folz

I stepped away from the board for a couple of days and was surprised when I came back to still see so many posters kvetching. First of all, Sammy, Robert, Marquise, Hogan, Gilmore, Gilislee, etc. are gone. What is the point moaning over it, good decision or bad. Root for the guys who are here. McDermott and Beane are going to have a long leash. They aren't going anywhere soon, so let's give them more than two weeks to see what they are building towards. Secondly, what did some of you expect? It's a new coaching staff, an entirely new receiving corp, a new blocking scheme, a QB who had, what, one practice with his new receiver before week one and a rookie on the other side. Not to mention that most offenses struggled the first two weeks of the season this year. There was no way this team was coming out of the gate on fire. It was obviously going to take this team (the offense more specifically) at least a few weeks to start putting it together. Look at Miami last year (with a new head coach), they started out rough and still wound up in the playoffs. (No, I'm not saying the Bills will make the playoffs, but I'm also not automatically counting them out after just two weeks either, however improbable it may seem at the moment.) And with as many 4-6 win predictions as were made, I'm surprised people are so upset sitting at 1-1, no matter who we played. So many fans wanted us to tank, but are now upset at one loss? I assume those people are already chalking up this Broncos game as a loss too. Not me...Go Bills! Let's put the past behind us and take it one game at a time. We're on to Denver.

I think it is like another poster said upthread...we don't think Tasker is more deserving than TO, but having already picked TO as most likely and assuming that he is a lock (at some point), we chose Tasker for the most deserving category. Of course, we could have instead said TO most likely and most deserving and then made a case for Tasker separately.

Most likely: T.O. will and should get in. But, though it was fun having him for a season, I don't really think of him as a Bill. Most Deserving: Steve Tasker should already be in. When they talk about criteria for the HOF it usually comes down to two things, was the guy transcendent at his position and did he change the game. The answer to both is yes. Probably the best special teamer to ever play (outside of kickers) and he (along with Marv and guys like Mark Pike) made special teams relevant again at that time in the game. Teams had to game plan for him. And on a 4-time Superbowl team with multiple HOFs, his special teams play many a time, turned a game or won a game for his team. He had a huge impact and with so many fewer snaps than the guys starting on O or D. Chuck Knox should eventually get in. Great coach. Though his playoff winning percentage of .389 is probably what hurts his case. O-linemen are tough. It's hard to quantify their careers without solid stats and most people don't understand or watch line play enough to really compare one great O-lineman vs. another. No doubt Kent Hull and Reuben were soooo important to the Bills teams they played on. Kelly often says Hull is the one who really made that offense work. But were they more transcendent than other O-linemen who are in the conversation? I'm not sure. I guess as they said on the John Murphy show, you'd have to talk to the players they played against to stack them up. But I think it may be a tough road for them to get into the HOF. Not that they aren't deserving. Cornelius was a supremely talented athlete who made a lot of impact plays on a 4-time AFC championship team. I think he is on the bubble. But I'd be thrilled if he got in. Darryl Talley was not only the heart and soul of that 4-time AFC championship defense, but its brain and emotion as well. He still sits at 10th All-time in the NFL for total tackles (of all players since the 70s when they started keeping the stat). That stat alone should keep him in the conversation. Not sure if he'll ever get in, but imho, he should get in. Good luck to all of them!

​"All right. Where is the poison? The battle of wits has begun. It ends when you decide and we both drink, and find out who is right, and who is dead...You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders---the most famous of which is 'never get involved in a land war in Asia'---but only slightly less well-known is this: 'Never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line!' Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha..." - Vizzini

Has he ever called an audible and have you ever noticed him call an audible are two different things. I don't pretend to be an expert, but he audibled at least once in week one as the color commentator actually pointed it out.

This kind of post just kills me. I have no problem with posters who think that Tyrod has hit his ceiling and think it isn't good enough; that he won't improve the areas of his game where he is weak. Especially when they point out specifics about his game they have a problem with. I'm personally taking a wait and see approach for this year, yet I do think the team can win with Tyrod. But to just say he sucks and blows is not only pointless, it is wrong. First of all, no one in the league sucks. The worst guy on the worst team is a phenomenal athlete. Secondly, the team won today and Tyrod played well. 222 yds passing, 43 yds. rushing, and 2 TDs is at least adequate, not sucking. If you're actually going to root against the QB of the team that you follow, you can at least discuss what specifically he did in today's game that bothered you. Ya know, actually add to the discussion of football.

Feel bad for him...nice kid and a good ballplayer. Wish him the best!

Good night: Helped their cause Here is who stood out to me (in no particular order) Nathan Peterman Joe Banyard Brandon Reilly Trae Elston EJ Gaines Gerald Hodges Greg Maybin Matt Milano Nick O'Leary Logan Thomas Ian Seau Eddie Yarbrough Jonathan Williams

This. Great analogy BuffaloHokie13.

It was my junior year of college. I had just been home for Christmas and was at Rich Stadium for both the Kelly/Marino 44-34 showdown in the snow and the 51-3 dismantling of the Raiders in the AFC Championship game (thank God for brothers-in-law with season tickets). For Superbowl Sunday, I was back at school in Boston. I had a huge party in my apartment on Charles Street. I went to an arts college, so there were very few sports fans there. But, around 30-40 friends who couldn't have cared less about football came and rooted for the Bills just because they knew how much it meant to me. There were two friends from NYC (also not football fans) who started rooting for the Giants, just because it was New York. And as Norwood's kick went up, about 20 of us were all holding hands...and then, UGH! Like Charlie Brown after Lucy pulls that football away. The last things I remember from that night (from my last somewhat sober moments) were holding my face in my hands as my friends tried to console me and one of my roommates trying to kick out our two friends who were still cheering for the New York win.

I still think this comes down to continuity. Finding a coach who can come in, look at 53 men, with 53 different skill sets and devise a scheme that fits each of their best abilities is like finding that elusive franchise QB. There are only so many of them at any one time in the league. Yes, Bill Belichick seems to be able to do it and maybe there are a few more coaches that can, but that too is a rare talent. And even Belichick is bringing in players that fit "The Patriot Way." But, for the sake of argument, sure, that is one way to win. Have one of the best coaches in the league. Another way to win is to have continuity. A stable FO and coaching staff who have a system they believe in and then giving them enough time (more than 2 years) to build their roster. Once you get through the turmoil, if the system is sound, then you have a roster built for that system and you can continue to draft and bring in players that fit and then you don't have to worry if someone fits the system or not. No one is here if they don't fit the system. And the coach doesn't have to be a genius, just a good leader/teacher with a solid, but somewhat adaptable scheme. I'm thinking of teams like Pittsburgh. Yes, you must have good coaching...but this need to have a coach who can mold a system around his player's talents the way Belichick does just comes from the constant turnover of coaches and schemes our franchise has seen. We like the talent and want it to be used properly, but the players also have to compliment each other as well as what the coaches are trying to do. Every coach will try to put his players in the best position to be successful, but building a team is, as we've been hearing, more than just accumulating talent. It is work ethic, buy in, the players talents complimenting each other, players fitting the schemes the coaches want to run, managing the cap, culture, always looking ahead, etc. I agree with the OP that coaching has been bad throughout the drought, but so too has the FO, and the relationship between the FO and coaches and some years, the talent also. It hasn't been just one thing on its own. I think if we give this new FO and staff some time to build the team they want, in a year or two we won't be discussing guys that don't fit the system anymore or why the coach can't mold someone to fit or why a talented team continues to underachieve. They just won't be relevant questions anymore. I'm not saying it is a guarantee that these guys succeed, but I can guarantee that the playoff drought will continue if ownership isn't eventually patient with someone.

I think your list of locks is right on Wayne. Of the players left to fill those 17 spots, I see two categories (not thinking about possible FA cuts): 10 more players I would expect to make the team at this point: Rod Streater Logan Thomas Adolphus Washington Tanner Vallejo Matt Milano Kevon Seymour Leonard Johnson Shamiel Gary Reggie Ragland Seantrel Henderson (though won't cost against the 53 at the start of the season) On the bubble (7 of these 12 guys make it---special teams a plus here): Joe Banyard Taiwan Jones Philly Brown Brandon Reilly Dakiel Shorts Ryan Davis Deandre Coleman Max Valles Colt Andreson Bacari Rambo Greg Maybin Vlad Ducasse (or another interior lineman)

Fair enough 26CB...and I agree that both were great QBs. And the line about fantasy wasn't directed at you but more at posts like the one below. Just posting stats doesn't tell the full story. Did you ever actually watch Kelly play? Overrated? Just as an experiment (stat-wise) let's look at a couple of things. First, Marino played 17 years in the NFL. Kelly played only 11. Kelly played two years in the USFL. Now comparing those stats to NFL stats may be a bit of comparing apples to oranges, but if you add those in it becomes: Marino: 61,361 yds, 420 TDs in 17 seasons Kelly: 45,309 yds, 320 TDs in 13 seasons You posted Kelly's yearly average, but not Marino's Kelly: 3,485 yds, 25 TDs, 17 INTs Marino: 3,609 yds, 25 TDs, 15 INTs That equates to about 8 yards more per game for Marino and 0.125 fewer Ints/game. Hmmm... Not looking like quite as big of a difference anymore. And if you prorated Kelly's averages out to 17 seasons it would look like this (not saying the length one plays/durability isn't a factor in making a player great, but again, Marino always avoided contact and Kelly took it head on, so goes to figure his career was a bit shorter). Kelly: 59,245 yds, 425 TDs, 289 INTs Marino: 61,361 yds, 425 TDs, 255 INTs Yes, it's just a lot of number crunching, but it shows that the gap probably wasn't as big as it seems on a year to year basis, as opposed to just looking at their overall yards/TDs at the end of their careers.

I guess you stopped watching Kelly's career and the Bills after the 1989 season. Yes, Kelly came in as a cocky SOB. But under Marv/Polian and through the bickering Bills stuff, he matured and became a huge team guy. He had the entire team over to his house after games, look at the relationships the players still have, he never cared about his stats, etc. Yes, Jim had a better supporting cast (at least RB and usually defense) and as I said before Marino was by far the better pure passer (the guy broke just about every record there was), but I would still take Kelly for those precious intangibles. Watching both of their careers side-by-side (yes, with a Bills bias) there is no doubt that Kelly was a better leader and tougher. Marino would throw balls into the ground to avoid getting hit. I don't think I ever saw Marino make a tackle on an interception or get out in front of a RB who had reversed field to block for him. Now a QB shouldn't necessarily do those things because you don't want him getting hurt, but ask the other guys on the team who are constantly putting themselves in harm's way, how they feel about their QB if he does do those things. They follow him. Plus Marino was a whiner with refs, with teammmates. Kelly wasn't. So, no question Marino was a more prolific, skilled passer. His release may have been the quickest I've ever seen. Great player. Great QB. But I'm still picking Kelly as QB of my team. This isn't fantasy, this is football.

Marino was a better passer, but if I'm building a team I take Kelly everyday over Marino for the intangibles (heart, leadership, toughness, smarts, team-focused, etc.).

Great stuff as always Cover1; I really enjoy your breakdowns. A very encouraging look at Poyer's game. Like you said, if we only watch the game once and then look at the stat line, so many great contributions from players get missed/overlooked by us fans. I think the D is going to be fun to watch this year---back to being a stout unit. In the first play that you showed, when he was still a Brown, I love how he holds contain against both the QB and RB until he was sure the RB had the ball and then the RB made his decision on what hole to attack...and then he still got inside quick enough to make the tackle. How many big plays happen because someone didn't set the edge properly. Nice to see.

I'm wondering...in regards to lack of tempo/offense looking flat (bad)...could it partly be bad timing/fatigue in this game? Camp in Rochester broke on Tuesday. The team travelled back to Orchard Park Tuesday afternoon. One night with the families (after being gone for 3 weeks) and then on a plane to Philly the next day. Maybe it was too much (on top of learning new offense, only having Boldin for a week-and-a-half, no Matthews, no Glenn, starting Ducasse, etc.). Look forward to seeing if they show more strongly in the 3rd game. Nice write up OP.

Already in mid-season form: Lorenzo Alexander: Two of the best plays of the night were his smackdown on the Eagles kick returner and running down Wentz from behind. The guy is ageless. Richie Incognito: The only O-lineman who came to play last night. His block on (Dawkins/Jenkins?) out in space on a run was a thing of beauty. LeSean McCoy: Shady gonna be Shady Kyle Williams: Stout up the middle and good penetration. Jerry Hughes: Coming off the ball fast Thank God for vets! Had a good game or flashed: Preston Brown, Joe Banyard (except for the fumble), DeAndre Coleman, Stephen Hauschka, Zay Jones, Matt Milano, Nick O'Leary, Nathan Peterman, Jordan Poyer, Rod Streater (hope he's ok), Brandon Tate, Max Valles, Brandon Reilly. Positives: The defense (especially the run defense). Concerns: The Offensive Line (yikes), Tyrod and the WRs (in the new system---hoping they can build some chemistry in the next couple of weeks), Penalties. Ducasse started over Miller? That actually makes me glad, because I saw the right guard get absolutely blown up on a number of plays early in the game. I was assuming it was Miller. I watched the game on the NFL Game Pass replay and therefore got the Philadelphia announcers, who hardly mentioned a Bills player. So, sometimes it was tough knowing exactly who was in at certain times.

If you're starting Peterman now it would mean you think he gives you the best chance to win. And if that is the case, then isn't it just as probable that he too would lead the team to a 7-9, 8-8 record. Why would the only two scenarios be he takes you to the playoffs or you're a 3-win team? The only thing it would do is give you a better idea if Peterman has the potential moving forward, but you may end up sacrificing quite a bit more---the staff may lose the team, especially the older vets who really want to win now, unless they too really believed that Peterman gave the team a better chance to win.

The guy has only been playing real football again for a week-and-a-half. He's still learning the offense and QB and he was probably playing out of his true position at this point in his career (due to Matthews being hurt). Give him some time fellas. Fans can be so impatient whether it be with rookies developing, players learning a new offense, etc. Of course the game made us nervous about the starting offense, but with new coaches, new system, and so many new players, there was no way they were coming out of the gate explosively. This offense will be a work-in-progress and will take some time to come together. I just hope that it is early in the season and that the defense can carry us until then.

Didn't read through the whole thread, only the first couple of pages, so I apologize if I'm repeating anything, but... Of course they discussed trading Sammy previously. Beane said he's been getting calls about him since June. So, the FO and McD have obviously had lengthy discussions about it. But maybe previously, they didn't feel the deals were good enough or they wanted to make sure and cover themselves for this year with a player to fill in. And then maybe the day of the game the right offers appeared. Maybe one of the teams jumped in, maybe someone upped the ante, maybe the Bills finally found a trade partner to get back the right players to fill in. So, the talks heated up, but Beane didn't want to bring it to Sean before the game because he had a lot to deal with in his first game as a head coach. So, he waited until after the game. They were able to make a quick decision because they had already discussed thoroughly the possibilities, compensation they wanted, etc. But more than all that, what does it really matter who knew when. I felt the same thing when people were up in arms with Whaley and Pegula over the Rex firing. Who cares? It just doesn't matter (to quote Meatballs). If someone did lie in either situation, it was probably just to save someone else some heat in the press. And that is not the type of lie that would make someone a Donohoe in his bunker type.

Kind of disappointed to see the negative posts in a thread started to welcome Jordan to the Bills. Especially since there are plenty of other threads to post your negative opinions in. He didn't ask for this trade and has nothing to do with Sammy no longer being on the team. Don't blame him for this. And in regards to the drops, if you prorated Sammy's 2 drops out to the same number of targets that Matthews had, Sammy would have had 4.5 drops last year. Will a one-and-a-half drops per season difference really change the outcome of this year? 27 players had 5 or more drops last year. 15 had 6 or more drops last year, including Brandon Marshall, Odell Beckham, Michael Crabtree, Mike Evans, Travis Kelce, Demaryius Thomas, and T.Y. Hilton. Not to mention that Jordan was playing with a rookie QB. WELCOME TO BUFFALO JORDAN! I look forward to seeing you play and tear it up for the Bills!

Happy for him. Tough injury just when it looked like his arrow was pointing up. Glad he's getting another shot.

I totally understand the move, wish it was a 6th, but better something than nothing. I will, however, always have a soft spot for the kid because of his reaction when the Bills drafted him (see link) and because he seems like a good person (see his tweet to Buffalo upthread). I wish him success. http://ftw.usatoday.com/2016/05/cardale-jones-2016-nfl-draft-shirt-buffalo-bills