White Linen Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 No one wants to come to Buffalo with the crazy weather. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whites Bay Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 We need a new stadium with a retractable roof in the middle of downtown and all will be perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 You may not find a link and I don't usually play this card but trust me on this. The sponsorship dollars for the same assets that they get is insane. A lot of it is buried in random assets and promos. Part of it was the Toronto payments so take that for what it's worth. Without those numbers though Littman would have NEVER approved the level of spend over the last decade +. I am not saying that it was all spent well but I promise this is the root of it. Â FWIW, I'm told he is the closer. He makes it go with his nonstop sales culture. He is really well respected in sports. Â I'm sure he is respected. But I'm betting the 78 million (plus whatever the second Toronto contract paid the Bills) accounts for the vast majority of unshared money since those deals were struck. Take away that soul selling move and you are left with sponsorship contracts with Tim Hortons and the like. I don't see marketing genius there--simply doing the job of signing up regional advertisers/sponsors. Â The shared revenue alone in the NFL is more than 50 million greater than the salary cap, so I think Littman had plenty of change to spare even without the Toronto deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015  I'm sure he is respected. But I'm betting the 78 million (plus whatever the second Toronto contract paid the Bills) accounts for the vast majority of unshared money since those deals were struck. Take away that soul selling move and you are left with sponsorship contracts with Tim Hortons and the like. I don't see marketing genius there--simply doing the job of signing up regional advertisers/sponsors.  The shared revenue alone in the NFL is more than 50 million greater than the salary cap, so I think Littman had plenty of change to spare even without the Toronto deal. Littman's equation of what could be spent was tied to the revenue. Obviously the Toronto deal was a lot. Russ is very well respected as a sports marketer. There aren't 5 people that I know of that are looked at more favorably than him in all of sports. Doc Sutton at UCF is kind of the godfather and there are some others (Ie Scott O'neill that was at MSG) that are in the same league. RB is on the high, high end of the NFL (which is the worst of the sports business operations). He's good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 Littman's equation of what could be spent was tied to the revenue. Obviously the Toronto deal was a lot.  Russ is very well respected as a sports marketer. There aren't 5 people that I know of that are looked at more favorably than him in all of sports. Doc Sutton at UCF is kind of the godfather and there are some others (Ie Scott O'neill that was at MSG) that are in the same league. RB is on the high, high end of the NFL (which is the worst of the sports business operations). He's good   I'm not saying he's not respected, but when the league hands you 50 million in profit and gullible Canadian oligarchs hand you maybe another 100 million, you really aren't under pressure to sell anything to make ends meet.  Notice how Russ pulled the plug on the Canada pimping a month before the team was on the market. No way a new owner would be OK with that PR disaster.  Top 5 ....in all of sports?? Well, I can't challenge that but I'm suspicious that if you polled all presidents of all MLB/NHL/NBA teams as well as the AD's of all Div 1 football and basketball programs, many would not put the president of the Bills in the top 5 of their colleagues (if they could even name him). I would bet they would all be envious of his situation currently and over the past 5 years or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015   I'm not saying he's not respected, but when the league hands you 50 million in profit and gullible Canadian oligarchs hand you maybe another 100 million, you really aren't under pressure to sell anything to make ends meet.  Notice how Russ pulled the plug on the Canada pimping a month before the team was on the market. No way a new owner would be OK with that PR disaster.  Top 5 ....in all of sports?? Well, I can't challenge that but I'm suspicious that if you polled all presidents of all MLB/NHL/NBA teams as well as the AD's of all Div 1 football and basketball programs, many would not put the president of the Bills in the top 5 of their colleagues (if they could even name him). I would bet they would all be envious of his situation currently and over the past 5 years or so. It's not a scientific poll but the people that I worked with at a high level are envious of him. He's really good. The Toronto thing was what is was. It was what the Bills had to do to be able to compete. That isn't what a lot of people wanted but they had to funnel the revenue back to Grosse Pointe to get the okay to spend. It wasn't perfect but from the business side the Bills are really, really, really good.  I've seen some terrible operations even with well respected team (the Chicago Bulls). The Bills operation is buttoned up but has some market limitations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 It's not a scientific poll but the people that I worked with at a high level are envious of him. He's really good. Â The Toronto thing was what is was. It was what the Bills had to do to be able to compete. That isn't what a lot of people wanted but they had to funnel the revenue back to Grosse Pointe to get the okay to spend. It wasn't perfect but from the business side the Bills are really, really, really good. Â I've seen some terrible operations even with well respected team (the Chicago Bulls). The Bills operation is buttoned up but has some market limitations. Â I disagree that the Toronto deal helped the Bills compete. They were not much better after the Rogers' checks cleared than before. Again, the salary cap (and likely the entire team staff expenses) are comped by the NFL. The low debt situation of the Bills historically has made his job a lot easier than many of his colleagues, that's all I'm saying. He didn't even have to line up a naming rights deal. That's a luxury nowadays and symbolic of the fact that the Bills have been clearing significant profits for many years because of their unique situation. There hasn't even been financial pressure to put a decent team on the field. It would be impossible for him to lose money in Buffalo. Â Russ may be a respected in his circle, but I stand by my assessment of what he has actually produced for the Bills, other than the "most and least significant" that I listed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 Â I disagree that the Toronto deal helped the Bills compete. They were not much better after the Rogers' checks cleared than before. Again, the salary cap (and likely the entire team staff expenses) are comped by the NFL. The low debt situation of the Bills historically has made his job a lot easier than many of his colleagues, that's all I'm saying. He didn't even have to line up a naming rights deal. That's a luxury nowadays and symbolic of the fact that the Bills have been clearing significant profits for many years because of their unique situation. There hasn't even been financial pressure to put a decent team on the field. It would be impossible for him to lose money in Buffalo. Â Russ may be a respected in his circle, but I stand by my assessment of what he has actually produced for the Bills, other than the "most and least significant" that I listed. The point is that the $8M from TO (or whatever it was) bought the Bills an extra $8M in Littman's eyes. He was the hatchet man. It was all tied to the revenue produced and it wasn't easy in WNY to be on a level with everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimdaigler Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 Oh Lord Will we ever have at least a pretty good quarterback again? Sorry....the Lamonica waste threw me off track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 The point is that the $8M from TO (or whatever it was) bought the Bills an extra $8M in Littman's eyes. He was the hatchet man. It was all tied to the revenue produced and it wasn't easy in WNY to be on a level with everyone else. Â Â We will have to agree to disagree on the bolded. That was a story Ralph and therefore Russ told for years, when actually, they were doing just fine--even before the Toronto sublet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 (edited) Â Â We will have to agree to disagree on the bolded. That was a story Ralph and therefore Russ told for years, when actually, they were doing just fine--even before the Toronto sublet. They were fine. They were hanging near the bottom (but never 32). They bumped up near some teams (like Baltimore) because of their sales talent. The operation at OBD has been better than the operations in a lot of places. Â Regardless of the things said, there are certain operations that are just better. I used the Bulls as an example earlier but they would die to have the T'Wolves operation. Obviously the Bulls are looked at much more favorably but they would trade their sales staff for Minnesota (or Charlotte) in a second. The Bills group is looked at like that (ironically a former Bills VP is the CMO in Charlotte). There is a difference between good teams and good operations. The Bills have a good operation. Edited June 14, 2015 by Kirby Jackson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 They were fine. They were hanging near the bottom (but never 32). They bumped up near some teams (like Baltimore) because of their sales talent. The operation at OBD has been better than the operations in a lot of places.  Regardless of the things said, there are certain operations that are just better. I used the Bulls as an example earlier but they would die to have the T'Wolves operation. Obviously the Bulls are looked at much more favorably but they would trade their sales staff for Minnesota (or Charlotte) in a second. The Bills group is looked at like that (ironically a former Bills VP is the CMO in Charlotte). There is a difference between good teams and good operations. The Bills have a good operation.   From Forbes:  "The Bills are really hurting when it comes to advertising and sponsorship revenue, generating less than $15 million of revenue–about half of what the Green Bay Packers pulled in–during 2012, placing them in the bottom quartile of the league."  Also, I bet almost any NBA team President would likely gladly swap places with any of his NFL counterparts---no guaranteed contracts, overwhelmingly lopsided CBA, massive revenue sharing guaranteeing a profit, ever increasing popularity and TV ratings/merchandise sales.  I'm sure they all admire Russ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
It's in My Blood Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 (edited) Brandon did the best he could with what Ralph gave him to use. He's a bright guy. Marketing/business is his forte and he'll only get better growing with the Pegula's backing him and genuine love for the Bills is unwavering. Edited June 14, 2015 by It's in My Blood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Quint Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 Wannstedt should be head coach!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transient Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 We'll be sorry that we didn't draft Clausen. Â We'll be sorry that we didn't draft Tebow. Â We would have won by a million points if we'd only started Flutie. Â Mario Williams is a bum. Â Ralph has no plan for the Bills when he dies and we're all screwed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 Bills having trouble filling seats - 3rd blackout ...... ....... IMO WRT the T.O. experience - it was a huge failure except to Ralph's pocketbook. Â it could be me but I'm confident that there was never a true Home Town feel / crowd advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Day 10 Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 The guy publicly sold us short. In a time we felt like our region had a tenuous hold on the team. Ill never forgive him for that. Now ticket sales are proving hum and his Slap in the face narrative wrong. The Toronto series is a black eye for me. Â I am glad he seems to have been relegated to the background out of the public eye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSOL Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 Mark my words, Doug Marrone WILL be head coach of the Jacksonville Jaguars by 2017. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 the threat of relocation looms after the pegula's......sound the alarm..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
machine gun kelly Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 Russ Brandon is a sound marketer with a team in a depressed economic area, and still managed to sell over 50,000 season tickets. He made dumb moves when he was involved with the team sports decisions, but as a business, we're fortunate. We finally have a new owner and he was willing to spend for top coaching talent. Â The Toronto thing made the Bills money, and basically kept the team profitable. I'm glad it's over, but I understood the decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 Â Â From Forbes: Â "The Bills are really hurting when it comes to advertising and sponsorship revenue, generating less than $15 million of revenueabout half of what the Green Bay Packers pulled induring 2012, placing them in the bottom quartile of the league." Â Also, I bet almost any NBA team President would likely gladly swap places with any of his NFL counterparts---no guaranteed contracts, overwhelmingly lopsided CBA, massive revenue sharing guaranteeing a profit, ever increasing popularity and TV ratings/merchandise sales. Â I'm sure they all admire Russ..... This is closer to what I was referring to from a few years back. I think that this has them at 21 in revenue. That is without a naming rights deal (owner's decision) and RW stadium. If you add a naming rights deal that bumps them even more. In addition the antiquated stadium has so many limitations in terms of additional assets. If you gave them the clean canvas that the Cardinals (for example) had a few years back there would be so many more opportunities. http://www.forbes.com/pictures/mlm45ekfed/32-oakland-raiders/Â In terms of the league the NFL is by far the easiest. They don't really need to be very good. They don't need to focus on ticket sales, sponsorship, alternative revenue streams, etc... They do this things but if they don't do them well it isn't a big deal. If the Tampa Bay Rays don't do those things well they are the Tampa Bay Rays. The NBA is the gold standard in sports business. That is where a of the top talent goes. They are the highest compensated and most cutting edge. The teams all work together there (NHL has since copied the model). Â With all of that being said Russ has maximized a limited situation. The market and stadium have a ceiling far less than many other teams. We will see the revenue skyrocket in a new stadium even compared to bigger markets because the Bills run a superior operation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris heff Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 I think that Brandon's efforts to regionalize the team were smart, the Toronto experiment not withstanding. It didn't work, but I understood it. Moving training camp to Rochester was a good idea. The combined market of Buffalo and Rochester makes the Bills market a mid sized one rather than a small one. However Brandon's largest contribution, to what ever degreehe participated, was the stadium lease. It eliminated most potential suitors that wanted to move the franchise. This far over shadows anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountainwampus Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 Kelvin Sheppard needs to go. Can't we trade him for someone useful? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 I think that Brandon's efforts to regionalize the team were smart, the Toronto experiment not withstanding. It didn't work, but I understood it. Moving training camp to Rochester was a good idea. The combined market of Buffalo and Rochester makes the Bills market a mid sized one rather than a small one. However Brandon's largest contribution, to what ever degreehe participated, was the stadium lease. It eliminated most potential suitors that wanted to move the franchise. This far over shadows anything else. Â Â I'll give Wilson creadit for that one, but in the end, the lease really didn't matter. Pegula was never going to be outbid and he was not going to move the team anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 Â Â I'll give Wilson creadit for that one, but in the end, the lease really didn't matter. Pegula was never going to be outbid and he was not going to move the team anyway. Agree, that was RW's last gift. The biggest thing that the lease did was eliminate people that could have been threats to Pegula. The Bon Jovi group was never a threat despite what many here thought. They didn't have the $$. If the lease wasn't in place though some Steve Ballmer type lunatic could have jumped in and bid some ungodly amount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 Agree, that was RW's last gift. The biggest thing that the lease did was eliminate people that could have been threats to Pegula. The Bon Jovi group was never a threat despite what many here thought. They didn't have the $$. If the lease wasn't in place though some Steve Ballmer type lunatic could have jumped in and bid some ungodly amount. I agree that the whole "Bills could move to Toronto" thing and its 1 billion posts was a complete nitemare fantasy, never a real threat. Once Pegula identified himslef as a bidder, it was over. There is no way the team would have picked any of the others. Â Intersting you mention Ballmer--his completely ridiculous over paying for the Clippers likely made other billionaires chuckle a bit, but it also likely eneded the "lunatic billionaire bid" scenario for the Bills. Yes there may have been a resulting bidding war, but there is no way Pegula would have left the auction empty handed. The Bills wanted him and no on else--and he likely bumped it over (priced) to 1.4 billion to just end all discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 I agree that the whole "Bills could move to Toronto" thing and its 1 billion posts was a complete nitemare fantasy, never a real threat. Once Pegula identified himslef as a bidder, it was over. There is no way the team would have picked any of the others. Â Intersting you mention Ballmer--his completely ridiculous over paying for the Clippers likely made other billionaires chuckle a bit, but it also likely eneded the "lunatic billionaire bid" scenario for the Bills. Yes there may have been a resulting bidding war, but there is no way Pegula would have left the auction empty handed. The Bills wanted him and no on else--and he likely bumped it over (priced) to 1.4 billion to just end all discussion. Yeah, you are probably right. Pegula was going to be the guy. He was the perfect buyer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris heff Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 I'll give Wilson creadit for that one, but in the end, the lease really didn't matter. Pegula was never going to be outbid and he was not going to move the team anyway. None of us know who or how involved anyone was in the lease deal. Ralph would have had to sign off on it. Probably was Ralph's idea, but he didn't do the leg work or negotiating. The Pegula ownership is hindsight, was not a forgone conclusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 (edited) None of us know who or how involved anyone was in the lease deal. Ralph would have had to sign off on it. Probably was Ralph's idea, but he didn't do the leg work or negotiating. The Pegula ownership is hindsight, was not a forgone conclusion. Â Â Nah, the lease deal had Ralph's demands in it. Doesn't matter who did "the leg work" (not sure what that is). The county was dying to sign a lease extension. Â I wouldn't say Pegula was completely in hindsight. The Bills certainly knew he was a likely bidder well before Ralph passed. Sorry, Russ gets a 15% servers tip on this one. Edited June 14, 2015 by Mr. WEO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Malooga Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 Put in Gibran Hamdan! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 Put in Gibran Hamdan! Don't !@#$ with the Chroisen One. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris heff Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 Nah, the lease deal had Ralph's demands in it. Doesn't matter who did "the leg work" (not sure what that is). The county was dying to sign a lease extension. Â I wouldn't say Pegula was completely in hindsight. The Bills certainly knew he was a likely bidder well before Ralph passed. Sorry, Russ gets a 15% servers tip on this one. Leg work means going to the endless meetings required to get anything done with local governments. So you think Ralph, in his nineties, the same Ralph Wilson who in his HOF speech said he was appalled to see all the people in wheelchairs at the parade (he meant amazed), you think he handled 85% of this? The Ralph Wilson that was unable to travel, that Ralph Wison? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 Leg work means going to the endless meetings required to get anything done with local governments. So you think Ralph, in his nineties, the same Ralph Wilson who in his HOF speech said he was appalled to see all the people in wheelchairs at the parade (he meant amazed), you think he handled 85% of this? The Ralph Wilson that was unable to travel, that Ralph Wison? Â Â Come on---a guy who goes to the meetings to finish the discussion and paperwork is just doing his job. Anyone could do that in the organization. Ralph told him what to do and he did it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris heff Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 Come on---a guy who goes to the meetings to finish the discussion and paperwork is just doing his job. Anyone could do that in the organization. Ralph told him what to do and he did it.Yeah that's right businesses that make hundreds of millions and are worth over a billion only need one ninety year old confined to a wheelchair to run it. Ralph could have sent any of us to handle lease negotiations for him. Â So your position is that Ralph was smart enough to handle this whole lease thing, but an idiot for turning full control over to Brandon a year later.? I mean after all Brandon is really nothing more than a waiter deserving of nothing more than a tip, and at 15% a bad tip at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 Yeah that's right businesses that make hundreds of millions and are worth over a billion only need one ninety year old confined to a wheelchair to run it. Ralph could have sent any of us to handle lease negotiations for him. Â So your position is that Ralph was smart enough to handle this whole lease thing, but an idiot for turning full control over to Brandon a year later.? I mean after all Brandon is really nothing more than a waiter deserving of nothing more than a tip, and at 15% a bad tip at that. Â Â No, that's not what I'm saying. Ralph told hi what he wanted the lease to say and to accomplish. Brandon and others carried out the deal with an Erie County that would have signed Ralph's Depends at that point. This isn't really that hard to figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris heff Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 No, that's not what I'm saying. Ralph told hi what he wanted the lease to say and to accomplish. Brandon and others carried out the deal with an Erie County that would have signed Ralph's Depends at that point. This isn't really that hard to figure. No it is not, but you make the second half of your assumption sound easy. So let's assume Ralph's instructions were to negotiate a new lease that would make it difficult for new owners to immediately move the team, while at the same time not screwing themselves. I for one don't think that Brandon, et al, we're give a particularly easy task. Furthermore I believe it was handled masterfully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 (edited) No it is not, but you make the second half of your assumption sound easy. So let's assume Ralph's instructions were to negotiate a new lease that would make it difficult for new owners to immediately move the team, while at the same time not screwing themselves. I for one don't think that Brandon, et al, we're give a particularly easy task. Furthermore I believe it was handled masterfully. Â The landlord was never looking to screw the Bills--in fact it has always caved to Wilson and the Bills. All the Bills had to do this time differently was to agree to kick in some loose change to contribute to the 130 million makeover. The County was ready to sign any document that made it a near certainty the Bills would say in the County. They would have signed anything. They had no leverage and the Bills (as always) knew it. Â I can't imagine this was much of a negotiation, let alone one requiring a...master. Edited June 15, 2015 by Mr. WEO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris heff Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 The landlord was never looking to screw the Bills--in fact it has always caved to Wilson and the Bills. All the Bills had to do this time differently was to agree to kick in some loose change to contribute to the 130 million makeover. The County was ready to sign any document that made it a near certainty the Bills would say in the County. They would have signed anything. They had no leverage and the Bills (as always) knew it. Â I can't imagine this was much of a negotiation, let alone one requiring a...master. They would have signed anything? How do you know this? Were you there? Have you ever had to deal with municipal or county government on any kind of agreement? The landlord was never looking to screw the Bills--in fact it has always caved to Wilson and the Bills. All the Bills had to do this time differently was to agree to kick in some loose change to contribute to the 130 million makeover. The County was ready to sign any document that made it a near certainty the Bills would say in the County. They would have signed anything. They had no leverage and the Bills (as always) knew it. Â I can't imagine this was much of a negotiation, let alone one requiring a...master. They would have signed anything? How do you know this? Were you there? Have you ever had to deal with municipal or county government on any kind of agreement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talley56 Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 Trentative (although I don't remember if this was ever a topic or just a shot at TE). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 Trentative (although I don't remember if this was ever a topic or just a shot at TE).Trentative Checkwards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts