Everytime someone gets cut, there are quite a few "fans" who jump on the he's a bum wagon.

[thebandit27]

not a big deal.

 

 

If things stink and results dont come, the Pegulas will make changes. Until then, Im cool with everything

 

 

hey everybody. what's going on?

 

 

another day, another dollar! Little Susie needs a new pair of shoes!

 

#shillinlikeavillain

[Hapless Bills Fan]

i understand how fans can lump these two together for obvious reasons. I think the difference there is that he's a starter and considered an elite player at his position. Fred wasn't going to be the feature back here and isn't considered elite, and is a few years older.

 

There will come a time when the Bills call Kyle into an office and say "Kyle, the way we grade it, there isn't likely to be space on the 53 man roster for you this year. Would you like to retire and have us throw you a party, would you like to fight to the end in case there are injuries or our evaluation shifts, or would you like to be cut now to give you a bit better chance to catch on elsewhere?"

 

What happens then is going to depend upon the Bills recent record and playoff picture.

 

I love Fred and I'm so sad he's not a Bill anymore. Much respect. I can't help thinking, though, that all this Brouhaha is less about Fred's actual current abilities as a player, Doug Whaley's actual abilities as a GM and evaluator of football talent, and the relative abilities of the other RBs. I think it's more about that 15 year playoff drought and how FredEx Delivered hope and interest to the fans via hard work and great attitude during a dark time of dreary Bills football with no end in sight. I can't help thinking that if we were the Ravens or the Seahawks it would be more "wow, I'll miss him, but it must have been time"

[26CornerBlitz]

I understand that. I'm just mocking the people who called Jackson a bum and washed up. Everytime someone gets cut, there are quite a few "fans" who jump on the he's a bum wagon.

He's clearly not a bum, but Fred hasn't played a full season in 3 of the last four years due to injury. GMs sometimes have to make cold and calculated decisions. It's just the nature of the business.

[outsidethebox]

 

There will come a time when the Bills call Kyle into an office and say "Kyle, the way we grade it, there isn't likely to be space on the 53 man roster for you this year. Would you like to retire and have us throw you a party, would you like to fight to the end in case there are injuries or our evaluation shifts, or would you like to be cut now to give you a bit better chance to catch on elsewhere?"

 

What happens then is going to depend upon the Bills recent record and playoff picture.

 

I love Fred and I'm so sad he's not a Bill anymore. Much respect. I can't help thinking, though, that all this Brouhaha is less about Fred's actual current abilities as a player, Doug Whaley's actual abilities as a GM and evaluator of football talent, and the relative abilities of the other RBs. I think it's more about that 15 year playoff drought and how FredEx Delivered hope and interest to the fans via hard work and great attitude during a dark time of dreary Bills football with no end in sight. I can't help thinking that if we were the Ravens or the Seahawks it would be more "wow, I'll miss him, but it must have been time"

Nawwwww.......he's a bum.

[negativo]

 

Dipshit...you accused EVERYONE here of being paid shills for Whaley. And now you're bitching about everyone ELSE attacking you personally?

 

Appreciate the kind words and constructive dialogue. Now, please feel free to show where I've accused EVERYONE of being a shill? Thanks, and have a great day.

[Jobu]

Like rats to cheese....the usual suspects appear right on time with full on ad hominem to deflect. So predictable.

 

I have got a dollar that says this is really Doug Marrone. Butt hurt with keyboard in hand.

[26CornerBlitz]

[Kirby Jackson]

again, always appreciated.

 

i guess my follow up would be - if this wasnt a shock to many here, how was it to anyone in house, unless whaley was actively telling others that there was no chance of a cut? i could see moderate surprise, but blindsided would be a surprise to me.

 

we knew they were exploring other backs, we knew there were rumors around this all offseason, there were plenty here that connected the dots of diminishing role, and price that might not match, of course age, injury history..... wouldnt you think that most, even if not explicitly briefed of the possibility probably shouldve had an idea he was some degree of risk? i dont know how anyone couldve had him at a slam dunk to make it unless whaley was giving mis-information.

Your follow-up is why I can't help but think the Bills hold some blame.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

The one thing Whaley probably could have done much better was controlling the narrative.

 

The story should have been cap casualty, plain and simple. By side stepping that people can misconstrue agendas all day long.

Freddie had a greater cap hit than boobie, Bryce, Karlos and b Hill combined... and it sounded like he wasn't going to be the #2 back.

It doesn't make business sense that the 24th highest paid running back this year was the 38th most productive LAST YEAR, and declining. And there are three younger guys that have more left in the tank and are peaking or still ascending.

 

That's why Freddie is going to clear waivers before he gets his new Jersey.

Gotta prune the shrubs to get that new growth. And I say that as a huge f-jax fan. Will always consider him a man among boys, the gritty way he plays. Father Time is an a-hole.

 

Except, if you spin the story as "cap casualty", then it begs the question "was Fred offered the chance to reno if he wanted to stay a Bill?"

I think the truth is more "gotta prune the shrubs to get that new growth". I think the Bills are comfortable in a 1-2 of McCoy-Williams and in Dixon as a 3rd back/ST. I think they want a 4th back, but it's not clear to me if they'll keep Bryce Brown on the 53 or stash Cierre Wood on the PS. I don't think they see room on the roster for Fred at any price, and that's the hard bottom line.

 

Fred does not have to clear waivers, BTW. Waivers only apply to players with less than 4 years of service. Fred is an UFA right now.

[negativo]

 

I see...so our responses to being called shills are ad hominem attacks, but you calling us shills is perfectly fine?

 

I also see that I shouldn't expect a reasoned response to this:

 

 

When did I call any specific member a shill. Please feel free to show a quote of mine. I was very specific in my language not to name any names or make sweeping general statements that everyone was a shill. I realize what your doing, of course. It fits the narrative I outlined perfectly. However, if you want to attribute specific words to me please go ahead and show them.

 

Thanks, and have a great day.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

I can't wait until they cut Kyle Williams. He's a unproductive bum anyways. Who needs him?

I can see how it's confusing, but Kyle is not on the roster because he's likable, he's there as the starter on a very deep and talented line as a 4 time probowler (including the last 3 consecutive years.) you betchurass he's cut at his salary if he falls to be third string DT or starts showing durability issues and losing steam.

[Gordio]

 

There will come a time when the Bills call Kyle into an office and say "Kyle, the way we grade it, there isn't likely to be space on the 53 man roster for you this year. Would you like to retire and have us throw you a party, would you like to fight to the end in case there are injuries or our evaluation shifts, or would you like to be cut now to give you a bit better chance to catch on elsewhere?"

 

What happens then is going to depend upon the Bills recent record and playoff picture.

 

I love Fred and I'm so sad he's not a Bill anymore. Much respect. I can't help thinking, though, that all this Brouhaha is less about Fred's actual current abilities as a player, Doug Whaley's actual abilities as a GM and evaluator of football talent, and the relative abilities of the other RBs. I think it's more about that 15 year playoff drought and how FredEx Delivered hope and interest to the fans via hard work and great attitude during a dark time of dreary Bills football with no end in sight. I can't help thinking that if we were the Ravens or the Seahawks it would be more "wow, I'll miss him, but it must have been time"

 

 

This is an excellent point. I remember when we traded Evans & people were bithcing about it. Some poster made the point "we could lose just as easily without lee than we can with him." Now I am not putting 100% of the blame on Jackson but like it or not we didn't win nothing with him these last 8 years. Maybe management saw he was a declining player, with a big pricetag that was indeed part of the losing culture that has plaqued this franchis for the last decade. Like I said, I can't fault management on this one.

[The Dean]

So, I assume now that we know Whaley informed the Pegulas BEFORE cutting Jackson, this is all put to bed now. That the "marketing and business units" were not consulted, which of course, there is no reason for the GM to do. Right?

 

negativo has apologized for his campaign of nonsense, and we're all moving forward. Do I have that right?

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

 

Except, if you spin the story as "cap casualty", then it begs the question "was Fred offered the chance to reno if he wanted to stay a Bill?"

I think the truth is more "gotta prune the shrubs to get that new growth". I think the Bills are comfortable in a 1-2 of McCoy-Williams and in Dixon as a 3rd back/ST. I think they want a 4th back, but it's not clear to me if they'll keep Bryce Brown on the 53 or stash Cierre Wood on the PS. I don't think they see room on the roster for Fred at any price, and that's the hard bottom line.

 

Fred does not have to clear waivers, BTW. Waivers only apply to players with less than 4 years of service. Fred is an UFA right now.

Thanks on the waiver thing... Thought it was universal.

 

I consider the production:price ratio "the cap game." That's why pruning for new growth is one and the same in my view. Perhaps even the vet minimum for him in a restructure brought a 3rd or 4th place production:price ratio down the depth chart making restructuring out of the question...

Edited September 2, 2015 by over 20 years of fanhood

[Hapless Bills Fan]

The only thing that might have been prevented is giving TG the opportunity to piss in the punchbowl by saying how 'embarrassing' it is.

 

No one but Timmeh has indicated that it was a significant problem for M&T or the Bills management...

 

Nah, Timmeh woulda found some reason

 

 

The topic came up. It had to. And if you believe that it did, then the implication is that the FO LIED to M&T, and I'm not buying that.

M&T wanted Jackson. They got him. Now they look dumb.

 

M&T looks dumb if they make a fuss about this. Public attention and public interest are the heart of all advertising. Unless M&T's ad execs are dumber than a bunch of box turtles on a hot highway in Nebraska, they have only tot weak their campaign to make it "thanks for the memories, Fred!" and every football fan in WNY will be paying full attention with a little emotional teardrop to give it more "punch". Potentially MAJOR coup for M&T advertising.

[thebandit27]

 

When did I call any specific member a shill. Please feel free to show a quote of mine. I was very specific in my language not to name any names or make sweeping general statements that everyone was a shill. I realize what your doing, of course. It fits the narrative I outlined perfectly. However, if you want to attribute specific words to me please go ahead and show them.

 

Thanks, and have a great day.

 

You responded directly to me:

 

 

 

Your faux "shock" that management has plants on the payroll doing social media damage control is charming and telling. Also, tossing in that little strawman qualifier of "thinking Whaley is a good GM" was a nice added touch. Whaley must be proud.

 

 

 

Some people conveniently miss nuance - like quotes around words - as a strategy to advance their interests. Those whom they represent encourage these tactics to create false dichotomies that favor their narrative. Pretty sleazy stuff, yet fitting in a case such as this when the principle has acted in the sleaziest of fashions.

 

 

And then of course in this very post to which I'm currently responding:

 

"I realize what your doing, of course. It fits the narrative I outlined perfectly."

So, I assume now that we know Whaley informed the Pegulas BEFORE cutting Jackson, this is all put to bed now. That the "marketing and business units" were not consulted, which of course, there is no reason for the GM to do. Right?

 

negativo has apologized for his campaign of nonsense, and we're all moving forward. Do I have that right?

 

All except for the bold

 

EDIT: unless, of course, I missed the apology

Edited September 2, 2015 by thebandit27

[DC Tom]

And let's all be honest - the upset with this is less that it was done than how it was done. If it was done with a press conference and a nod to how much Fred's meant to Buffalo, and given him a chance to say goodbye, people would be a lot more accepting. Instead, it was an unceremonious first-round preseason cut. That bugs a lot of people.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

 

Nah, Timmeh woulda found some reason

 

 

M&T looks dumb if they make a fuss about this. Public attention and public interest are the heart of all advertising. Unless M&T's ad execs are dumber than a bunch of box turtles on a hot highway in Nebraska, they have only tot weak their campaign to make it "thanks for the memories, Fred!" and every football fan in WNY will be paying full attention with a little emotional teardrop to give it more "punch". Potentially MAJOR coup for M&T advertising.

Exactly- I hate it when people fail to see change as opportunity

[The Big Cat]

 

Nah, Timmeh woulda found some reason

 

 

M&T looks dumb if they make a fuss about this. Public attention and public interest are the heart of all advertising. Unless M&T's ad execs are dumber than a bunch of box turtles on a hot highway in Nebraska, they have only tot weak their campaign to make it "thanks for the memories, Fred!" and every football fan in WNY will be paying full attention with a little emotional teardrop to give it more "punch". Potentially MAJOR coup for M&T advertising.

 

 

Exactly- I hate it when people fail to see change as opportunity

 

The discussion was spurred by Timmah's implication that feathers were ruffled in these areas.

[The Dean]

And let's all be honest - the upset with this is less that it was done than how it was done. If it was done with a press conference and a nod to how much Fred's meant to Buffalo, and given him a chance to say goodbye, people would be a lot more accepting. Instead, it was an unceremonious first-round preseason cut. That bugs a lot of people.

 

 

Bugs me a little, to be honest. But not enough to start a slander campaign against the GM. Truthfully, shouldn't marketing expert Kim Pegula have suggested they wait til Tuesday to announce it and put something together?

[Nihilarian]

I understand that completely. But I think they had every intention of keeping Fred in the spring. Then they drafted Karlos and then Karlos beat Fred out for the #2 job so he became expendable because now if McCoy goes down they think they have someone that can carry the ball 10-15 times a game the way they thought that of Fred if McCoy went down. With Karlos also a ST player and known to be able to pass block and catch the ball (Fred is obviously better at those two things than Karlos), then Fred became expendable when you then add, age, salary, injury history, etc to it.

 

I would have kept Fred myself. But I don't at all think this was the plan. I think Karlos beat him out and they were surprised at how well he played and how fast he picked things up and they were now thinking short, mid and long term.

I dunno maybe I missed something here if Karlos Williams beat out Fred for the #2 job. Hasn't he been injured since that first pre season game in which he had 14 rushes for 40 yards 1 TD (a 2.9 (YPC avg)?

 

Now Bryce Brown had 6 rushes for 52 yards 1 TD (a 8.7 YPC avg), and then neither played in the next two games.

 

At this point I'm thinking Dixon gets the start if McCoy can't play week one, and Brown is his backup with Williams still recovering from his mysterious groin area injury.

 

Releasing Fred with Shady questionable for the opener makes even less sense now then it did when it happened.

 

Not a good way to start the season, Whaley effed up the JuJu

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

And let's all be honest - the upset with this is less that it was done than how it was done. If it was done with a press conference and a nod to how much Fred's meant to Buffalo, and given him a chance to say goodbye, people would be a lot more accepting. Instead, it was an unceremonious first-round preseason cut. That bugs a lot of people.

I agree with you. They bumbled the handling of it. It's the first player like this Whaley has had to let go I think, so hopefully they learn from it and leave the door open for Freddie to retire a bill.

Edited September 2, 2015 by over 20 years of fanhood