Kelly the Dog Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 The arena in Phoenix opened 22 years ago. Also, it's used at least 80 times a year for mens and women's pro basketball, not 8-10 times for football. At a cost of 151 millionin 2014 dollars, it is a small fraction of what a football stadium would cost minus the goofy tunnelling proposed by these Unicornists. Anyway, it seems that while the Suns arena may have helped, more impressive has been the massive publicly funded downtown development and the completion of a major highway going through down town, from what I read. A new stadium for a handful of games and maybe a few other well attended events will not change doentown Buffalo. 1 billion from the state in development funds over 10 years is more likely to do that. The state would never be able to repay the added expense of a new stadium. All of that came later because the arena was built, people started coming downtown, then restaurants started opening up, then stores and malls, then more businesses and people. It's inarguable to anyone that was there. And yes, there is a big difference in an arena and a stadium because of what you just said, the 80 dates. And a stadium alone is not going to do it. But the arena, Harbor Center, stadium, and its surrounding entertainment, business and hotel accoutrements - all of which are Pegulaville - very much can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJasper Probincrux III Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 (edited) If we're putting a road underground can it please be the 5 so we can get rid of the Skyway? Take this view and subtract the ugly ass bridge (and of course the construction elevator grating) https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/t1.0-9/10351820_545228648932984_3706717411082881883_n.jpg Edited August 7, 2014 by DJasper Probincrux III Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountDorkula Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 If we're putting a road underground can it please be the 5 so we can get rid of the Skyway? I'M one of the very few who think building the city around the skyway would be something cool to see Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 (edited) If we're putting a road underground can it please be the 5 so we can get rid of the Skyway? I'm not sure that building a road underground would make sense since by the time it is finished we are all going to be driving hover cars and stuff like The Jetsons anyway. Edited August 7, 2014 by Kelly the Dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 All of that came later because the arena was built, people started coming downtown, then restaurants started opening up, then stores and malls, then more businesses and people. It's inarguable to anyone that was there. And yes, there is a big difference in an arena and a stadium because of what you just said, the 80 dates. And a stadium alone is not going to do it. But the arena, Harbor Center, stadium, and its surrounding entertainment, business and hotel accoutrements - all of which are Pegulaville - very much can. We can hope, but the history of these things is against it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincec Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 I like it a lot. Now is the time to think boldly. "Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood and probably themselves will not be realized. Make big plans; aim high in hope and work" - Daniel Hudson Burnham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRT88 Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 (edited) So the plan here would be to the I-190 into a tunnel. Oh that's a cheap and smart way of doing things! Edited August 7, 2014 by KRT88 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 The Artvoice hipsters don't like parking ramps/lots downtown. They believe everyone should bike, walk or take public transportation downtown when commuting to work. Therefore, you are correct, tailgating would die or be drastically reduced with a downtown stadium. Ravens Stadium in Baltimore has very little on site parking, yet the fans seem to have a great time each week. Stadium parking lots are way over rated, especially in a downtown environment that already accommodates 50,000 workers each workday... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincec Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 Ravens Stadium in Baltimore has very little on site parking, yet the fans seem to have a great time each week. Stadium parking lots are way over rated, especially in a downtown environment that already accommodates 50,000 workers each workday... Exactly. Donwtown Buffalo doesn't have a parking problem. But for what it's worth, the proposal shows several new decks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 Looking at a Google Earth overhead view of that location, it might even be possible to leave the Thruway where it is if the area between Illinois and Michigan Avenues could be acquired and extended from South Park to Scott Street. Seems like a big enough parcel with even room for some parking, similar to Raven's Stadium. https://www.google.com/maps/place/Buffalo,+NY/@42.8746553,-78.8731578,573m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x89d3126152dfe5a1:0x982304a5181f8171 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T master Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 @JeremyWGR: Not just Artvoice's plan..."people of power and influence" have talked about this idea. Artvoice's stadium plan http://t.co/S5sAhrAqc5 What do you think? I think every thing in life that you succeed at takes a lot of change, devotion & a dream with a lot of ambition behind it to become the best you can be & it's the same with the city of Buffalo the home of our great Buffalo Bills . Not just the city but the entire state has been in a economic funk for years that was why i left in 1985 the economy sucked & i needed to provide other than welfare for my family so C YA ! But even though i live & work else where Western NY will ALWAYS BE HOME !! But in order for Buffalo to change the region needs to get out of the comfort zone of "Well this is the way it is so we'll just go along & not try to change " mentality . Buffalo was once one of the best little cities in the country & could be again but it's going to take these kind of idea's & forward thinking to change the landscape of thought that surround Western NY . For one instead of dumping every last penny the folks of WNY pay in taxes to sum S**T like the new Tapenzee Bridge (which no one wanted or needed) or new stadiums or arena's in the city of ill repute NYC (Barkley Center, Yankee Stadium, Met's Stadium) spend some of that cash back over here in good ole WNY !! Especially seeing as the Bills are the only true NFL NY franchise come on throw us a bone !! I think this plan although it is very labor intense , if the powers that be & those that are stuck in the backwards thinking of (were doing fine the way we are) , could see going forward with something like this it would change the entire economic out look of the Buffalo landscape for ears to come . Of coarse it will have it's risk factor but what change doesn't ? We know how the story has been for the past 40 years i hope they write a new one for the future of not only the city of Buffalo but Buffalo's team !! GO BILLS !!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Barbarian Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 @JeremyWGR: Not just Artvoice's plan..."people of power and influence" have talked about this idea. Artvoice's stadium plan http://t.co/S5sAhrAqc5 What do you think? looks great Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 (edited) For one instead of dumping every last penny the folks of WNY pay in taxes to sum S**T like the new Tapenzee Bridge (which no one wanted or needed) or new stadiums or arena's in the city of ill repute NYC.... No one needs the Tappen Zee bridge??? You have no idea how valuable that bridge is. The northeast would literally be. shutdown without it. Also Barclay Center was built with private money. Edited August 8, 2014 by PromoTheRobot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LabattBlue Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 Ravens Stadium in Baltimore has very little on site parking, yet the fans seem to have a great time each week. Stadium parking lots are way over rated, especially in a downtown environment that already accommodates 50,000 workers each workday... I'm saying that tailgating as it exists at RWS today, will change if it is moved downtown. Hard to envision people throwing a football around, setting up elaborate buffets, etc... from a downtown ramp/small surface lot where they are maximizing space even more than at RWS. Not saying it won't be fun, just that it would be different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solomon Grundy Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 If the Republicans would get off there arses and get the infrastructure bill signed that the President proposed then maybe some off that money could be allocated to help with the plan for the highway and put people to work at a decent wage! IJS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 If the Republicans would get off there arses and get the infrastructure bill signed that the President proposed then maybe some off that money could be allocated to help with the plan for the highway and put people to work at a decent wage! IJS. The mean wage for a highway construction worker is $19 and hour, or 39,500 a year. What will this bill in Congress pay them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Dog Named Kelso Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 If the Republicans would get off there arses and get the infrastructure bill signed that the President proposed then maybe some off that money could be allocated to help with the plan for the highway and put people to work at a decent wage! IJS. Yeah cause that is what happened in 2009 when they voted for the stimulus package. All those "Shovel ready" projects took off and put people back to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jethro_tull Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 For the long term future, renovation and revitalization of the area the stadium should be built in this vicinity, just closer to the water. Buffalo is the waterfront. It is what built the area and made it initially great. It is what makes Buffalo unique. Many examples of how to manage traffic with a W/F stadium- Chicago, San Francisco, etc. You use out lots and shuttles. Soldier Field is a crown jewel of Chicago's lakefront skyline. It helps to show a vital, prosperous image. Nothing advertises a city and region better than an NFL game on national TV. Imagine a lakefront shot, possibly with a western sunset over the water (something few cities in this country have), the shiny new stadium full and illunminated. A Buffalo NY, re-born and vital. DO IT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rubes Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 Running a 6 lane highway directly underneath a building with 65-70k people in it will never ever ever happen in the modern security landscape. They'd have to close the road during games, minimally to truck traffic, probably to everything. The Big Dig has open space on top. I find it odd that more people aren't bringing this up. And I don't see nearly enough parking in that plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 I like this plan mainly for all the changes it makes regarding transportation. Being able to take a train from Syracuse or Rochester straight to the stadium would be absolutely awesome for us Bills fans living several hours away from Buffalo. We had 4 season tickets for years and years but eventually we had to give them up as the trip was just too much, especially for older members of the family. I have made this point in every conversation I have participated in regarding a new stadium for years. At present, you can take a train to buffalo but then you have to get a bus from the station to the stadium. Getting on a train on Sunday morning and relaxing while someone else does the driving and then arriving at the stadium would be incredible. They would instantly regionalize their season ticket sales. It even makes it viable for Bills fans in Albany and Utica to go to a game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRAWNDO Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 If Pegula is successful in purchasing the Bills and a new stadium gets built downtown, I am sure he could arrange a few Sabres Home Games against the Maple Leafs on a Friday/Saturday Night, when the Bills have a home game on Sunday. Downtown would be fun place on those weekends. Another great site would be on an area near FNC. Move HSBC out, place a Hotel with Convention Center there with a new stadium bordered by Mississippi Street/SouthPark/Michigan/Scott Streets. A parking garage could be built to accommodate the lost of the surface parking. This would be an incentive for the Senecas to build a similar hotel/casino structure to the one in NF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solomon Grundy Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 The mean wage for a highway construction worker is $19 and hour, or 39,500 a year. What will this bill in Congress pay them? I'll take 40,000/yr! Besides, how many roads/bridges do you see being worked on? ( insert crickets) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jahbonas Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 I like this plan mainly for all the changes it makes regarding transportation. Being able to take a train from Syracuse or Rochester straight to the stadium would be absolutely awesome for us Bills fans living several hours away from Buffalo. We had 4 season tickets for years and years but eventually we had to give them up as the trip was just too much, especially for older members of the family. I have made this point in every conversation I have participated in regarding a new stadium for years. At present, you can take a train to buffalo but then you have to get a bus from the station to the stadium. Getting on a train on Sunday morning and relaxing while someone else does the driving and then arriving at the stadium would be incredible. They would instantly regionalize their season ticket sales. It even makes it viable for Bills fans in Albany and Utica to go to a game. Absolutely - everyone under estimates the importance of train travel to regionalization of the Buffalo /Niagara Falls /Rochester area. We will never be united as 1 economic zone with out it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 (edited) What is "Artvoice"? Anyway, this plan rests on the same delusion that many others have been built on---that new stadiums turn around the financial fortunes of down on their luck cities. This guy Wales from UB sums up the mythical thinking well with this whopper: [/font][/font] How can he be an academic teaching in this field and not be aware of the mountains of data and papers published refuting what he is claiming? The fact that he throws in the "new convention center" (while stating one of Buffalo's major commercial towers sits empty) shows that he is also ignorant of the well published glut of convention space in this country--that building convention space is routinely a huge waste of public money. A downtonw stadium may be nice, but this plan is dead in the water. The stadium is not the main driver in his "idealistic" urban plan. It is a part of a comprehensive plan that focuses on the waterfront and large segments of undeveloped downtown space. The type a plan he is promoting is the type of project that can take 20 years to complete. It will be a generic plan that directs development in a cohesive way and in manageable stages. The canalside area is already being developed in stages as is one of the most potent economic drivers of the region is being built i.e. the medical corridor. (As noted by many others.) One building block added to another until the critical mass of development carries the momentun for ancillary projects. Don't reflexively be dismissive of what is already going on and what is planned to go on. Just because the aforementioned plan has some improbable aspects to it it doesn't mean that the overall plan isn't viable. The forward momentum is already present and with smart planning and actiion the building blocks will continue to stack up. The convention center that you derisively refer to is part of a comprehensive plan to refurbish a large almost vacant building that includes within the plan office space, condos, hotel, stores etc. There have been a couple of studies dealing with this enormous building that call for similar usage. In other words it isn't as crazy as you make it out to be! Edited August 9, 2014 by JohnC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KollegeStudnet Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 I do dig the Gundlach plan of converting the terminal into the stadium. It has an already potential rail transit system which could pick fans up from Syracuse and Rochester/Toronto and Niagara Falls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRAWNDO Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Sounds like the NFL is going to insist on a new stadium http://www.buffalonews.com/sports/bills-nfl/nfl-renews-push-for-a-new-bills-stadium-20140809 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Jack Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 Syracuse/NYSDOT is looking at what to do about a stretch of I-81 running through downtown, as the bridges are nearing the end of their life. One option mentioned was a tunnel, about the same length as mentioned in this plan. And it's already been rejected as costing to much, over $1B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincec Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 (edited) Tunnels are really the best option for highways running through downtowns, which is why they keep coming up. A surface road cuts a huge swath through the city fabric and essentially destroys the area. In the 70s, the solution was skyway type overpasses but it turns out that people don't really like being under those either. Either keep the highways away from downtown or tunnels are the only two options that allow development, IMO. Edited August 10, 2014 by vincec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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