C.Biscuit97 Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I love how bipolar sports fans are. 7 games in, Fitz is the greatest thing ever and a potential MVP candidate. 9 games later (and possible broken ribs that a teammate confirm which he didn't say a word about), he is a scrub and worst QB in the league. The defense doesn't win championships is complete BS. The main reason the Giants lost 7 games & almost missed the playoffs entirely is because of their defense. Once their front 4 got healthy, they started shutting down teams. They shut down Rodgers and Brady. GB had a top 5 defense in 2010. The Ravens and 49ers could have both won the championship games this year because of their top 5 defenses starting QBs who may be worse than Fitz. Here's the average points given up by playoff teams this year http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/sort/totalPointsPerGame/position/defense : Pitt 14.2 SF 14.3 Balt 16.6 Hou 17.4 (all the top 4 teams made the playoffs and the number 5 team CLE was coordinated by the great Dick Jauron but I digress) Ciny 20.2 NO 21.2 NE 21.4 ATL 21.9 GB 22.4 DET 24.2 DEN 24.4 NYG 25 (and gave up 14 points game in the playoffs) That is an average of 20.3 for all the playoff teams. The Bills went 6-10. They gave up 27.1 points/ game. They averaged 23.3 point/game. Hmm. It seems that the Bills' offense would have done all right with a playoff type defense (not to mention all the extra benefits of having a good defense - field position, TOP, etc.) Maybe Fitz isn't the devil. Upgrade the defense. I want 3 or 4 pass rushers. I think Mario Williams is a bit overrated (Texans didn't miss a beat without him and he has been injury prone) but sure, throw the house at him. Give Merriman another shot. I still hate that they cut Maybin. Bottomline, in a pass first league, YOU CAN NEVER HAVE ENOUGH PASSRUSHERS. I want 3 or 4 picks on pass rushers. They need to study the Giants model to a T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronc24 Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I love how bipolar sports fans are. 7 games in, Fitz is the greatest thing ever and a potential MVP candidate. 9 games later (and possible broken ribs that a teammate confirm which he didn't say a word about), he is a scrub and worst QB in the league. The defense doesn't win championships is complete BS. The main reason the Giants lost 7 games & almost missed the playoffs entirely is because of their defense. Once their front 4 got healthy, they started shutting down teams. They shut down Rodgers and Brady. GB had a top 5 defense in 2010. The Ravens and 49ers could have both won the championship games this year because of their top 5 defenses starting QBs who may be worse than Fitz. Here's the average points given up by playoff teams this year http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/sort/totalPointsPerGame/position/defense : Pitt 14.2 SF 14.3 Balt 16.6 Hou 17.4 (all the top 4 teams made the playoffs and the number 5 team CLE was coordinated by the great Dick Jauron but I digress) Ciny 20.2 NO 21.2 NE 21.4 ATL 21.9 GB 22.4 DET 24.2 DEN 24.4 NYG 25 (and gave up 14 points game in the playoffs) That is an average of 20.3 for all the playoff teams. The Bills went 6-10. They gave up 27.1 points/ game. They averaged 23.3 point/game. Hmm. It seems that the Bills' offense would have done all right with a playoff type defense (not to mention all the extra benefits of having a good defense - field position, TOP, etc.) Maybe Fitz isn't the devil. Upgrade the defense. I want 3 or 4 pass rushers. I think Mario Williams is a bit overrated (Texans didn't miss a beat without him and he has been injury prone) but sure, throw the house at him. Give Merriman another shot. I still hate that they cut Maybin. Bottomline, in a pass first league, YOU CAN NEVER HAVE ENOUGH PASSRUSHERS. I want 3 or 4 picks on pass rushers. They need to study the Giants model to a T. Then here's hoping they get an Eli Manning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted February 23, 2012 Author Share Posted February 23, 2012 Then here's hoping they get an Eli Manning. You mean the Eli who led the league in INTs in 2010 or the one who won the SB with the worst record ever because his defense got healthier? Look, Eli has improved a lot but he was on the verge of getting run out of town (and the only reason he wasn't is becuase their wasn't a better backup and his last name). Look if you can find an elite guy, get him. But right now, I'm more jealous of the Giants pass rush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronc24 Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) You mean the Eli who led the league in INTs in 2010 or the one who won the SB with the worst record ever because his defense got healthier? Look, Eli has improved a lot but he was on the verge of getting run out of town (and the only reason he wasn't is becuase their wasn't a better backup and his last name). Look if you can find an elite guy, get him. But right now, I'm more jealous of the Giants pass rush. I mean the Eli with two SB rings earned through two fourth quarter comebacks. However, you can side with PDad, who just stated he'd take Fitz over Eli. Edited February 23, 2012 by Marauder24 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I love how bipolar sports fans are. 7 games in, Fitz is the greatest thing ever and a potential MVP candidate. Not in my book. I've always said he's a stop gap and not "great". He takes risks - that can pay off and also give him 2 and 3 INT games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronc24 Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I can guarantee I have never been sold on Fitz. I enjoyed the little early season ride until reality set in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KollegeStudnet Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) Since 2005, Fitz's win loss record is something similar to 20-35-1, with the "one tie" coming from McNabb's OT debacle! Granted all of Fitz's starts were with the Rams, Bengals and Bills, of which have been NOT been the best teams to play on in the past 8 season! EDIT: One more thing I'd like to point out, "it's tough to win in the NFL!" Edited February 23, 2012 by KollegeStudnet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PDaDdy Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) I love how bipolar sports fans are. 7 games in, Fitz is the greatest thing ever and a potential MVP candidate. 9 games later (and possible broken ribs that a teammate confirm which he didn't say a word about), he is a scrub and worst QB in the league. The defense doesn't win championships is complete BS. The main reason the Giants lost 7 games & almost missed the playoffs entirely is because of their defense. Once their front 4 got healthy, they started shutting down teams. They shut down Rodgers and Brady. GB had a top 5 defense in 2010. The Ravens and 49ers could have both won the championship games this year because of their top 5 defenses starting QBs who may be worse than Fitz. Here's the average points given up by playoff teams this year http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/sort/totalPointsPerGame/position/defense : Pitt 14.2 SF 14.3 Balt 16.6 Hou 17.4 (all the top 4 teams made the playoffs and the number 5 team CLE was coordinated by the great Dick Jauron but I digress) Ciny 20.2 NO 21.2 NE 21.4 ATL 21.9 GB 22.4 DET 24.2 DEN 24.4 NYG 25 (and gave up 14 points game in the playoffs) That is an average of 20.3 for all the playoff teams. The Bills went 6-10. They gave up 27.1 points/ game. They averaged 23.3 point/game. Hmm. It seems that the Bills' offense would have done all right with a playoff type defense (not to mention all the extra benefits of having a good defense - field position, TOP, etc.) Maybe Fitz isn't the devil. Upgrade the defense. I want 3 or 4 pass rushers. I think Mario Williams is a bit overrated (Texans didn't miss a beat without him and he has been injury prone) but sure, throw the house at him. Give Merriman another shot. I still hate that they cut Maybin. Bottomline, in a pass first league, YOU CAN NEVER HAVE ENOUGH PASSRUSHERS. I want 3 or 4 picks on pass rushers. They need to study the Giants model to a T. Right on man. This speaks to football being a team sport. The QB can't be looked at in a vacuum. Though the most important position on the team it is the position most dependent and reliant upon the talent around it, the scheme and the team. People are so caught up in the ESPN buzz word opinion making game that they have somehow forgotten teams that win generally play good defense as well or at least when they need to. The best defenses in the playoffs made it the farthest and the best play off defense won it all. You bring up an excellent point that a good defense benefits the offense in field position and opportunities on that side of the ball. This will take pressure off of the offense to score 28+ points a game and improve their field position. It was very apparent that after we suffered some injuries that this team went into pass happy panic mode in the 2nd quarter in many games. This also had the unfortunate side effect of reducing the impact of two of our best weapons on offense FJ and Spiller who emerged this year and proved he is a very capable pure RB both rushing and receiving. In his 3rd year hopefully he gets better at all the little things like blocking. With a full off season and some health I fully expect we will see the team that started the first 5 - 7 games last year every week. The sky is not falling. Let's support this team and wish them health and good luck. I mean the Eli with two SB rings earned through two fourth quarter comebacks. However, you can side with PDad, who just stated he'd take Fitz over Eli. Ah a revisionist historian! I said I would take Fitz over Eli in OUR system. Take away Eli's 8 year stability of coaching and scheme in NY, his pro bowl WRs, the Giants awesome defense that was able to actually get to Brady and what do you have? A great unknown in Eli. I will take Fitz over him in OUR system due to his familiarity and because I know that Fitz was a top 5 QB in the league and leading it at one point before the train wreck of injuries hit us. HUGE difference. Edited February 23, 2012 by PDaDdy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronc24 Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Right on man. This speaks to football being a team sport. The QB can't be looked at in a vacuum. Though the most important position on the team it is the position most dependent and reliant upon the talent around it, the scheme and the team. People are so caught up in the ESPN buzz word opinion making game that they have somehow forgotten teams that win generally play good defense as well or at least when they need to. The best defenses in the playoffs made it the farthest and the best play off defense won it all. You bring up an excellent point that a good defense benefits the offense in field position and opportunities on that side of the ball. This will take pressure off of the offense to score 28+ points a game and improve their field position. It was very apparent that after we suffered some injuries that this team went into pass happy panic mode in the 2nd quarter in many games. This also had the unfortunate side effect of reducing the impact of two of our best weapons on offense FJ and Spiller who emerged this year and proved he is a very capable pure RB both rushing and receiving. In his 3rd year hopefully he gets better at all the little things like blocking. With a full off season and some health I fully expect we will see the team that started the first 5 - 7 games last year every week. The sky is not falling. Let's support this team and wish them health and good luck. Will we also get the benefit of him playing in the same system for 7 years and his far superior WR core? Ah a revisionist historian! I said I would take Fitz over Eli in OUR system. Take away Eli's 7 year stability of coaching and scheme in NY and his pro bowl WRs and what do you have? A great unknown. I will take Fitz over him in OUR system as I know that he was top 5 in the league and leading it at one point before the train wreck of injuries hit us. HUGE difference. I'd continue this battle of wits, but you're only half-armed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I love how bipolar sports fans are. 7 games in, Fitz is the greatest thing ever and a potential MVP candidate. 9 games later (and possible broken ribs that a teammate confirm which he didn't say a word about), he is a scrub and worst QB in the league. The defense doesn't win championships is complete BS. The main reason the Giants lost 7 games & almost missed the playoffs entirely is because of their defense. Once their front 4 got healthy, they started shutting down teams. They shut down Rodgers and Brady. GB had a top 5 defense in 2010. The Ravens and 49ers could have both won the championship games this year because of their top 5 defenses starting QBs who may be worse than Fitz. Here's the average points given up by playoff teams this year http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/sort/totalPointsPerGame/position/defense : Pitt 14.2 SF 14.3 Balt 16.6 Hou 17.4 (all the top 4 teams made the playoffs and the number 5 team CLE was coordinated by the great Dick Jauron but I digress) Ciny 20.2 NO 21.2 NE 21.4 ATL 21.9 GB 22.4 DET 24.2 DEN 24.4 NYG 25 (and gave up 14 points game in the playoffs) That is an average of 20.3 for all the playoff teams. The Bills went 6-10. They gave up 27.1 points/ game. They averaged 23.3 point/game. Hmm. It seems that the Bills' offense would have done all right with a playoff type defense (not to mention all the extra benefits of having a good defense - field position, TOP, etc.) Maybe Fitz isn't the devil. Upgrade the defense. I want 3 or 4 pass rushers. I think Mario Williams is a bit overrated (Texans didn't miss a beat without him and he has been injury prone) but sure, throw the house at him. Give Merriman another shot. I still hate that they cut Maybin. Bottomline, in a pass first league, YOU CAN NEVER HAVE ENOUGH PASSRUSHERS. I want 3 or 4 picks on pass rushers. They need to study the Giants model to a T. Manning threw the most 4th quarter TD passes in a season in NFL history this year. He also recorded the sixth highest passing yardage season in NFL history. In short, his season was incredible. I don't think anyone argues the need for pass rushers, but the only constant in the Giants season was Eli Manning and his passing game, which excelled whether the defense did or not. The Bills passing game is not resilient like that and it does start with the QB. Fitz is an average QB, but priority #1 in the NFL is getting a franchise QB. They make everyone else look better. Including defenses like the Pats and Giants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#34fan Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I love how bipolar sports fans are. 7 games in, Fitz is the greatest thing ever and a potential MVP candidate. 9 games later (and possible broken ribs that a teammate confirm which he didn't say a word about), he is a scrub and worst QB in the league. The defense doesn't win championships is complete BS. The main reason the Giants lost 7 games & almost missed the playoffs entirely is because of their defense. Once their front 4 got healthy, they started shutting down teams. They shut down Rodgers and Brady. GB had a top 5 defense in 2010. The Ravens and 49ers could have both won the championship games this year because of their top 5 defenses starting QBs who may be worse than Fitz. Let's look at the number of INT's thrown, and fumbles lost by each of these playoff QB's Ben Roethlisberger 14 INT 5 lost fumbles Alex Smith 5 INT 2 lost fumbles Joe Flacco 12 INT 6 lost fumbles Andy Dalton 13 INT 2 lost fumbles Drew Brees 14 INT 1 lost fumble Tom Brady 12 INT 2 lost fumbles Matt Ryan 12 INT 3 lost fumbles Aaron Rodgers 6 INT 0 lost fumbles Matt Stafford 16 INT 1 lost fumble Tim Tebow 6 INT 6 lost fumbles (14 games, 11 starts) Eli Manning 16 INT 4 lost fumbles Ryan Fitzpatrick 23 INT 2 lost fumbles Fitz's INT's are roughly DOUBLE the average of these playoff QB's and the MOST of any QB in the league! Defense does help win championships. Still, no defense in the world can overcome a QB who insists on giving the opponent the ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronc24 Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Manning threw the most 4th quarter TD passes in a season in NFL history this year. He also recorded the sixth highest passing yardage season in NFL history. In short, his season was incredible. I don't think anyone argues the need for pass rushers, but the only constant in the Giants season was Eli Manning and his passing game, which excelled whether the defense did or not. The Bills passing game is not resilient like that and it does start with the QB. Fitz is an average QB, but priority #1 in the NFL is getting a franchise QB. They make everyone else look better. Including defenses like the Pats and Giants. Yeah, but what stats make him a franchise QB? Lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prissythecat Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) Let's look at the number of INT's thrown, and fumbles lost by each of these playoff QB's Ben Roethlisberger 14 INT 5 lost fumbles Alex Smith 5 INT 2 lost fumbles Joe Flacco 12 INT 6 lost fumbles Andy Dalton 13 INT 2 lost fumbles Drew Brees 14 INT 1 lost fumble Tom Brady 12 INT 2 lost fumbles Matt Ryan 12 INT 3 lost fumbles Aaron Rodgers 6 INT 0 lost fumbles Matt Stafford 16 INT 1 lost fumble Tim Tebow 6 INT 6 lost fumbles (14 games, 11 starts) Eli Manning 16 INT 4 lost fumbles Ryan Fitzpatrick 23 INT 2 lost fumbles Fitz's INT's are roughly DOUBLE the average of these playoff QB's and the MOST of any QB in the league! Defense does help win championships. Still, no defense in the world can overcome a QB who insists on giving the opponent the ball. How many of those 23 INTs were due to situations in which the ball bounced right off the hands of one of our All Pro receivers ? Also, how many were in situations where we were throwing the ball practically every down to try to catch up since our All Pro defense was letting the opponent score at will? Fitz obviously is not a hall of fame QB but football is a team sport... Edited February 24, 2012 by prissythecat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Right on man. This speaks to football being a team sport. The QB can't be looked at in a vacuum. Though the most important position on the team it is the position most dependent and reliant upon the talent around it, the scheme and the team. People are so caught up in the ESPN buzz word opinion making game that they have somehow forgotten teams that win generally play good defense as well or at least when they need to. The best defenses in the playoffs made it the farthest and the best play off defense won it all. You bring up an excellent point that a good defense benefits the offense in field position and opportunities on that side of the ball. This will take pressure off of the offense to score 28+ points a game and improve their field position. It was very apparent that after we suffered some injuries that this team went into pass happy panic mode in the 2nd quarter in many games. This also had the unfortunate side effect of reducing the impact of two of our best weapons on offense FJ and Spiller who emerged this year and proved he is a very capable pure RB both rushing and receiving. In his 3rd year hopefully he gets better at all the little things like blocking. With a full off season and some health I fully expect we will see the team that started the first 5 - 7 games last year every week. The sky is not falling. Let's support this team and wish them health and good luck. Ah a revisionist historian! I said I would take Fitz over Eli in OUR system. Take away Eli's 8 year stability of coaching and scheme in NY, his pro bowl WRs, the Giants awesome defense that was able to actually get to Brady and what do you have? A great unknown in Eli. I will take Fitz over him in OUR system due to his familiarity and because I know that Fitz was a top 5 QB in the league and leading it at one point before the train wreck of injuries hit us. HUGE difference. Listen Fitz might grow into a good nfl qb. He has some good attributes and like Eli who took a few years to start playing at such a high level, More starts combined with more talent at wr might push him over the hump, but our beloved Fitz will never, not in 100 tries make that throw to manningham to help win the game. Elis arm is money and his pocket prescense and instincts are remarkable. Not the leader his big bro is but very good none the less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted February 24, 2012 Author Share Posted February 24, 2012 Let's look at the number of INT's thrown, and fumbles lost by each of these playoff QB's Ben Roethlisberger 14 INT 5 lost fumbles Alex Smith 5 INT 2 lost fumbles Joe Flacco 12 INT 6 lost fumbles Andy Dalton 13 INT 2 lost fumbles Drew Brees 14 INT 1 lost fumble Tom Brady 12 INT 2 lost fumbles Matt Ryan 12 INT 3 lost fumbles Aaron Rodgers 6 INT 0 lost fumbles Matt Stafford 16 INT 1 lost fumble Tim Tebow 6 INT 6 lost fumbles (14 games, 11 starts) Eli Manning 16 INT 4 lost fumbles Ryan Fitzpatrick 23 INT 2 lost fumbles Fitz's INT's are roughly DOUBLE the average of these playoff QB's and the MOST of any QB in the league! Defense does help win championships. Still, no defense in the world can overcome a QB who insists on giving the opponent the ball. How many of those teams have a receiving core where their highest drafted receiver is a 7th rounder? I also love how everyone is completely ignoring that David Nelson said Fitz broke ribs in the Washington game. Fitz never once used it as an excuse, yet it is completely foolish to not recognize the dropoff in his numbers. Look, I realize Fitz won't be in the Brady, Brees, or Rodgers category. But who is throwing to: Stevie Johnson (who litterally did nothing before he started playing with Fitz) and his merry bunch of undrafted receivers. Does anyone expect any rookie QB would have done any better with that group? You draft a franchise QB if one is available. But as much as I love RG3, you don't murder your draft for him. Build a better team and let Fitz play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Linen Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 (edited) I love how bipolar sports fans are. 7 games in, Fitz is the greatest thing ever and a potential MVP candidate. 9 games later (and possible broken ribs that a teammate confirm which he didn't say a word about), he is a scrub and worst QB in the league. The defense doesn't win championships is complete BS. The main reason the Giants lost 7 games & almost missed the playoffs entirely is because of their defense. Once their front 4 got healthy, they started shutting down teams. They shut down Rodgers and Brady. GB had a top 5 defense in 2010. The Ravens and 49ers could have both won the championship games this year because of their top 5 defenses starting QBs who may be worse than Fitz. Here's the average points given up by playoff teams this year http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/sort/totalPointsPerGame/position/defense : Pitt 14.2 SF 14.3 Balt 16.6 Hou 17.4 (all the top 4 teams made the playoffs and the number 5 team CLE was coordinated by the great Dick Jauron but I digress) Ciny 20.2 NO 21.2 NE 21.4 ATL 21.9 GB 22.4 DET 24.2 DEN 24.4 NYG 25 (and gave up 14 points game in the playoffs) That is an average of 20.3 for all the playoff teams. The Bills went 6-10. They gave up 27.1 points/ game. They averaged 23.3 point/game. Hmm. It seems that the Bills' offense would have done all right with a playoff type defense (not to mention all the extra benefits of having a good defense - field position, TOP, etc.) Maybe Fitz isn't the devil. Upgrade the defense. I want 3 or 4 pass rushers. I think Mario Williams is a bit overrated (Texans didn't miss a beat without him and he has been injury prone) but sure, throw the house at him. Give Merriman another shot. I still hate that they cut Maybin. Bottomline, in a pass first league, YOU CAN NEVER HAVE ENOUGH PASSRUSHERS. I want 3 or 4 picks on pass rushers. They need to study the Giants model to a T. You're talking about a very small minority of fans that have said "Fitz is the greatest thing ever and a potential MVP candidate" and now hate him. Edited February 24, 2012 by Triple Threat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Eli can throw a mean ball sometimes and thats a fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12Kachy Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 F$tzmoney is a back up QB at best. The guy's history says it all. He has a pretty good first half of football, the Fans and FO love him, throw money at him and then he RETURNS back to a back up caliber QB. You can throw the best defense together in the NFL and F$tzmoney is going to throw about the same number of INTs as TDs. Out of 7 years, only 2 did he throw more TDs then INTs. This year: 24 TDs vs 23 INTs. Thats not going to win games if you give it to the other team week in and week out. He is only accurate from -5 to 3 yards as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, He has no one to throw to. Got it. That didn't really help him in Cincinnati. Chad OC, TJ Housh, and those other guys they had there. Out of 8 games, taking over for Palmer, he throw 8 TD and 9 picks WITH OC, HOUSH, J Simpson and A. Caldwell. If F$tzpatrick was a good QB, he will still be on the Rams or Bengals. Instead the Bills grabbed him to back up and the he took over after years of epic failures in the QB department. Adam Sandler would be good at this point. The Bills way overpaid a guy for no reason other then he had a horse shoe where the sun don't shine and the Defense was taking the ball away 3-4 times a game. So I guess you are right. Defense does win games, not the QB who has more opportunities with the ball because of the Defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Barbarian Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 I love how bipolar sports fans are. 7 games in, Fitz is the greatest thing ever and a potential MVP candidate. 9 games later (and possible broken ribs that a teammate confirm which he didn't say a word about), he is a scrub and worst QB in the league. The defense doesn't win championships is complete BS. The main reason the Giants lost 7 games & almost missed the playoffs entirely is because of their defense. Once their front 4 got healthy, they started shutting down teams. They shut down Rodgers and Brady. GB had a top 5 defense in 2010. The Ravens and 49ers could have both won the championship games this year because of their top 5 defenses starting QBs who may be worse than Fitz. Here's the average points given up by playoff teams this year http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/sort/totalPointsPerGame/position/defense : Pitt 14.2 SF 14.3 Balt 16.6 Hou 17.4 (all the top 4 teams made the playoffs and the number 5 team CLE was coordinated by the great Dick Jauron but I digress) Ciny 20.2 NO 21.2 NE 21.4 ATL 21.9 GB 22.4 DET 24.2 DEN 24.4 NYG 25 (and gave up 14 points game in the playoffs) That is an average of 20.3 for all the playoff teams. The Bills went 6-10. They gave up 27.1 points/ game. They averaged 23.3 point/game. Hmm. It seems that the Bills' offense would have done all right with a playoff type defense (not to mention all the extra benefits of having a good defense - field position, TOP, etc.) Maybe Fitz isn't the devil. Upgrade the defense. I want 3 or 4 pass rushers. I think Mario Williams is a bit overrated (Texans didn't miss a beat without him and he has been injury prone) but sure, throw the house at him. Give Merriman another shot. I still hate that they cut Maybin. Bottomline, in a pass first league, YOU CAN NEVER HAVE ENOUGH PASSRUSHERS. I want 3 or 4 picks on pass rushers. They need to study the Giants model to a T. No need to take sides in this argument; they are both responsible for the bad season Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CardinalScotts Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 (edited) I don't think anyone in their right mind is blaming Fitz - just the injuries alone is enough, throw in a defense that gave up 21 or 28 points in the first quarter about every week made it a little easier to play D on anyone. Number wise it's ugly but between last ditch down 25 point forced throws that were picked and the off the hands of guys who aren't NFL receivers or really NFL players added to the mess. He's a good quarter back when like all QB's has players around him they can move the ball and score. When you have no players around you and one of the leagues worst defenses your not going to look good. Pittsburgh won games scoring 17-13-14-20-13-23 Bills lost games scoring 21-23-24-24-20- you can win those with a defense. Also scored 41-38-34-31-40 you cant win consistently forced to score 40 pts to win Edited February 24, 2012 by CardinalScotts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOKBILLS Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Ah a revisionist historian! I said I would take Fitz over Eli in OUR system. Take away Eli's 8 year stability of coaching and scheme in NY, his pro bowl WRs, the Giants awesome defense that was able to actually get to Brady and what do you have? A great unknown in Eli. I will take Fitz over him in OUR system due to his familiarity and because I know that Fitz was a top 5 QB in the league and leading it at one point before the train wreck of injuries hit us. HUGE difference. Oh...You were not joking? Okey doke... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosmicBills Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Anyone who thinks Eli isn't an elite QB hasn't been paying attention to the NFL. The dude is the absolute best right now in the league in the 4th Quarter (and an argument can be made he's always been clutch in the 4th quarter, way more than his brother). Eli has 2 rings and the chance to get a few more before he retires. He's going to be a first ballot hall of famer when he's done. If you had put Fitz on the Giants and Eli on the Bills at the start of this past season, the Bills don't win the Super Bowl. But they make the playoffs. Fitz on the Giants doesn't win the Super Bowl. Sorry. You're a fool if you think Fitz and Eli can be compared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yard Monkey Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 (edited) Anyone who thinks Eli isn't an elite QB hasn't been paying attention to the NFL. The dude is the absolute best right now in the league in the 4th Quarter (and an argument can be made he's always been clutch in the 4th quarter, way more than his brother). Eli has 2 rings and the chance to get a few more before he retires. He's going to be a first ballot hall of famer when he's done. If you had put Fitz on the Giants and Eli on the Bills at the start of this past season, the Bills don't win the Super Bowl. But they make the playoffs. Fitz on the Giants doesn't win the Super Bowl. Sorry. You're a fool if you think Fitz and Eli can be compared. OK, so please explain last year when Elie led the league in INTs at a similar clip to Fitz this year. Does your quote "Anyone who thinks Eli isn't an elite QB hasn't been paying attention to the NFL" still apply? - or do you just pick and choose when to apply it? Edited February 24, 2012 by Yard Monkey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosmicBills Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 OK, so please explain last year when Elie led the league in INTs at a similar clip to Fitz this year. Does your quote "Anyone who thinks Eli isn't an elite QB hasn't been paying attention to the NFL" still apply. - or do you just pick and choose when to apply it? Okay, so you haven't been paying attention. Thanks for supporting the argument. Do not compare Fitz to Manning. It makes you look silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronc24 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Okay, so you haven't been paying attention. Thanks for supporting the argument. Do not compare Fitz to Manning. It makes you look silly. This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yard Monkey Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Okay, so you haven't been paying attention. Thanks for supporting the argument. Do not compare Fitz to Manning. It makes you look silly. I really don't care about whatever argument you are trying to prove or disprove. I was just pointing out that your quote was silly...you didn't question Eli as an elite QB after he was tops in the league in INTs and overall performance last season? I sure did. What exact excuses do you apply and accept for his performance last year or is he just elite some years? Oh, and I think the only comparison I made between Manning and Fitz is how Manning was tops in the league last year and Fitz was this year. That is not a silly comparison given that it is a factual stat they share. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosmicBills Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 I really don't care about whatever argument you are trying to prove or disprove. I was just pointing out that your quote was silly...you didn't question Eli as an elite QB after he was tops in the league in INTs and overall performance last season? I sure did. What exact excuses do you apply and accept for his performance last year or is he just elite some years? Oh, and I think the only comparison I made between Manning and Fitz is how Manning was tops in the league last year and Fitz was this year. That is not a silly comparison given that it is a factual stat they share. Except for the fact that every other part of your comparison is completely foolish. Last year, despite throwing 25 INTs, Eli still lead his team to 10 wins in a much more competitive NFC East, threw for over 4,000 yards, STILL had more TDs to INTs (31 -- a number Fitz has NEVER hit in his life), threw for near 63% completion (for the past 4 years he's been over 60% something Fitz has only done once), he also had a higher average and less sacks. But you're right. It's the same thing as what Fitz did. Give me a break. You are INSANE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yard Monkey Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Except for the fact that every other part of your comparison is completely foolish. Last year, despite throwing 25 INTs, Eli still lead his team to 10 wins in a much more competitive NFC East, threw for over 4,000 yards, STILL had more TDs to INTs (31 -- a number Fitz has NEVER hit in his life), threw for near 63% completion (for the past 4 years he's been over 60% something Fitz has only done once), he also had a higher average and less sacks. But you're right. It's the same thing as what Fitz did. Give me a break. You are INSANE. No need to get hysterical and call me silly, foolish and insane. Think I only made one comparison in both posts. The fact each had the INT lead in the last two seasons. Nothing else...you seem to be taking it to much greater lengths than what I actually had in my posts. I did not claim Fitz is elite or nearly as good or proven as Eli. Fitz still has a lot to prove next season, as far as I am concerned. Especially when he has a real complement of offensive weapons next season (crossing my fingers that between fewer injuries and some good front office moves that will happen). The other point I made, which was my primary point was questioning your statement about Eli being elite and how that can't be questioned. Many people question Eli being elite...especially last year when NY was ready to run him out of town. He was up and down the last few season and hardly considered elite. Really good and maybe great at times , but not elite. With that being said, he had a great run in the playoffs again this year and is now in elite company with 2 SB wins. BUT, both SB wins were team wins and not just Eli. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronc24 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Except for the fact that every other part of your comparison is completely foolish. Last year, despite throwing 25 INTs, Eli still lead his team to 10 wins in a much more competitive NFC East, threw for over 4,000 yards, STILL had more TDs to INTs (31 -- a number Fitz has NEVER hit in his life), threw for near 63% completion (for the past 4 years he's been over 60% something Fitz has only done once), he also had a higher average and less sacks. But you're right. It's the same thing as what Fitz did. Give me a break. You are INSANE. And this. Right on man. This speaks to football being a team sport. The QB can't be looked at in a vacuum. Though the most important position on the team it is the position most dependent and reliant upon the talent around it, the scheme and the team. People are so caught up in the ESPN buzz word opinion making game that they have somehow forgotten teams that win generally play good defense as well or at least when they need to. The best defenses in the playoffs made it the farthest and the best play off defense won it all. You bring up an excellent point that a good defense benefits the offense in field position and opportunities on that side of the ball. This will take pressure off of the offense to score 28+ points a game and improve their field position. It was very apparent that after we suffered some injuries that this team went into pass happy panic mode in the 2nd quarter in many games. This also had the unfortunate side effect of reducing the impact of two of our best weapons on offense FJ and Spiller who emerged this year and proved he is a very capable pure RB both rushing and receiving. In his 3rd year hopefully he gets better at all the little things like blocking. With a full off season and some health I fully expect we will see the team that started the first 5 - 7 games last year every week. The sky is not falling. Let's support this team and wish them health and good luck. Ah a revisionist historian! I said I would take Fitz over Eli in OUR system. Take away Eli's 8 year stability of coaching and scheme in NY, his pro bowl WRs, the Giants awesome defense that was able to actually get to Brady and what do you have? A great unknown in Eli. I will take Fitz over him in OUR system due to his familiarity and because I know that Fitz was a top 5 QB in the league and leading it at one point before the train wreck of injuries hit us. HUGE difference. Take away Eli's two rings and.....oh wait. Nevermind. Lololol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Anyone who thinks Eli isn't an elite QB hasn't been paying attention to the NFL. The dude is the absolute best right now in the league in the 4th Quarter (and an argument can be made he's always been clutch in the 4th quarter, way more than his brother). Eli has 2 rings and the chance to get a few more before he retires. He's going to be a first ballot hall of famer when he's done. If you had put Fitz on the Giants and Eli on the Bills at the start of this past season, the Bills don't win the Super Bowl. But they make the playoffs. Fitz on the Giants doesn't win the Super Bowl. Sorry. You're a fool if you think Fitz and Eli can be compared. Short of it- I agree. Eli is much better than given credit for. At this point his last name might be hurting him more than anything else. When compared to his brother he has a great resume, but the charisma is lacking. He's a little less... Graceful, doesn't look as smooth/polished - but his stats have been great. The goofy open mouth look, harsh ny media and perception he's only a starter cause of his brother add up to something that's utterly not true - that he doesn't belong with the elite.. He's played well. And among the best when it matters most. Fitz hasn't earned the right to be compared yet. He's still in a class with say a kyle orton - which is still valuable where we are, but not in the same talk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted February 24, 2012 Author Share Posted February 24, 2012 Anyone who thinks Eli isn't an elite QB hasn't been paying attention to the NFL. The dude is the absolute best right now in the league in the 4th Quarter (and an argument can be made he's always been clutch in the 4th quarter, way more than his brother). Eli has 2 rings and the chance to get a few more before he retires. He's going to be a first ballot hall of famer when he's done. If you had put Fitz on the Giants and Eli on the Bills at the start of this past season, the Bills don't win the Super Bowl. But they make the playoffs. Fitz on the Giants doesn't win the Super Bowl. Sorry. You're a fool if you think Fitz and Eli can be compared. 1) Great argument style. It's my point, so it must be right. Quality stuff. 2) I never said once that Fitz was better than Eli. But the Eli talk has gotten stupid. He is a year removed from turning the ball over 30 times http://www.nfl.com/player/elimanning/2505996/profile , and because of a hot stretch (this team had the worse record of any team that won the SB ever), he is suddenly a god? Gimme a break. Also in his 2007 Super Bowl championship, he "carried" the Giants to a championship with a 73.9 QB rating, 23 tds, and 27 turnovers. But seriously, he's the reason the Giants have 2 SBs. 3) The main point was about the surrounding cast. Who needs talent at skill positions? I'm sure Eli would be just as good with SJ (7th round), Nelson (UDFA), Jones (UDFA), Roosevelt (UDFA) instead of Nicks (1st rounder), Manningham (3rd rounder), and Cruz (UDFA). Also, before injury, Steve Smith (2nd) was Eli's go to guy. The Giants also have spent a 2nd on Moss' little's brother and a 3rd on Barden. But obviously, the talent level at teh receiving position is exactly the same. 3) Again, the main point was that the surrounding talent on the Giants was much, much better on the Giants. But I'm sure Fitz won't benefit from a defense that featured teh best front 4 in the NFL. Again, if there is a better QB option, by all means go for it. But some fans are completely delusional. You really thought before teh season the Bills had the talent level to be a SB contender. Keep SJ, bring in another legit NFL talented receiver, and follow the Giants method on defense. And if you're going to draft a development QB, please consider Brock Osweiler of ASU. Then if that fails, Matt Barkley will be stepping into a much more talented team than Fitz currently has. And this. Take away Eli's two rings and.....oh wait. Nevermind. Lololol Eli carried this year to the title (and a 9-7 record but I digress) but was freaking awful in 2007 (23 tds to 27 turnovers). They won in spite of him. REvisionist history I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benderbender Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 How many of those 23 INTs were due to situations in which the ball bounced right off the hands of one of our All Pro receivers ? Also, how many were in situations where we were throwing the ball practically every down to try to catch up since our All Pro defense was letting the opponent score at will? Fitz obviously is not a hall of fame QB but football is a team sport... How many games did we lose because of Fitz being either too stupid or too stubborn to admit he was too inured to play. If he sat out 4 weeks and came back healthy, we'd still probably have 4 less losses: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEra Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Fitz is awesome. He should be our starting qb for the next 3-4 years, leading our team to zero playoff appearances. He's awesome..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosmicBills Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 The other point I made, which was my primary point was questioning your statement about Eli being elite and how that can't be questioned. It can't be questioned anymore by anyone with at least an elementary understanding of the sport. Many people question Eli being elite...especially last year when NY was ready to run him out of town. He was up and down the last few season and hardly considered elite. Really good and maybe great at times , but not elite. People used to question it. They can't anymore. Eli has done nothing but progress each and every year he's been in the league. Very few QBs come in and are instantly elite. They either grow into it or they don't. No one crowned Eli elite after his first ring -- because he wasn't. He was clutch (he's the best QB in the 4th quarter in the NFL and has been for 3 years and counting) but he wasn't elite. Still it was argued whether or not he would BECOME elite. But in '08 he got better. Again in '09 and '10 and '11. Now there's no debate. The dude is elite. To say he's not is not an opinion you can debate. It's just a fact that Eli Manning is an elite QB in the NFL. You can't make the argument Fitz is on the same path as Manning. You can't compare him in ANY meaningful way to Fitz. And to argue you can is insanity. It's homerism at it's worst. Thus, you will be called out for being a fool if you attempt to do so. It is my duty. You don't even believe what you're trying to defend, yet you keep defending it! It's crazy! CBiscut at least has an excuse, he believes what he's saying. Fitz has had one average year as a starter in the NFL after being a backup for his first six years. If you want to compare first year starter stats you'd see that Manning in his first year as a starter had just as many TDs, less INTs, near identical numbers in yardage and a lower QB rating. So maybe 6 years from now Fitz will be just as good as Eli is now ... at 36 years old. Awesome. With that being said, he had a great run in the playoffs again this year and is now in elite company with 2 SB wins. BUT, both SB wins were team wins and not just Eli. Every win is a team win. But QB is the most important position in all of sports. They impact the game more than any other position on EITHER side of the ball. The Giants don't win either Super Bowl without Eli Manning -- and if you asked any player on that defense, they'd tell you the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosmicBills Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 1) Great argument style. It's my point, so it must be right. Quality stuff. It's not "my" point. It's a factual statement. Often times on here people, myself included, portray their opinion as fact, but in this case it's actually a fact. Eli Manning is an elite QB. There isn't a GM, Coach, player or analyst in the NFL that would say Eli is NOT an elite QB. 2) I never said once that Fitz was better than Eli. But the Eli talk has gotten stupid. He is a year removed from turning the ball over 30 times http://www.nfl.com/player/elimanning/2505996/profile , and because of a hot stretch (this team had the worse record of any team that won the SB ever), he is suddenly a god? Gimme a break. Also in his 2007 Super Bowl championship, he "carried" the Giants to a championship with a 73.9 QB rating, 23 tds, and 27 turnovers. But seriously, he's the reason the Giants have 2 SBs. Read above -- it's not a one year thing with Eli. He has been in the conversation as being elite for a long time. This year cemented it. If you actually paid attention to things happening outside of Buffalo when it comes to the NFL, you'd understand that fact. Eli is not a one hit wonder and he is not the product of a system. He was brilliant in college, he's brilliant in the NFL -- he just has the personality of a wet paper bag. And he pissed a lot of people off for demanding a trade as a rookie. But to say he's not an elite QB or to pretend it was one hot streak is just ignorant. It's not even something you can debate. Go look at his stats and then count his rings. 3) The main point was about the surrounding cast. Who needs talent at skill positions? I'm sure Eli would be just as good with SJ (7th round), Nelson (UDFA), Jones (UDFA), Roosevelt (UDFA) instead of Nicks (1st rounder), Manningham (3rd rounder), and Cruz (UDFA). Also, before injury, Steve Smith (2nd) was Eli's go to guy. The Giants also have spent a 2nd on Moss' little's brother and a 3rd on Barden. But obviously, the talent level at teh receiving position is exactly the same. Yup. That's it. That's the only reason why Fitz is not Eli. The WRs. QBs make their WRs look good. It's a fact. A WR can make his QB look good too, but more often than not it's the other way around. And in this case, Fitz should get a lot of credit for how good he made the Buffalo WR corps look at times. But to think Eli wouldn't be able to do the same if he were here (and produce better results) is just silly to debate. You're wrong, you know you're wrong, but you want to believe you're right. So it's cool. 3) Again, the main point was that the surrounding talent on the Giants was much, much better on the Giants. But I'm sure Fitz won't benefit from a defense that featured teh best front 4 in the NFL. Again, if there is a better QB option, by all means go for it. But some fans are completely delusional. You really thought before teh season the Bills had the talent level to be a SB contender. Keep SJ, bring in another legit NFL talented receiver, and follow the Giants method on defense. And if you're going to draft a development QB, please consider Brock Osweiler of ASU. Then if that fails, Matt Barkley will be stepping into a much more talented team than Fitz currently has. I know it's low hanging fruit, but in most places, 4 comes after 3. Not 3 again. But that miscalculation might help explain why you're confused when you are trying to compare Eli and Fitz's numbers. Look, this is what drives people nuts on this board. You're arguing 2 different things within your own point and can't understand why people are latching on to one thing. On one hand you're trying to say it's the Bills' front office fault for Fitz sucking because they are not surrounding him with talent. On that point, you and I very much agree. The Bills front office is miserable, and under Ralph's leadership they have produced one of the league's worst products for 12 years and counting. This point you're making is correct. The Bills will never win a super bowl without more talent on the roster. But you're mistaken if you think it's as easy as "keep SJ, adding another legit WR, follow the Giants methods on defense" Regardless of how crazy that last part of your sentence makes you sound (the giant's methods on defense????), the rest of what you say is not going to happen because of the problems with ownership. This team doesn't have a plan. It doesn't have a direction. It's already changed directions midstream with this GM/Coaching tandem, it'll do so again. But instead of focusing on this one point (which is correct), you mix it all up by trying to say Eli isn't elite. That makes everyone else think you're crazy and a lunatic who yells at the grass for growing too loudly and dismiss the rest of your thesis which is actually sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowery4 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 People used to question it. They can't anymore. Eli has done nothing but progress each and every year he's been in the league. Very few QBs come in and are instantly elite. They either grow into it or they don't. No one crowned Eli elite after his first ring -- because he wasn't. He was clutch (he's the best QB in the 4th quarter in the NFL and has been for 3 years and counting) but he wasn't elite. Still it was argued whether or not he would BECOME elite. But in '08 he got better. Again in '09 and '10 and '11.The year he led the league in INTS? Now there's no debate. The dude is elite. To say he's not is not an opinion you can debate. It's just a fact that Eli Manning is an elite QB in the NFL. You can't make the argument Fitz is on the same path as Manning. You can't compare him in ANY meaningful way to Fitz. And to argue you can is insanity. It's homerism at it's worst. Thus, you will be called out for being a fool if you attempt to do so. It is my duty. You don't even believe what you're trying to defend, yet you keep defending it! It's crazy! CBiscut at least has an excuse, he believes what he's saying. I believe ther is no such word as can't and you are always on the negative side of these kind of discussions, that is what I believe. Fitz has had one average year as a starter in the NFL after being a backup for his first six years one mistake this whole thread is making is yes Eli has a great D but no one is mentioning the Oline in front of him and IT's consistency at pass protection and why Eli had such a crap year last year, namely Offensive and Defensive line injuries (sound familar?) . If you want to compare first year starter stats you'd see that Manning in his first year as a starter had just as many TDs, less INTs, near identical numbers in yardage and a lower QB rating. So maybe 6 years from now Fitz will be just as good as Eli is now ... at 36 years old. Awesome. Stats say what ever we want them to, Awesome too. Every win is a team win. But QB is the most important position in all of sports. They impact the game more than any other position on EITHER side of the ball. The Giants don't win either Super Bowl without Eli Manning -- and if you asked any player on that defense, they'd tell you the same thing. Goalie or Pitcher? Stop talking down to people just because you disagree. Disagreeing with you doesn't make them idiots Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICanSleepWhenI'mDead Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 We are putting it in the wrong place . . . I've gotten no complaints about where I've been putting it lately, so speak for yourself! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosmicBills Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 I've gotten no complaints about where I've been putting it lately, so speak for yourself! You mean you finally washed that old tube sock? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICanSleepWhenI'mDead Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 (edited) You mean you finally washed that old tube sock? Well, we are both posting on a football website late at night, so maybe we're kindred spirits. Edited February 24, 2012 by ICanSleepWhenI'mDead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cocktosten Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 I said I would take Fitz over Eli in OUR system. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svwGRJA28lY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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