I know nonone would actually say it but do you think Whaley might actu

[GunnerBill]

The Browns have fired everybody every year for the last three years, and now finally have a team with a winning record.

 

I've stated my position I am on the fence about Marrone - can't decided if I want him to stay or go..... but this is a rather strange take. The Browns have blown it up and started again for 3 years in a row and had two 5 win seasons and are now 7-6 (the same as us). We were 1 win better than the Browns last year and now have the exact same record (with a win against them) through 13 weeks. That hardly suggests it is the way to go to me. In fact I would say that supports the theory that you keep the band together if anything.

[BillsVet]

I think it's funny to read all the people here who want to fire Marone because he has not been able to win despite having plenty of talent on the roster, and then they want to fire Whaley (and excoriate Nix whenever they get the chance) for the bad job he's done as GM. Who do they think GOT all this talent that Marone is wasting? The tooth fairy?

 

You can't hold both of these opinions at the same time.

 

Does Marrone make the team better? Does he do more with above average talent? Or is the get out of jail free card that he doesn't have a QB instantly give him more time? Because he's the HC and in concert with the GM, helps to make decisions on personnel. Both Whaley and Marrone are tied together and therefore both have failed should they fail to reach the playoffs. A lot of people said Nix improved the talent, that Whaley continued it, etc. Well, we're still looking for Buddy's baby and it hasn't come.

 

How much time do you need in the modern NFL to put a team on the field to make the playoffs? Because it's a lot harder to go from 8 to 10-11 wins than it is to go from 6 to 8. And they're not ready to take that leap unless there's a big improvement on the offensive side of the ball.

 

This is the best Bills team in ten years. Hamstrung by crappy quarterbacking, they will finish 8-8, the best record in 10 years.

Progress is being made; the roster is better. We could be in contention next year with the right QB.

I don't want to start over again with a new coach and staff. I like Whaley.

Bring everybody back, get a QB and let's go!

 

Settling for mediocre to average football isn't what I'd highlight for a franchise that's been riding that train for the better part of 15 years. Because right now, they're not worthy of making the playoffs and there's no indication the current management and staff in place are up for that challenge. The goal in 2014 was to make the playoffs, given the trade for Sammy, signing of Orton, improvement on defense in 2013-14, et al. But they've fallen back to average when people expecting playoffs. I remember people talking progress in 2006-07 when DJ had them on the heroic march to 7-9. When they did the same thing in 2008 (starting 5-1 and then going 2-8 to finish 7-9) people weren't enthused.

[dave mcbride]

Does Marrone make the team better? Does he do more with above average talent? Or is the get out of jail free card that he doesn't have a QB instantly give him more time? Because he's the HC and in concert with the GM, helps to make decisions on personnel. Both Whaley and Marrone are tied together and therefore both have failed should they fail to reach the playoffs. A lot of people said Nix improved the talent, that Whaley continued it, etc. Well, we're still looking for Buddy's baby and it hasn't come.

 

All true, but since Whaley took over not one good QB has come free on the open market (draft or FA). Not one. The simple fact of the matter is that you simply cannot be a consistent winner in the NFL without an above average (at least) QB. The college QBs available last year were terrible, unfortunately, and this past season the Bills weren't going to trade up and take Bortles. The one arguable thing they could have done is take Manziel, who I think has more potential to be good than many others here. We shall see.

Edited December 10, 2014 by dave mcbride

[Punching Bag]

Think is more likely the GM will tell him he needs more help and have assistant head coach hired like they did in Dallass since money probably will not be as big as issue.

[GunnerBill]

I remember people talking progress in 2006-07 when DJ had them on the heroic march to 7-9. When they did the same thing in 2008 (starting 5-1 and then going 2-8 to finish 7-9) people weren't enthused.

 

Of course they weren't because the progress had stalled. Are you saying that because the Jauron team matched 7-9 with another 7-9 that this Bills team will repeat this season's record next season (be that 7-9 or 8-8)? And that we shouldn't give Marrone a chance to build on the progress because we did that with Jauron and it didn't work?

 

I'm no Marrone lover but I can't help but feel that some people want to put 15 years of failure on him when he arrived less than 2 full seasons ago. If Marrone goes say 8-8 this year, stays and goes 8-8 next year I think you will find a lot more firmly on the Marrone out bandwaggon, yours truly included.

[Mickey]

I think there is a very good chance Marrone is coming back but honestly, I think that depends more on whether the new owner wants to put his stamp on the team right away or whether he wants to get his feet wet as an owner.

 

It would be easy if the team was not a contender but it is, especially the defense. This isn't a team that needs a top to bottom rebuild, it needs a few guards and a good QB, not a hall of fame guy mind you, just a guy worth his paycheck, no more, no less. This team is close and firing Marrone would be a huge step back. That would lead to a whole new coaching staff, new schemes, new strategies, everything and everybody going back to square one.

 

If that is what Pegula wants, then he might as well start the rebuild early but I think that the wiser course for him, with a team this close, is to see what Marrone can come up with next year and maybe even one more year after. Pegula can use the time to learn how to be an owner in the NFL rather than just jumping in with a house cleaning and at the same time he can see if this team really is as close as it looks to being not just "in the hunt" but a solid pick for the play offs from the get go.

[BillsVet]

All true, but since Whaley took over not one good QB has come free on the open market (draft or FA). Not one. The simple fact of the matter is that you simply cannot be a consistent winner in the NFL without an above average (at least) QB. The college QBs available last year were terrible, unfortunately, and this past season the Bills weren't going to trade up and take Bortles. The one arguable thing they could have done is take Manziel, who I think has more potential to be good than many others here. We shall see.

 

Not everyone can be Ryan Grigson and walk into a job with the top pick and have Andrew Luck fall into your lap. I get that the pickings have been slim at QB since 2013, but the Bills have approached the QB position as if they were waiting for their collective ship to come in. Well, I say swim out to it. You keep trying to get the QB until you know you've got one. The Bills have done anything but, going with a guy, seeing that he's not good enough, then trying someone new, and wasting years in the process. A lot of people here say you can't evaluate Marrone until he gets a QB. Well, who's responsible for obtaining that guy? It's Whaley and Marrone, but for the better part of 2 off-seasons and a regular season they felt comfortable with Manuel. He's proven to not be up to the task. That's on the GM and HC.

 

I know surface fans don't like to talk strategic vision for building a team, but Buddy Nix refusing to draft a young guy in 2011-12 is what has given us the situation Buffalo's in now. You can't say there haven't been options since 2013 without recognizing that past mistakes can affect future seasons. This isn't all Whaley's fault, but the approach since 2013 has been very passive and not consistent with how winning teams address the position.

 

Of course they weren't because the progress had stalled. Are you saying that because the Jauron team matched 7-9 with another 7-9 that this Bills team will repeat this season's record next season (be that 7-9 or 8-8)? And that we shouldn't give Marrone a chance to build on the progress because we did that with Jauron and it didn't work?

 

I'm no Marrone lover but I can't help but feel that some people want to put 15 years of failure on him when he arrived less than 2 full seasons ago. If Marrone goes say 8-8 this year, stays and goes 8-8 next year I think you will find a lot more firmly on the Marrone out bandwaggon, yours truly included.

 

Dick Jauron took below average to average talent and made it a below average to average team. Now, Doug Marrone is taking above average talent and making them average to below average. Some will say that because he doesn't have a good QB that somehow he's exempt from criticism and needs another year. Bruce Arians is winning with Drew Stanton QBing the Cardinals.

 

Is Doug Marrone going to magically become a better HC in year 3? Is he trending up or stagnated? I tend to think the latter, as evidenced by the decisions I've seen him make this year. He's not innovative, not someone who knows his own talent, and hasn't improved the offense. I guess we can cue someone to say it's not his fault, but I don't need another season to see that.

 

Marrone isn't responsible for 15 years of failure. The point is, you can't continue being mediocre, which is what the Bills are. Next year their best players under contract for 2015 will be a year older and the window closes, unless you somehow begin replacing talent that departs or declines.

[JohnC]

Not everyone can be Ryan Grigson and walk into a job with the top pick and have Andrew Luck fall into your lap. I get that the pickings have been slim at QB since 2013, but the Bills have approached the QB position as if they were waiting for their collective ship to come in. Well, I say swim out to it. You keep trying to get the QB until you know you've got one. The Bills have done anything but, going with a guy, seeing that he's not good enough, then trying someone new, and wasting years in the process. A lot of people here say you can't evaluate Marrone until he gets a QB. Well, who's responsible for obtaining that guy? It's Whaley and Marrone, but for the better part of 2 off-seasons and a regular season they felt comfortable with Manuel. He's proven to not be up to the task. That's on the GM and HC.

 

I know surface fans don't like to talk strategic vision for building a team, but Buddy Nix refusing to draft a young guy in 2011-12 is what has given us the situation Buffalo's in now. You can't say there haven't been options since 2013 without recognizing that past mistakes can affect future seasons. This isn't all Whaley's fault, but the approach since 2013 has been very passive and not consistent with how winning teams address the position.

 

 

 

Dick Jauron took below average to average talent and made it a below average to average team. Now, Doug Marrone is taking above average talent and making them average to below average. Some will say that because he doesn't have a good QB that somehow he's exempt from criticism and needs another year. Bruce Arians is winning with Drew Stanton QBing the Cardinals.

 

Is Doug Marrone going to magically become a better HC in year 3? Is he trending up or stagnated? I tend to think the latter, as evidenced by the decisions I've seen him make this year. He's not innovative, not someone who knows his own talent, and hasn't improved the offense. I guess we can cue someone to say it's not his fault, but I don't need another season to see that.

 

Marrone isn't responsible for 15 years of failure. The point is, you can't continue being mediocre, which is what the Bills are. Next year their best players under contract for 2015 will be a year older and the window closes, unless you somehow begin replacing talent that departs or declines.

 

You are right that you can't blame Marrone for the prior failed generation. But how do you fairly judge a HC that doesn't have a credible qb. If he had an average caliber starting qb then I would be more receptive to damning him. But he, and anyone else at the helm, is doomed to fail until a respectable person is taking the snaps. The HC has a good defense that is playing up to its talent level. But that positive segment of the roster is squandered because the offense can't function with sub-par qbing.

 

It doesn't matter how innovative you are on the offensive side of the ball of the ball if the person taking the snaps can't play at a reasonable level. That is not the HC's fault. That is a front office miscue. Give the HC creidt for being decisive in benching his overwhelmed young qb. That move salvaged the season. The struggling youngster was replaced by a mediocre vagabound qb who is at best a mediocre backup. That's what the HC has to work with.

 

No replacement of the coaching staff is going to make a greater impact than securing a competent qb. Pegula can hire all the high priced football consultants he wants. He is wasting his money. Any fool (including me) can see that unless that position is dramatically upgraded all the other actions mean nothing.

 

If the Bills are counting on EJ to make a quantum leap next year and lead this franchise into a serious playoff contention they are taking a big gamble. Are there free agent qbs on the market who can at least be a reasonable bridge qb until a long term franchise qb is acquired? Possibly? That is a front office responsibility more than it is a HC responsibility. Until the qb situation is clarified churning the coaching staff over is an act of futility.

 

I hate to look backwards but Buddy Nix set this franchise back by a number of years because he was hideously incompetent. The former owner demonstrated his lack of football common sense when he hired Levy/Brandon/ Nix to run the operation. The outcome he got was the outcome that was preordained with his not only bad but weirdness in staffing judgment.

Edited December 10, 2014 by JohnC

[GunnerBill]

Dick Jauron took below average to average talent and made it a below average to average team. Now, Doug Marrone is taking above average talent and making them average to below average. Some will say that because he doesn't have a good QB that somehow he's exempt from criticism and needs another year. Bruce Arians is winning with Drew Stanton QBing the Cardinals.

 

I don't particularly disagree with any of that I think Marrone has an average team that will probably end with the ultimate average record of 8-8 with the talent to be 10 win team. But I don't know how any of it relates to Jauron that is my question. That Jauron bumped along at 7-9 for 3 years is absolutely no indicator of what will happen next year to this team if, as is likely, Marrone survives.

 

Is Doug Marrone going to magically become a better HC in year 3? Is he trending up or stagnated? I tend to think the latter, as evidenced by the decisions I've seen him make this year. He's not innovative, not someone who knows his own talent, and hasn't improved the offense. I guess we can cue someone to say it's not his fault, but I don't need another season to see that.

 

I think he has done a better job as Head Coach this year than he did as Head Coach last year and that is reflected in the record. Has he done a massively better job? No - and that is also indicated in the record. Will he get better? I honestly don't know. I see some of the same problems you do and that's why despite the fact that I have seen improvement I've not seen enough to bang the drum for keeping him.

 

Marrone isn't responsible for 15 years of failure. The point is, you can't continue being mediocre, which is what the Bills are. Next year their best players under contract for 2015 will be a year older and the window closes, unless you somehow begin replacing talent that departs or declines.

 

Of course. The question is how do you stop being mediocre. I tell you one way you definitely don't stop and it is spinning wheels, blowing everything up and cleaning house every 2 minutes. Equally sticking with a below average Head Coach for years on end isn't the way either (Marvin Lewis anyone?). And that is why I am kind of in a quandry on Marrone. I actually think he is a Ron Rivera type of HC. Average but given a really good team one year could have an outstanding season so I find myself conflicted. He has done some good, but there is enough bad to make me question if he is our guy.

 

But my overriding point in response to your initial post is that what happened before has no bearing on what happens now. We should not even consider what happened under Jauron when deciding on Marrone. Judge him on what he has done and the circumstances in which he has done it and nothing else.

[reddogblitz]

You are right that you can't blame Marrone for the prior failed generation. But how do you fairly judge a HC that doesn't have a credible qb. If he had an average caliber starting qb then I would be more receptive to damning him. But he, and anyone else at the helm, is doomed to fail until a respectable person is taking the snaps.

 

Sorry, I view this as a cop. out and not even accurate. Sure, you gotta have a good QB to win. No arguments there. However, a good coach can do pretty well and have winning and even playoff seasons with average QBing (which I believe we have).

 

Examples include Chip Kelly winning with Sanchez/Foles. Bruce Arians is winning with Drew Stanton who is no better than Kyle and maybe even worse. One team even won SB XXV with an average QB who was their backup going into the season ( how can we forget this? ).

 

A better QB would of course help the Bills, but he's what we got and we should have won more than 7 games by now given the talent on this roster (including QB).

[FireChan]

Sorry, I view this as a cop. out and not even accurate. Sure, you gotta have a good QB to win. No arguments there. However, a good coach can do pretty well and have winning and even playoff seasons with average QBing (which I believe we have).

 

Examples include Chip Kelly winning with Sanchez/Foles. Bruce Arians is winning with Drew Stanton who is no better than Kyle and maybe even worse. One team even won SB XXV with an average QB who was their backup going into the season ( how can we forget this? ).

 

A better QB would of course help the Bills, but he's what we got and we should have won more than 7 games by now given the talent on this roster (including QB).

 

Eagles are 3-2 with Sancho as the starter....

[RealityCheck]

No matter who coaches this team, the question remains. Who is the QB to lead a playoff run? If he is not currently on the team, then what difference will coaching make?

[reddogblitz]

No matter who coaches this team, the question remains. Who is the QB to lead a playoff run? If he is not currently on the team, then what difference will coaching make?

 

Yeah. Lets fire Marrone and hire Elmer Fudd until such time as a golden armed franchise QB falls in our lap. Doesn't matter does it. Maybe even let Fred be player/coach.

 

Funny how Bruce Arians can win with Drew Stanton and Bill Parcells can win a Super Bowl with Jeff Hostettler.

[C.Biscuit97]

All true, but since Whaley took over not one good QB has come free on the open market (draft or FA). Not one. The simple fact of the matter is that you simply cannot be a consistent winner in the NFL without an above average (at least) QB. The college QBs available last year were terrible, unfortunately, and this past season the Bills weren't going to trade up and take Bortles. The one arguable thing they could have done is take Manziel, who I think has more potential to be good than many others here. We shall see.

 

Haha, Bortles is awful and worse than EJ ever was as a rookie. Does not mean he can't be good (I was never a fan) but you aren't going to get anywhere with a young QB if you give up on the after 14 games.

 

Yeah. Lets fire Marrone and hire Elmer Fudd until such time as a golden armed franchise QB falls in our lap. Doesn't matter does it. Maybe even let Fred be player/coach.

 

Funny how Bruce Arians can win with Drew Stanton and Bill Parcells can win a Super Bowl with Jeff Hostettler.

 

Great points. Chip Kelly is winning with Mark Sanchez. Harbaugh won with Alex Smith who was a giant bust before he got there. Arians helped develop Andrew Luck. EJ got Nate Hackett. That's bad coaching.

[dave mcbride]

Not everyone can be Ryan Grigson and walk into a job with the top pick and have Andrew Luck fall into your lap. I get that the pickings have been slim at QB since 2013, but the Bills have approached the QB position as if they were waiting for their collective ship to come in. Well, I say swim out to it. You keep trying to get the QB until you know you've got one. The Bills have done anything but, going with a guy, seeing that he's not good enough, then trying someone new, and wasting years in the process. A lot of people here say you can't evaluate Marrone until he gets a QB. Well, who's responsible for obtaining that guy? It's Whaley and Marrone, but for the better part of 2 off-seasons and a regular season they felt comfortable with Manuel. He's proven to not be up to the task. That's on the GM and HC.

 

I know surface fans don't like to talk strategic vision for building a team, but Buddy Nix refusing to draft a young guy in 2011-12 is what has given us the situation Buffalo's in now. You can't say there haven't been options since 2013 without recognizing that past mistakes can affect future seasons. This isn't all Whaley's fault, but the approach since 2013 has been very passive and not consistent with how winning teams address the position.

 

 

Oh, I agree. Also, if we're going to locate one event in which to really go after Nix, it's Russell Wilson. The Bills wanted him and presumably thought he'd be there in the 4th round. After all, Nix said repeatedly before and after the 2013 draft that he had learned that if you wanted a qb, you need to draft him around before you have him slotted. He was almost certainly referring to Wilson. Instead, he traded up for TJ Graham in the third and the rest is history.

 

I'm inclined to gamble and try to sign Sam Bradford. I'm not a huge fan of his, but I'm also no expert and it is the case that he was playing reasonably well before getting hurt in the first half of the 2013 season. I'm not too concerned about the knee injury. He's not particularly mobile and ACLs are fairly easy fixes these days anyway.

Edited December 10, 2014 by dave mcbride

[K-9]

Haha, Bortles is awful and worse than EJ ever was as a rookie. Does not mean he can't be good (I was never a fan) but you aren't going to get anywhere with a young QB if you give up on the after 14 games.

 

 

 

Great points. Chip Kelly is winning with Mark Sanchez. Harbaugh won with Alex Smith who was a giant bust before he got there. Arians helped develop Andrew Luck. EJ got Nate Hackett. That's bad coaching.

 

To be fair to EJ, Sanchez, Smith, and Luck were all far more polished and pro ready than Manuel. I don't think Hackett is as clueless as many believe, either.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[C.Biscuit97]

To be fair to EJ, Sanchez, Smith, and Luck were all far more polished and pro ready than Manuel. I don't think Hackett is as clueless as many believe, either.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

I agree on Luck but you need to refresh your memory on Sanchez and Smith.

 

http://espn.go.com/n...82/mark-sanchez

http://espn.go.com/n...8416/alex-smith

http://espn.go.com/n...15803/ej-manuel

 

EJ's rookie numbers were better than those 2 across the board. In some categories, EJ was far superior.

 

And I do feel bad crushing coaches. I know they work hard. But if Hackett's dad wasn't a NFL coach, he won't have this position. He was an OC for 2 years for an average offense in an average college conference. And he is supposed to develop a raw 1st round QB by himself? Terrible and almost unforgivable decision by Marrone.

 

Hackett at best should be a running backs coach.

Edited December 10, 2014 by C.Biscuit97

[dave mcbride]

Haha, Bortles is awful and worse than EJ ever was as a rookie. Does not mean he can't be good (I was never a fan) but you aren't going to get anywhere with a young QB if you give up on the after 14 games.

 

 

 

Great points. Chip Kelly is winning with Mark Sanchez. Harbaugh won with Alex Smith who was a giant bust before he got there. Arians helped develop Andrew Luck. EJ got Nate Hackett. That's bad coaching.

 

?? - Bortles is a developmental project and I don't know if he's going to be good or not. So much of it depends on his accuracy. I gotta tell you - I haven't come across one outside story or report that says anything other than that Manuel is substandard and a likely bust because of inaccuracy and inadequate field processing. I think the latter can be fixed, but his accuracy at present is terrible. I don't know how that improves. Also, all through camp and preseason we heard how insufficient he was, and it was a consensus. Hell, Geno Smith looks like a lot better thrower to me than Manuel, although Smith has his own set of issues. Maybe it's the case that none of the guys drafted last year are any good??

 

I agree on Luck but you need to refresh your memory on Sanchez and Smith.

 

http://espn.go.com/n...82/mark-sanchez

http://espn.go.com/n...8416/alex-smith

http://espn.go.com/n...15803/ej-manuel

 

EJ's rookie numbers were better than those 2 across the board. In some categories, EJ was far superior.

 

Do inaccurate throwers become more accurate? Forget about the completion rates for a second. That's the real question. A lot of scouts think not, but I'm not an expert or a fortune teller. Accuracy is the arguably most important attribute of a quarterback, and Manuel is horribly inaccurate. As I said above, Geno Smith is a much more accurate thrower than Manuel thus far. I'm not saying he's good, by the way.

[BillsVet]

You are right that you can't blame Marrone for the prior failed generation. But how do you fairly judge a HC that doesn't have a credible qb. If he had an average caliber starting qb then I would be more receptive to damning him. But he, and anyone else at the helm, is doomed to fail until a respectable person is taking the snaps. The HC has a good defense that is playing up to its talent level. But that positive segment of the roster is squandered because the offense can't function with sub-par qbing.

 

It doesn't matter how innovative you are on the offensive side of the ball of the ball if the person taking the snaps can't play at a reasonable level. That is not the HC's fault. That is a front office miscue. Give the HC creidt for being decisive in benching his overwhelmed young qb. That move salvaged the season. The struggling youngster was replaced by a mediocre vagabound qb who is at best a mediocre backup. That's what the HC has to work with.

 

No replacement of the coaching staff is going to make a greater impact than securing a competent qb. Pegula can hire all the high priced football consultants he wants. He is wasting his money. Any fool (including me) can see that unless that position is dramatically upgraded all the other actions mean nothing.

 

If the Bills are counting on EJ to make a quantum leap next year and lead this franchise into a serious playoff contention they are taking a big gamble. Are there free agent qbs on the market who can at least be a reasonable bridge qb until a long term franchise qb is acquired? Possibly? That is a front office responsibility more than it is a HC responsibility. Until the qb situation is clarified churning the coaching staff over is an act of futility.

 

I hate to look backwards but Buddy Nix set this franchise back by a number of years because he was hideously incompetent. The former owner demonstrated his lack of football common sense when he hired Levy/Brandon/ Nix to run the operation. The outcome he got was the outcome that was preordained with his not only bad but weirdness in staffing judgment.

 

After years of missing the playoffs, the problem with the Bills is bigger than who's HC or playing QB. It's the people making the decisions to hire the HC or how they go about identifying and acquiring a QB. While they've moved Brandon from supervising football ops, they've still got football people who strategically don't get it. These same people didn't plan appropriately at QB from 2010-present and traded future picks for a WR who, while he looks excellent, isn't a 1st and 4th better (at this point) than the other 2014 WR options.

 

The point is their plan to win is extremely flawed. A consultant is necessary to evaluate the people who are OBD lifers or hired by the lifers that acclimate to the culture which has taken hold.

 

And then it's imperative for the consultant to educate the owner (who hasn't been in the NFL long) and provide recommendations for the owner to implement. If that means relieving people who've achieved nothing beyond 8 win seasons, so be it. Because right now I think Terry and Kim are learning, but I don't trust the current people at OBD to suggest making changes. The owner needs independent eyes right now.

[C.Biscuit97]

?? - Bortles is a developmental project and I don't know if he's going to be good or not. So much of it depends on his accuracy. I gotta tell you - I haven't come across one outside story or report that says anything other than that Manuel is substandard and a likely bust because of inaccuracy and inadequate field processing. I think the latter can be fixed, but his accuracy at present is terrible. I don't know how that improves. Also, all through camp and preseason we heard how insufficient he was, and it was a consensus. Hell, Geno Smith looks like a lot better thrower to me than Manuel, although Smith has his own set of issues. Maybe it's the case that none of the guys drafted last year are any good??

 

 

 

Do inaccurate throwers become more accurate? Forget about the completion rates for a second. That's the real question. A lot of scouts think not, but I'm not an expert or a fortune teller. Accuracy is the arguably most important attribute of a quarterback, and Manuel is horribly inaccurate. As I said above, Geno Smith is a much more accurate thrower than Manuel thus far. I'm not saying he's good, by the way.

 

It's tough to evaluate. I never got the Bortles hype. He essentially was a less athletic Manuel. His college stats, height, and weight are basically EJ's. Yet he is a top 3 pick and EJ was a reach? The process does not make sense sometimes. EJ's rookie season was far better than Bortles, who was a slam dunk top 5 pick.

 

Mike Vick had his best passing season in like his 10 year under Andy Reid. Steve Young was very inaccuarte early in his career. I'm not going to pretend EJ is going to be Rodgers (who sat behind a HOFer for 3 years). But he could be a threat for a big play with his arms and legs. I feel like a better offensive coaching staff would have EJ further along.

[thewildrabbit]

Sorry, I view this as a cop. out and not even accurate. Sure, you gotta have a good QB to win. No arguments there. However, a good coach can do pretty well and have winning and even playoff seasons with average QBing (which I believe we have).

 

Examples include Chip Kelly winning with Sanchez/Foles. Bruce Arians is winning with Drew Stanton who is no better than Kyle and maybe even worse. One team even won SB XXV with an average QB who was their backup going into the season ( how can we forget this? ).

 

A better QB would of course help the Bills, but he's what we got and we should have won more than 7 games by now given the talent on this roster (including QB).

This~

 

Then look at what Denver did to avoid letting Manning get killed the sack leading defense, and they have arguably the most elite QB in the NFL, He took a step back to only throw it 20 times, and let the run game take over. The Bills did this the first two games of the season by rushing 33 times in each of those wins, and for whatever reason went pass happy ever since. That with non elite QB's, a 2nd year QB, and an average QB.

 

Even if you gave Buffalo Manning, Brady or Brees the Bills still wouldn't win games with 57 passes vs 16 rushes. Look at what happened in St Louis when Manning threw 54 times for 389 yards only to lose. Throwing that much, and that often is not the formula for success. It makes no difference who the QB is for Buffalo as every single one has regressed under Hackett.

 

 

Lastly, I seriously don't get the love for Marrone. Why? because he hired Jim Schwartz who is fielding a championship defense? You guys should be as pissed as I am that probably the best defense since the 90's is being wasted this season with a junior college offense. You all heard Marrone that he didn't even know Hughes was benched, and so he has no input into the defense. Its all Schwartz, and his assistants.

 

 

Hackett at best should be a running backs coach.

yea, maybe for a college team...maybe.

 

I think OC's under Jauron Alex Van pelt, Turk Schonert did better with lesser talent, and where are those two now?

[NickelCity]

OLine and Hackett/whomever is influencing him are the biggest things holding this team back by a mile. I hate going into seasons knowing what our downfall will be. We did that last year. If the OLine isn't fixed and Hackett et al isn't fired, we can just have this convo again next year.

[TheFunPolice]

Marrone brings what to the table, exactly?

 

He obviously doesn't have anything to do with defense (despite his claims) since he was shocked to learn that one of his best players was on the bench.

He obviously has not helped the OL, despite being an OL guy.

His offense is terrible, and if anything, has gotten worse as time has gone on. They dress a guy every week (Goodwin) whose only job is to get a workout in running 40 yard dashes every play. They have what are supposed to be 4 solid RB and cannot run the ball. They line up in the dreaded 3 TE set every other play.

 

So what is it? Organization and leadership? That's the price of admission when you are getting paid millions of dollars to be a professional football coach.

 

Munchak has done wonders for the Steelers OL, which was a tire fire for years. I expected Marrone (two years in) would have this offense clicking by now. Instead, it's pathetic to watch.

[Solomon Grundy]

 

 

Bledsoe?

 

No, he's talking about Brady and how clairvoyant Belichick was.

[dave mcbride]

It's tough to evaluate. I never got the Bortles hype. He essentially was a less athletic Manuel. His college stats, height, and weight are basically EJ's. Yet he is a top 3 pick and EJ was a reach? The process does not make sense sometimes. EJ's rookie season was far better than Bortles, who was a slam dunk top 5 pick.

 

Mike Vick had his best passing season in like his 10 year under Andy Reid. Steve Young was very inaccuarte early in his career. I'm not going to pretend EJ is going to be Rodgers (who sat behind a HOFer for 3 years). But he could be a threat for a big play with his arms and legs. I feel like a better offensive coaching staff would have EJ further along.

I was on board with the EJ back and still think it was an OK gamble. He had the measurables and won consistently at a high-level program. The knock was the simplicity of his game. The accuracy stuff wasn't mentioned as much because you know how college is - some guy is always open because pretty much every team plays zone (otherwise they'd give up TD passes every other play). I haven't given up on him. I'm just very concerned about the accuracy. Are there any examples of guys with poor accuracy who became much more accurate over time? I'm not referring to completion rates, by the way - they aren't indicative. There has to be someone out there ...

[JohnC]

Sorry, I view this as a cop. out and not even accurate. Sure, you gotta have a good QB to win. No arguments there. However, a good coach can do pretty well and have winning and even playoff seasons with average QBing (which I believe we have).

 

Examples include Chip Kelly winning with Sanchez/Foles. Bruce Arians is winning with Drew Stanton who is no better than Kyle and maybe even worse. One team even won SB XXV with an average QB who was their backup going into the season ( how can we forget this? ).

 

A better QB would of course help the Bills, but he's what we got and we should have won more than 7 games by now given the talent on this roster (including QB).

 

Considering what the Bills had at qb coming into this season the Bills were an 8-8 type team, maybe 9-7 at best. The person taking our snaps is a vagabound qb who didn't come into camp until the season was just about to start. He, mediocre as he is, replaced the young starter who was simply (at this point) was not up to the task. Our OL as it stands is less than being below par. The bottom line is on offense because of the qb and line situation this team was never going to be a contending team.

I don't care who the HC is no one is going to overcome the lack of talent on the offensive side of the ball.

 

The worse thing this misbegotten franchise should do is to bring in another coaching staff. The churning of the staff for a franchise that has historically been unstable is to create more instability. The source of the problem is the roster. Until the deficiencies are rectified it doesn't matter who the HC is. Not having an all-star qb is not the issue here. The primary issue is that the team doesn't have a legitimate franchise qb that will enable it to compete at a serious level.

[reddogblitz]

Our OL as it stands is less than being below par. The bottom line is on offense because of the qb and line situation this team was never going to be a contending team.

 

I don't care who the HC is no one is going to overcome the lack of talent on the offensive side of the ball.

 

Have you considered that perhaps the OLine is as bad as it is due to how they are being coached? And maybe the QB because of what he is being asked to do (pass 57 times in a game or take 7 step drops and look for WRs instead of plays to get the football out fast)?

 

Not saying that's the whole cause, but I do think it is a big contributor to our ineptness on offense.

[JohnC]

After years of missing the playoffs, the problem with the Bills is bigger than who's HC or playing QB. It's the people making the decisions to hire the HC or how they go about identifying and acquiring a QB. While they've moved Brandon from supervising football ops, they've still got football people who strategically don't get it. These same people didn't plan appropriately at QB from 2010-present and traded future picks for a WR who, while he looks excellent, isn't a 1st and 4th better (at this point) than the other 2014 WR options.

 

The point is their plan to win is extremely flawed. A consultant is necessary to evaluate the people who are OBD lifers or hired by the lifers that acclimate to the culture which has taken hold.

 

And then it's imperative for the consultant to educate the owner (who hasn't been in the NFL long) and provide recommendations for the owner to implement. If that means relieving people who've achieved nothing beyond 8 win seasons, so be it. Because right now I think Terry and Kim are learning, but I don't trust the current people at OBD to suggest making changes. The owner needs independent eyes right now.

 

This organization has gone through tumult since its inception. With Whaley at the helm and with the opportunity to bring in his own people this historically oddball franchise has at the minimum achieved normalcy. The Levy/Brandon/Nix tenure very much damaged this franchise. Addressing the qb issue under most circumstances is a major challenge. When you have three stooges type staffing making personnel decisions it is an impossible challenge.

 

Pegula can bring in all the expensive consultants he wants and come up with the same major conclusion that you and I advocate for: the priority is getting a legitimate franchise qb to take the snaps, even if it is only a bridge qb until a long-term qb is identified.

 

To be fair if this team had an above average qb when the season started it would not be unreasonable to believe that this team would be in the playoffs, even with an atrocious OL.

 

It might be satisfying for many people to dump the HC because of the repetitive scenario of not being a playoff participant. But getting rid of the HC and doing another front office restructuring doesn't solve anything as much as getting a qb who can play at a high enough level to make this offense more productive.

 

I say this with extreme confidence if Kyle Orton is the starting qb next year the playoff drought streak will continue. I will also say that if EJ is the starter next year he will be better and the streak of playoff drought will still be in effect.

 

Have you considered that perhaps the OLine is as bad as it is due to how they are being coached? And maybe the QB because of what he is being asked to do (pass 57 times in a game or take 7 step drops and look for WRs instead of plays to get the football out fast)?

 

Not saying that's the whole cause, but I do think it is a big contributor to our ineptness on offense.

 

The OL as it is structureed with its type of players, especially at the guard positions--big and slow footed. was flawed to begin with. It's about the talent level. Bad qbing affects the OL, and bad OL play affects the qb play. Mediocrity applied to mediocrity results in mediocrity magnified.

[BillsVet]

Pegula can bring in all the expensive consultants he wants and come up with the same major conclusion that you and I advocate for: the priority is getting a legitimate franchise qb to take the snaps, even if it is only a bridge qb until a long-term qb is identified.

 

To be fair if this team had an above average qb when the season started it would not be unreasonable to believe that this team would be in the playoffs, even with an atrocious OL.

 

It's myopic and an example of small picture thinking to just say if you get a QB then everything falls into place. Who finds the QB? Or do they drop out of the sky?

 

Because you don't invest 1.4B plus and not put independent eyes on your investment. Having said that, do you trust, based on objective evidence, Doug Whaley and crew to make the right decision at the QB position?

[JohnC]

It's myopic and an example of small picture thinking to just say if you get a QB then everything falls into place. Who finds the QB? Or do they drop out of the sky?

 

Because you don't invest 1.4B plus and not put independent eyes on your investment. Having said that, do you trust, based on objective evidence, Doug Whaley and crew to make the right decision at the QB position?

 

You missed my central point. The one transaction that will elevate this franchise more than any other is having a quality qb. For me that is very obvious. No one is saying that other roster issues need not also be addressed, such as the OL. In my opinion this year, even with a flawed roster, if the qbing would have been credible this team would have been in the playoffs.

 

I have no doubt that Pegula is going to talk to a lot of experts regarding the franchise and how it is structured. In fact the restructuring has started with the departure of Littman. It doesn't matter who Pegula talks to when he seeks advice the advice is going to be simple and obvious: get yourself a freaking qb that will enable you to compete!

 

Even Pegula the hockey man can trust his eyes and understand that the level of play of our qbs is handicapping this team. There is no mystery here or genius thought required to figure out what the main problem is with this team (not all the problems),

 

Where you and I disagree is that I believe that Whaley has brought in enough quality staff and restructured the football operation adequately enough. You may not agree with that assessment but I do.

[reddogblitz]

get yourself a freaking qb that will enable you to compete!

 

There ya go Terry. Hop on down to 7-11 and pick you one up.

 

It could be argued that 7-6 is competing.

 

There's probably 20 other teams in the NFL you could give this exact same advice to. Heck, we've tried. Whaley/Marrone have brought in, by my count, 9 QBs since they arrived. EJ, Kolb, Thaddues, Lienert, Tuel Time, Matt Flynn, Dennis Dixon, Jordon Palmer, and Kyle.

 

A motley crew no doubt, but good NFL QBs don't grow on trees. They are hard to find. You can't just throw your hands in the air until you get one. You gotta build a team so that when you do you can win. In the mean time try to find the best you can and win with that. It can be done.

 

And, just because you got one doesn't mean you can compete. Matt Ryan, Drew Brees, Cam Newton,Colin Kaepernick and, Eli Manning are not competing so well this year.

[dave mcbride]

It's myopic and an example of small picture thinking to just say if you get a QB then everything falls into place. Who finds the QB? Or do they drop out of the sky?

 

Because you don't invest 1.4B plus and not put independent eyes on your investment. Having said that, do you trust, based on objective evidence, Doug Whaley and crew to make the right decision at the QB position?

 

Well, they did want to draft Russell Wilson, albeit in the 4th round. That sounds damning - and I guess it is a little - but it is the case that they liked him. It's just that Nix didn't game the draft correctly. That's not misidentifying talent though.

[TheFunPolice]

It could come down to Hackett.

 

I feel like God himself could descend from Heaven, order Marrone to fire Hackett, and St. Doug would say something like "Listen God, obviously there were some plays we want back... some stuff we gotta do better...Okay? Obviously we are gonna work hard to improve and Nate is gonna be the guy to do it. So fly on back up there and let me work, okay?"

[Big Gun]

It's tough to evaluate. I never got the Bortles hype. He essentially was a less athletic Manuel. His college stats, height, and weight are basically EJ's. Yet he is a top 3 pick and EJ was a reach? The process does not make sense sometimes. EJ's rookie season was far better than Bortles, who was a slam dunk top 5 pick.

 

Mike Vick had his best passing season in like his 10 year under Andy Reid. Steve Young was very inaccuarte early in his career. I'm not going to pretend EJ is going to be Rodgers (who sat behind a HOFer for 3 years). But he could be a threat for a big play with his arms and legs. I feel like a better offensive coaching staff would have EJ further along.

 

That right there says all that needs to be said about your football IQ. Obviously, you don't understand it and don't get it. Yet you continue to beat the EJ horse.

[GunnerBill]

Then look at what Denver did to avoid letting Manning get killed the sack leading defense, and they have arguably the most elite QB in the NFL, He took a step back to only throw it 20 times, and let the run game take over. The Bills did this the first two games of the season by rushing 33 times in each of those wins, and for whatever reason went pass happy ever since. That with non elite QB's, a 2nd year QB, and an average QB.

 

Even if you gave Buffalo Manning, Brady or Brees the Bills still wouldn't win games with 57 passes vs 16 rushes. Look at what happened in St Louis when Manning threw 54 times for 389 yards only to lose. Throwing that much, and that often is not the formula for success. It makes no difference who the QB is for Buffalo as every single one has regressed under Hackett.

 

Safe to say we don't agree with each other on everything, but I've consistently agreed with you on this. If you are going to make the play offs, particularly with bottom third of the league Quarterbacking you have to run the football. As soon as the Bills are more than 3 points down in a game they abandon the run. It is so frustrating. Even when you are 14 points down you are allowed to run... someone should tell Hackett. Clearly you can't go run heavy at that point but you can still strive for something approaching balance. The Houston game summed it up... down less than a score through the pick 6 we put the running game on ice and started chucking it with a QB whose confidence had just been shattered by the pick 6. Incomprehensible.

[All_Pro_Bills]

There ya go Terry. Hop on down to 7-11 and pick you one up.

 

It could be argued that 7-6 is competing.

 

There's probably 20 other teams in the NFL you could give this exact same advice to. Heck, we've tried. Whaley/Marrone have brought in, by my count, 9 QBs since they arrived. EJ, Kolb, Thaddues, Lienert, Tuel Time, Matt Flynn, Dennis Dixon, Jordon Palmer, and Kyle.

 

A motley crew no doubt, but good NFL QBs don't grow on trees. They are hard to find. You can't just throw your hands in the air until you get one. You gotta build a team so that when you do you can win. In the mean time try to find the best you can and win with that. It can be done.

 

And, just because you got one doesn't mean you can compete. Matt Ryan, Drew Brees, Cam Newton,Colin Kaepernick and, Eli Manning are not competing so well this year.

There you have it, the core of the problem. We all know you need a good QB but what are the options available for next season? Through the draft, the current roster, free agency. We can debate the degree of impact of a better QB relative to other problems but who exactly are we expecting the Bills to go out and get that will solve the problem?

[C.Biscuit97]

That right there says all that needs to be said about your football IQ. Obviously, you don't understand it and don't get it. Yet you continue to beat the EJ horse.

 

You add nothing with this post. But you're right. Bortles' 23 QBR is evidence why he should be a top 3 pick while EJ's rookie year QBR of 40 is evidence why he was a reach.

 

Great point!

[sjjr]

The biggest disappointment with Marrone has been player development. I thought he would bring along talent, particularly on the O-line, like he did in New Orleans, NY and with Syracuse. He's not produced any Carl Nicks, Brandon Moore's or even Justin Pughs. He inherited a good young LT in Cordy Glenn, who's hasn't improved under Marrone. Whaley gave him 3 draft picks that had all the measurables and needed to be developed. One hasn't even been active, another was pulled and Henderson is playing like this because he came ready to finally live up to his hype. In fact, I can't think of any offensive player that has improved in the last two seasons. There are lots of players who have regressed to me (E.Wood, Urbick, Spiller).

 

It seems like he just hands the defense over to a great defensive coach and let's them do their thing. Both Pettine and Schwartz have done great jobs. They have developed players effectively, like Kiko, Preston Brown, A.Williams, Dareus and Gilmore.

 

He needs to win these last three games or show some young offensive players are developing under his tutelage. If not, he could and should be in trouble.

[Big Gun]

You add nothing with this post. But you're right. Bortles' 23 QBR is evidence why he should be a top 3 pick while EJ's rookie year QBR of 40 is evidence why he was a reach.

 

Great point!

 

Thank You, point proven!