Moorman being challenged

[kabnt2005]

I agree: the reason you don't see punters and kickers on practice squads normally is that there are not 32 good punters and 32 good kicker sin the league

 

If someone is talented enough to catch a coach's eye for the PS, he is likely talented enough to go play for another team right away

 

It would be no use to put him on the PS honestly. Another team with punter issues will just pluck him off of it.

[K-9]

Seems people have been challenging Mormans from Palmyra to Salt Lake City. Why can't we just let these good people alone?

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Mark Long Beach]

I think this is the year where Brian Moorman finally gets overtaken.....

 

You dont draft a punter unless he is REALLY good.....and from what I hear not only does this kid kick that ball out of the park on kickoffs but has ridiculous hangtime on his punts........

 

Brian has been one of the most consistant players on our team....and just like other players who deserved better like Lee Evans, Aaron Schrobel, etc he is gonna be let go right as this team becomes good again.

 

...wait. We drafted a kicker to boot it out of the endzone on kickoffs (Potter out of W MI). But we ALSO signed a UDFA punter (Powell out of FL St).

 

Potter isnt likely a threat to supplant Lindell since he's not noted for his FG. But he may still stick to the roster just for his kickoffs.

 

Powell IS a threat to Moorman, because he's good and Moorman has been getting worse. And I REALLY like Moorman, He's been one of our very best players over the last decade. He was our number one jersey seller for many years! Which is sad in its own way.

Edited May 18, 2012 by Mark Long Beach

[MRW]

Here's how I think about loyalty. Chan needs to loyal to the whole team and all the fans who want to see the Bills win again. So if Powell is the better punter, he gets the job. Loyalty to the team and fans outweighs loyalty to one player, even one who has been good & loyal to us. That's why Bill Walsh dumped Montana in favor of Young.

And from Chan's quote in the article, he's completely upfront that there is a competition for the job. That's respectful to both players. I don't think, for as great a career Moorman has had with the Bills, he's owed consideration above and beyond that.

[Dennis in NC]

If Powell was drafted to be a kickoff guy, then it might be possible for Potter to stick a spot as a punter plus the kickoff specialist. Cater, the former Bills punter who worked with Potter, said in articles that he was booming kickoffs (tried on spec) into shrubberies well past the back of the end zone. That might be an extra incentive in not tying up that extra roster spot that could prompt a shift for Chan and Buddy.

 

... If Potter can show it.

 

...

Potter was reportedly working with former Chargers punter Darren Bennett, of Aussie extraction, on that and the end-over-end punts that are more difficult to field/catch and typically have a more favorable bounce.

 

Buffalo News article

 

James, you are confusing Potter and Powell here. Pretty easy to do.

 

In the article, it mentions Shawn Powell in HS kicking off and sending the ball OVER the evergreens at the back of the end zone. Powell may be able to handle long kickoffs as well as punting.

 

The way this kid studies punting is impressive, too. Greg Cater was either his HS coach or a kicking coach he consulted with (the latter, I think). He also worked with Darren Bennett on Aussie-style kicking.

 

I really believe Shawn Powell will beat out Brian Moorman for the punting job this year. I am very excited about that possibility.

 

Edited May 18, 2012 by Dennis in AZ

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

i put powell beating moorman at less than 10%

 

with punters and kickers, you go with who you know.

[jasman]

My brother-in-law is a FSU fan and as a result I've watched quite a few FSU games. He really stood out to me as an excellent punter, but I never thought he would end up in Buffalo. I would hate to see Moorman go, but no doubt about it, this guy will challenge him. Field position seems to be a big area of concern this year with the drafting of a kick-off specialist and the signing of a punter who can seriously challenge Moorman.

[BillnutinHouston]

I suspect every GM tries to guard against falling in love with a player, then staying in love too long. A healthy detachment is needed (see the Patriots), and I believe Moorman is a prime example where it will come into play this year.

 

My first reaction to this article was, can the guy function as a holder? Sometimes that role is even more critical than punting. If he can hold for kicks and if Lindell becomes comfortable with him, I think the time has come for a change.

Edited May 19, 2012 by BillnutinHouston

[KOKBILLS]

i put powell beating moorman at less than 10%

 

with punters and kickers, you go with who you know.

 

We'll see...Sooner or later it's time though...No one can play forever...

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

We'll see...Sooner or later it's time though...No one can play forever...

 

Maybe....but one shank or fumbled snap in the pre-season, and Powell is gone.

[CardinalScotts]

If I were coaching and expected to make a playoff run, I would want the veteran punter as things get tight

[Chandler#81]

Going only by memory, I believe Punter has the shortest list of players in team history. Spike Jones, Cater, Maguire, Kidd, Mohr, Brian and a couple others (chime in). Granted, it's only one position so there's only one guy, but as a team, the Bills have been very fortunate to find long term punters through their history. Especially considering the weather challenges!

Team history tells us If Powell wins the job, we just got even better for the long haul. May the best man win!

[Offside Number 76]

http://deadspin.com/5496097/bills-entice-potential-ticket-buyers-with-punt-from-own-end-zone-shining-moment

 

No more of this?

[eball]

i put powell beating moorman at less than 10%

 

with punters and kickers, you go with who you know.

Really? Even if "who you know" has had declining stats for three years running and is no longer considered an elite NFL punter? Doesn't make sense to me. I honestly believe this will be a truly open competition, and if Moorman can hold off the rookie, he deserves the job.

[Doc]

Really? Even if "who you know" has had declining stats for three years running and is no longer considered an elite NFL punter? Doesn't make sense to me. I honestly believe this will be a truly open competition, and if Moorman can hold off the rookie, he deserves the job.

There will definitely be an open competition. There was one last year, and Moorman won.

[UConn James]

Buffalo News article

 

James, you are confusing Potter and Powell here. Pretty easy to do.

 

In the article, it mentions Shawn Powell in HS kicking off and sending the ball OVER the evergreens at the back of the end zone. Powell may be able to handle long kickoffs as well as punting.

 

The way this kid studies punting is impressive, too. Greg Cater was either his HS coach or a kicking coach he consulted with (the latter, I think). He also worked with Darren Bennett on Aussie-style kicking.

 

I really believe Shawn Powell will beat out Brian Moorman for the punting job this year. I am very excited about that possibility.

 

 

Yup. I flipped the names. Not mindin' my Ps and Qs, I guess. Will fix the OP.

 

i put powell beating moorman at less than 10%

 

with punters and kickers, you go with who you know.

 

With kickers, sure, I can see that with high-pressure-50-yarder-to-make-the-playoffs. You need someone who is highly accurate, has the leg, and can handle the situation. Punter has less of a consideration in accuracy and more to do with what I guess one'd call "touch" for pin-down situations, and a boomer leg when either a long punt (i.e. from own endzone) or hang time is needed.

 

Given the givens, I think now might be the best window to make a change, if Powell can show well or at least show an upward progression that will soon bypass Moorman's decline.

[Matt in KC]

So, Powell has a big leg, can kick directionally, and can hold for FGs. Can he cover and tackle if needed (without breaking)?

[Stealth]

The sooner the Bills start becoming a team that wins consistently the better. A 3 page thread on punters lol

[Cash]

I agree: the reason you don't see punters and kickers on practice squads normally is that there are not 32 good punters and 32 good kicker sin the league

 

If someone is talented enough to catch a coach's eye for the PS, he is likely talented enough to go play for another team right away

That's one reason, and the other is that it's called the *practice* squad for a reason. Those 8 guys practice with the team throughout the week. I don't think any team runs an in-season practice that has any use for an extra kicker or punter. I believe Gailey even made a very similar point when Levi Brown was cut (and not offered a spot on the PS), basically saying that they don't have any practice reps available for a 4th QB, so it made no sense to put him on there. Likewise, there's no practice reps available for a 2nd K or P.

 

And he can play special teams!

LOL

 

So, Powell has a big leg, can kick directionally, and can hold for FGs. Can he cover and tackle if needed (without breaking)?

According to the Buffalo News article linked in this thread, he's 6'4", 245 lbs. Doesn't mean he can run, but he should be able to give/take a hit or two. I'd guess he'll outweigh every returner in the NFL by at least 25-30 lbs.

 

Speaking of that article, man is it well-written. After I finished it I basically penciled this guy in for the All-Pro team. Definitely someone to pay attention to in preseason. If he beats out Moorman, I'll be sad to see Brian go, but as others have mentioned, Moorman's performance has noticeably slipped the past few years. At 36, his best years are probably behind him, and the numbers back up what we were perceiving during games. This might be the end of an era. And if so, I'll wish him well. Really like Moorman a lot -- the guy was absolutely elite at his position for a few years, he was always a total class act, he's still one of the best FG holders I've ever seen, he has the best passer rating in team history, and he's crazy fast. He crushed the 40-yard dash and obstacle course competitions at the Pro Bowl for years. If I recall correctly, they actually changed the obstacle course rules one year specifically to prevent him from winning again. Awesome. Plus he had like a 90 speed rating in Madden. I always make him the kickoff specialist and watch him beat the coverage team downfield to make the tackle.

[KOKBILLS]

Maybe....but one shank or fumbled snap in the pre-season, and Powell is gone.

 

I don't know...Again we'll see...I just don't the Bills Management, at this point, are afraid to gamble a bit towards greatness...A player like Moorman is important to a young Team that is building...But The Bills are looking to make a big splash now, and this is an area that could be improved...Would it be a gamble? Sure...But it could pay-off big time...Plus they save some cap dollars and it's not like you're cutting Moorman in his prime...He's 36 years old and showing clear signs of regression...I think if Powell shows he has better upside over the next 3 years or so he's gonna get the job...Just my opinion though...

 

No question Moorman will still be the favorite going in to Camp...But I don't think it's much of a weighted competition...In fact, I think Moorman is going to have to clearly out-perform Powell to retain the job...If they are about the same why not go with the younger, cheaper option?...Because at this point Powell WILL continue to improve...Moorman? Not so much...

[BillsWatch]

Hopefully this will be enough to get Moorman to push a little more in offseason, increasing strength, working with specialist, etc, for there are only so many jobs in NFL. If he got cut I'd guess he'd be signed quickly if not before season starts during season when someone is fading or injured but why would he want that change?

[AJ1]

i put powell beating moorman at less than 10%

 

with punters and kickers, you go with who you know.

 

I believe Moorman's chances of retaining his job are 10% or less. Loyalty for past glories generally earns defeats in the NFL. If Powell's performance upgrades the team, then Moorman's days are numbered.

[Dat Dude]

Powell definitely has a chance. You have to figure that he'll see a lot of snaps in the preseason since the Bills already know what Moorman can do. If he comes out of the gate destroying the ball on each punt, we could very well see Moorman's final days in Buffalo.

 

What's more likely to happen however is that Powell gets cut and is Option #1 in case there is an injury to Moorman or his play declines suddenly in the season.

[vincec]

If I were coaching and expected to make a playoff run, I would want the veteran punter as things get tight

Per Buddy Nix: You always want the arrow pointing up. Is Moorman's arrow pointing down or up? Also, why would a legitimate punter prospect have agreed to come to Buffalo unless he thought that there was a good chance to beat out the incumbent?

 

Always been one of my pet peeves. It's not just that the 'art' of kicking to the corner is gone - but then to add insult by replacing it with the absurd high kick right down the middle of the field - with 99.9999999993% chance it will bound into the end zone or back up the field while some ST 'ace' flails impotently at it while it bounces past. Why the hell WOULDN'T you kick the corner - you can have the same guy running down and flailing at it - with the additional possibility of , hey, it could go out of bounds too! Idiots. And don't tell me it's hard to do. As one of 32 guys in the world with that job, go down to the HS field in the offseason and friggin learn how to do it. It's hard to punt in the NFL...

I would imagine that one reason to kick it high and short is to try and force a fair catch by the return man and thereby create the opportunity for a muff. How much would one fumble at the opp 10 yard line be worth compared to a few more kicks inside the 20? I think that if the game were close or if we were losing I'd be trying to create as many chances for turnovers as possible. If we were cruising and the defense was kicking butt then I'd just try to pin 'em deep with the coffin corner.

Edited May 19, 2012 by vincec

[San Jose Bills Fan]

http://deadspin.com/...-shining-moment

 

No more of this?

But Russ Brandon is a marketing genius.

[justnzane]

Last year, the Bills did have subpar punt coverage, but awesome KO coverage. The biggest thing to notice about Moorman is that he hasn't been as dominant at the coffin corner as he once was. This is a tough skill for the position and even tougher for Moorman as rarely have the Bills put him in a position to kick from outside of the Bills 30.

 

 

If your team has a crap offense that can't move the ball, you need a boomer like Moorman, if you're team has a better offense that stalls outside of field goal range instead, you need a Tom Tupa/Sean Landetta type coffin corner punter.

[Wagon Circler]

I want to know whether he can punt directionally and put the ball in the "coffin corner." There's been a decline of that around the league lately; it's an important play, and until last year, Moorman (as much as I like him) wasn't very good at it.

You completely nailed this one.

He has lost the ability to kill the ball inside the ten and for whatever reason, did not even try to knock it out of bounds, which seems easier.

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

Really? Even if "who you know" has had declining stats for three years running and is no longer considered an elite NFL punter? Doesn't make sense to me. I honestly believe this will be a truly open competition, and if Moorman can hold off the rookie, he deserves the job.

 

yup, even then. There's something taboo in the NFL about changing punters and kickers. There's a reason why guys like Chris Mohr and Chris Gardocki played in the NFL forever, even though they were mediocre punters. They were safe guys--been around, don't get kicks blocked, don't make mistakes.

 

It's like that rookie Giants punter who kicked to DeShean Jackson on the last play of the game. ST coaches have nightmares about stuff like that, which is why it's safer to go with the vet than the rookie.

 

All that said, I think for Powell to even have a chance to make the team, he has to play an error-free preseason, show huge upside and improvement over Moorman, and Moorman must look terrible.

[The Big Cat]

yup, even then. There's something taboo in the NFL about changing punters and kickers. There's a reason why guys like Chris Mohr and Chris Gardocki played in the NFL forever, even though they were mediocre punters. They were safe guys--been around, don't get kicks blocked, don't make mistakes.

 

It's like that rookie Giants punter who kicked to DeShean Jackson on the last play of the game. ST coaches have nightmares about stuff like that, which is why it's safer to go with the vet than the rookie.

 

All that said, I think for Powell to even have a chance to make the team, he has to play an error-free preseason, show huge upside and improvement over Moorman, and Moorman must look terrible.

 

Bro, you're in La La Land.

 

Loyalty shmoyalty. If teams kept guys on the roster for past performances,12, 34 and 78 would stil suit up on Sundays. You're flat out wrong about that.

 

Also, the rookie Giants punter was explicitly told NOT to kick to Jackson, it wasn't a rookie awareness issue, at all. He just had a bad kick.

 

Moorman's walking the plank, face it. I called for his replacement one year ago. Now that we have a worthy heir apparent, I'll be shocked/disappointed if he DOES retain his job.

[beerme1]

The sooner the Bills start becoming a team that wins consistently the better. A 3 page thread on punters lol

 

 

And now 4 pages lol.

 

Would like to say thanks to Moorman. He has been a Great Buffalo Bill. This rookie appears to have shown well in college and this could be the end for Moorman. After seeing him decline the last few years I'm certainly ok with seeing him go though. But really he has been terrific to have had here for so long and I suspect someone else will give him at least a couple more years.

Good luck and than you Brian Moorman

[Dragonborn10]

Moorman is gone. Lindell isn't going anywhere. Potter is not an NFL quality FG kicker by all the reports I have seen. Depsite what Chix have said I still think it will be hard for them to cut a quality DB or DL for a third kicker.

[BRAWNDO]

And now 4 pages lol.

 

Would like to say thanks to Moorman. He has been a Great Buffalo Bill. This rookie appears to have shown well in college and this could be the end for Moorman. After seeing him decline the last few years I'm certainly ok with seeing him go though. But really he has been terrific to have had here for so long and I suspect someone else will give him at least a couple more years.

Good luck and than you Brian Moorman

 

Unfortunately there is no way to recreate the winter conditions at the Ralph to see if the rookie can get it done.

[Ramius]

Any botches you recall?

 

Offhand, i don't remember him flubbing any snaps, and i watch most FSU games.

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

Bro, you're in La La Land.

 

Loyalty shmoyalty. If teams kept guys on the roster for past performances,12, 34 and 78 would stil suit up on Sundays. You're flat out wrong about that.

 

I never said it was about loyalty. It's about being risk averse. Moorman is safer than Powell. Right ot wrong, that's a key criterion for a lot of teams in signing kickers and punters.

 

I think Powell is going to have to be an appreciatively better upgrade (not just an upgrade) in order to unseat Moorman.

[The Big Cat]

I never said it was about loyalty. It's about being risk averse. Moorman is safer than Powell. Right ot wrong, that's a key criterion for a lot of teams in signing kickers and punters.

 

I think Powell is going to have to be an appreciatively better upgrade (not just an upgrade) in order to unseat Moorman.

 

Do you acknowledge the drastic decline in Moorman's performance over the last three years?

[Mark Long Beach]

I never said it was about loyalty. It's about being risk averse. Moorman is safer than Powell. Right ot wrong, that's a key criterion for a lot of teams in signing kickers and punters.

 

I think Powell is going to have to be an appreciatively better upgrade (not just an upgrade) in order to unseat Moorman.

 

I generally agree with you, but not so much here. If he shows about equal talent, I think we keep him over Moorman. Moorman is still a decent punter, but he's lost his elite skills, and at age 36 is definitely on the downslope of his career. His stats match my eyeballs have seen, a downward slope. Maybe M levels out for a while and is just a decent punter. I've no problem with that. But what if he drops off a cliff? He's old by athletic standards, but not wildly old by punter standards.

 

Punter ages from last year:

27, 31, 30, 25, 30, 29, 35, 33, 26

28, 28, 26, 29, 30, (36), 37, 33, 29

24, 38, 23, 33, 26, 24, 32, 25 (that's most of them. I got bored)

 

In that mostly complete list there are 3 older than Moorman. One is Lechler. Jacksonville drafted a guy in the 3rd round to replace a 33yo.

So out of about 30 punters 5 are 35+, as of LAST year. So being over 35 isn't a death sentance but there clearly aren't many. If Powell is good, we'll keep him, so that we'll have the position locked up for 15 years, rather than 1-2?

 

Sometimes you keep a young player that has a likely upside rather than a vet on the slide.

[John from Riverside]

Per Buddy Nix: You always want the arrow pointing up. Is Moorman's arrow pointing down or up? Also, why would a legitimate punter prospect have agreed to come to Buffalo unless he thought that there was a good chance to beat out the incumbent?

 

 

I would imagine that one reason to kick it high and short is to try and force a fair catch by the return man and thereby create the opportunity for a muff. How much would one fumble at the opp 10 yard line be worth compared to a few more kicks inside the 20? I think that if the game were close or if we were losing I'd be trying to create as many chances for turnovers as possible. If we were cruising and the defense was kicking butt then I'd just try to pin 'em deep with the coffin corner.

 

Powell didnt have the option.....he was drafted....

[Ramius]

Powell didnt have the option.....he was drafted....

 

No he wasn't. Potter was drafted. Powell was signed as a UDFA.

[MRW]

I never said it was about loyalty. It's about being risk averse. Moorman is safer than Powell. Right ot wrong, that's a key criterion for a lot of teams in signing kickers and punters.

 

I think Powell is going to have to be an appreciatively better upgrade (not just an upgrade) in order to unseat Moorman.

I disagree. I think if the team is confident that Powell will not be a major step down from Moorman in both punting and holding duties, Moorman is done. Powell is younger and cheaper, and given that he will be expected to improve, I don't think he needs to beat out Moorman outright so much as produce a competitive performance.

[BillsWatch]

Powell didnt have the option.....he was drafted....

 

Don't confuse poster with facts.