folz

Lost all respect for Reid, Mahomes, and KC during that AFC Championship game last year (with how they acted/carried themselves). Looks like their PR dept. is much the same. So happy for our boys to avenge the loss with class. The looks on the Chiefs players at the end of the game was priceless.

Just when you didn't think you could like Josh anymore than you already do...mic'd up. Love this team and the culture/family/fun aspect it has, and that is first and foremost due to Coach McDermott and what he has built; a close second is having a down-to-earth, non-diva, fun leader in Josh; and finally to Beane, for sharing in McDermott's vision and then bringing in the right guys, not just good football players, but high-character grinders who love the game and are down with the process.

I'm not sure why so many posters are down on Boogie's performance today. As I posted in the Game Balls thread, yes, Boogie had the Offside penalty, but he also led the team with 5 tackles (4 solo), had two tackles for a loss (showed up in the run game, not just as a pass rusher), had 2 QB hits, a sack, and a blocked extra point. Sure, much of his playing time came later, against lesser competition...but I certainly wouldn't call that a bad day for a rookie in only his second game.

Nice. And yeah, Boogie had the Offside penalty, but he also had 5 tackles (4 solo), two tackles for a loss, a sack, two QB hits, and the blocked XP. Not too shabby. Glad to see him show up against the run too...not just as a pass rusher.

Agree with everyone on your list OP. Lots of guys played well today, so I'll add: Gabe Davis: looks as good as he did last year. Catches everything. Tyler Dodson: Great special teams tackle, and was very active on defense with a number of stops, including a thigh tackle to prevent a first down. Reggie Gilliam: 2 TDs, a 12-yard run, a couple of first downs. Nice blocking. Lance Lenoir flashed again with a great toe-line grab Nick McCloud flashed a bit at the end of the game for me. Damar Hamlin looked good too...4 tackles and a QB hit Who blocked that extra point? Bam? It was ninety-something. Couldn't see the 2nd number.

Live in Brooklyn...so about a 7 hour drive (370 miles).

No, no real overarching theme...I just remembered how the 2014 class was hyped so much as possibly the best class ever, so I wanted to try and see kind of where they ranked. (Initially I was thinking about how Benjamin and Watkins hadn't lived up to their potential). I didn't give my own ranking or whatever because I was curious what others thought. But I agree with some of the other posters that 1996 seems like the best. But where would 2014 rank...2nd? Top 3? Top 5? Really just something I decided to look into out of curiosity and thought I'd post about it.

Bored, off-season post: With Kelvin Benjamin signing with the Giants last week, it made me think about the 2014 WR draft class. At the time, and in the first couple of years, it was billed as possibly the greatest WR draft class of all-time. So, after seven years, I wondered if that still held true. 2014 WRs Round (pick) Player Career (rec/yds/TDs) Last two years average or player status 1st (#4) Sammy Watkins 321 for 4,665 and 33 45 for 547 and 3 TDs 1st (#7) Mike Evans 532 for 8,266 and 61 69 for 1,082 and 11 TDs 1st (#12) Odell Beckham, Jr. 487 for 6,830 and 51 49 for 677 and 4 TDs 1st (#20) Brandin Cooks 483 for 6,880 and 40 62 for 867 and 4 TDs 1st (#28) Kelvin Benjamin 209 for 3,021 and 20 was out of league (signed by NYG as TE this year) 2nd (#39) Marquise Lee 174 for 2,184 and 8 out of league 2nd (#42) Jordan Matthews 274 for 3,288 and 22 out of league (was on SF practice squad last year) 2nd (#45) Paul Richardson 238 for 1,804 and 12 out of league 2nd (#53) Davonte Adams 546 for 6,568 and 62 99 for 1,186 and 12 TDs 2nd (#56) Cody Latimer 70 for 935 and 2 out of league 2nd (#61) Allen Robinson 457 for 5,999 and 39 100 for 1,196 and 7 TDs 2nd (#63) Jarvis Landry 636 for 7,028 and 35 78 for 1,007 and 5 TDs 3rd (#86) Josh Huff 51 for 523 and 4 out of league 3rd (#90) Donte Moncrief 205 for 2,576 and 21 5 for 26 and 0 TDs 3rd (#91) John Brown 320 for 4,748 and 31 53 for 759 and 5 TDs 3rd (#97) Dri Archer 3 for 15 and 0 out of league There were 18 more WRs selected in rounds 4-7. The following are the only ones with more than 300 career yards: Bruce Ellington (769 yds) - out of league Martavius Bryant (2,183 yds) - out of league (playing in CFL and Indoor league) Ryan Grant (1,333 yds) - out of the league (playing in the CFL) T.J. Jones (852 yds) - out of the league Quincy Enunwa (1,617 yds) - out of the league (mostly due to injuries) Interesting to note that Jarvis Landry has the 2nd most yards in the class after Mike Evans (although Landry doesn't score as many TDs). Obviously Adams, Landry, and Robinson were the best values in the draft, although I definitely wouldn't have been upset drafting Mike Evans at #7. After seven seasons there are only 10 of 34 WRs from the 2014 draft left in the league...but it's a pretty good group (well 7 or 8 of them at least): Davonte Adams, Mike Evans, Jarvis Landry, Odell Beckham, Jr., Brandin Cooks, Allen Robinson, John Brown, Sammy Watkins, Donte Moncrief, and Kelvin Benjamin So, how do you think they stack up against other great WR classes thus far? Here are a few of the other (Super Bowl era) years considered the best for reference: 1996: Terrell Owens, Keyshawn Johnson, Marvin Harrison, Eric Moulds, Amani Toomer, Joe Horn, Mushin Muhammad, Bobby Engram, Eddie Kennison, Terry Glenn 1988: Michael Irvin, Tim Brown, Sterling Sharpe, Anthony Miller, Quinn Early, Michael Haynes, Flipper Anderson, Brian Blades, Brett Permian 1985: Jerry Rice, Andre Reed, Al Toon, Chris Burkett, Eddie Brown, Jessie Hester, Vance Johnson, Reggie Langhorne, Eric Martin 1974: Lynn Swan, John Stallworth, Billy "White Shoes" Johnson, Roger Carr, Nat Moore, Freddie Scott, Sam McCullum 2001: Reggie Wayne, Chad Johnson, Steve Smith, Santana Moss, T.J. Houshmandzadah, Chris Chambers 1976: Steve Largent, Sammy White, Dave Logan, Henry Marshall, Duriel Harris, Pat Tilley 1991: Herman Moore, Ed McCaffrey, Keenan McCardell, Shawn Jefferson, Rocket Ismail, Jake Reed, Mike Pritchard, Michael Jackson, Jeff Graham 2015: Stephon Diggs, Tyler Lockett, Amari Cooper, Jamison Crowder, Devante Parker 2010: Demaryius Thomas, Dez Bryant, Antonio Brown, Emmanuel Sanders, Golden Tate, Brandon LaFell, Victor Cruz, Eric Decker 2011: Julio Jones, A.J. Green, Randall Cobb, Torrey Smith, Cecil Shorts, Jeremy Kerley, Denarius Moore 1998: Randy Moss, Hines Ward, Tim Dwight, Joe Jurevicius, Az-Zahir Hakim, Kevin Dyson 1986: Ernest Givens, John Taylor, Tim McGee, Webster Slaughter, Mark Jackson, Bill Brooks

No trade. Allen all the way! If Josh isn't as good as Mahomes yet, he's certainly biting at his heels. Plus Josh is the perfect guy for Buffalo and for this team. He wants to be in Buffalo. He loves Buffalo. His attitude and demeanor are so perfect for this city and for leading this team and culture that McDermott and Beane have created. Josh is probably more gifted than Mahomes physically (because of his size and running ability---which I believe to be superior to Mahomes). They both have cannons for arms, so a draw there. They are both uber-competitors..another draw. And Allen is quickly catching up in the mental aspect of the game. Plus I have to say, I really did not like how KC and Mahomes handled themselves in the Championship game last year---not very classy. I'm sure Mahomes is overall a very nice guy...but I didn't love his sportsmanship in that game. To me, even if Mahomes is still currently ahead of Josh, I don't think the difference is big enough for that to be the answer to the original question: "If you could swap any player for any player at the same position, who would it be?" How about swapping Addison for one of the best pass rushers in the league, or Levi for one of the best corners in the league, etc. etc. I think there are a number of other positions where the divide would be greater than between Josh and Patrick at QB.

Just out of curiosity, I wanted to see what the 2020 top passing teams' stats were for just their WRs. So, I subtracted the TE yards from each teams' total passing yards. TOTAL PASSING YARDS OF THE TOP 9 PASSING TEAMS FROM 2020 w/TE PRODUCTION SUBTRACTED (WRs ONLY) BUF 4,344 HOU 4,043 ATL 4,024 DAL 3,877 TB 3,725 LAC 3,670 KC 3,526 DET 3,362 LVR 3,033 Why only 9 teams? Because from the 10th team on, no team's total passing yards (including their TE production) was as much as the Bills WRs on their own. Seems crazy that the most productive WR corps in the league last year, with the top receiver from last year, and their only loss being a net gain by picking up Sanders (Brown had 458 yds and 3 TDs last year; Sanders 726 and 5 TDs), wouldn't be in the conversation. Of the 8 teams selected by NFLonCBS, only 3 were in the top 10 in receiving yards last year. The other 5 teams were ranked 13th, 14th, 16th, 18th, and 24th. I know football is a complex team sport and things can change drastically from one season to the next---and more goes into passing stats than just how good the WRs are (like QB, scheme, O-line, etc.). But the post said, "Who has the best WR corps." You could use a lot of criteria for such a ranking, but to me, the "best" has to mean production. And I do not see how all 8 of those teams leap-frog the Bills group, even weighing in offseason moves (draft and FA). None of those teams acquired a big name free agent WR, and only 4 of those teams spent a high draft pick on a WR [3 late second-rounders (LAR, SEA, CAR), and a third rounder (CLE)]. I'm not saying we are the best/most talented, or whatever...but how are our guys not top 8 with that production (300 yards more than the next team, 1,000 yards better than the 9th team). And even if they were talking about WR duos (because most of the pictures are two players only---even though the title is "corps"), well again, based on last year, wouldn't the best be the players with the most yards? Diggs/Beasley: 2,502 yards Lockett/Metcalf: 2,357 Jefferson/Thielen: 2,325 Anderson/Moore: 2,289 Ridley/Jones: 2,145 (Jones missed 7 games) Lamb/Cooper: 2,049 Kupp/Woods: 1,910 Evans/Godwin: 1,846 (Godwin missed 4 games) Landry/Beckham 1,159 (Odell missed 9 games) I just don't see us dropping from the #1 overall receiver, the #1 overall yards by WRs, the #1 WR duo, #3 overall in passing and receiving (TEs included), all the way down to 9th place or worse. Yes, there are a lot of big names, high draft picks, and talent on that list...but our guys are pretty damn talented too (regardless of draft position or name recognition).

Believe me, I want to see Josh fling it around as much as last season too. And I don't think that we should hamper or pull back on the passing game just for the cliche idea of "balance." (I think grabbing Sanders in FA shows they will still be committed to the pass.) But the problem is, they might not be able to "run the ball when they need to" if they haven't had enough practice at it, so your execution is poor. The balance isn't to appease some old football adage, it is about being sharp enough in both areas of the game that you can turn to either when you need to. And in my opinion, that takes live reps.

Good article. I also missed seeing this before the draft. One of the best things about this current team (FO, coaches, players) is that they actually learn from their mistakes and work hard to fix them. I think Sean and Daboll, without clipping the passing game, will be more focused on the run game this year based on how our playoff run went last season. I mean, if we can see there are issues with the run game, there is no way that Sean and Brandon don't. So, I think they will be more balanced this year. And the more reps the RBs and O-line get, the better the run game will be. I, obviously, have been one of the "It's not the backs or the O-line, it's the lack of focus on, and play calling that held the run game back last year" posters. So, I was happy that we didn't draft a RB. I believe in the guys we got, I really do. But, reading the article, I see that it was probably a bit of both last year (partly on the backs themselves too). Reading the quotes from Hicks, obviously Singletary had aspects of his game that he needed to improve on (all players do, I'm sure). And Moss was a rookie, so still has a lot to learn. So, I absolutely love that Devin is attacking this offseason like he is. Hard not to root for this kid. Growth mindset---that's what coach preaches. And Josh is the perfect example of not writing off or giving up on a young player. Sometimes it's not the skills they lack, it's the knowledge/coaching. What makes us think that a RB won't improve or take a leap up in their game from year 1 to year 2 (Moss) or year 2 to year 3 (Devin)? Also, I love Devin's mindset and demeanor. He's a very mature young man. And I found it interesting that twice he mentioned Stefon Diggs' mindset, etc. I think the impact that Stefon has made in the locker room and practice field has been every bit as important as the passes and TDs he catches on Sundays. Can't wait to see Motor, Moss, and Breida tear it up this year. Go get 'em Devin!

I would put Jerry in the maybe category for now (along with Schobel). There are probably some older players that are still worthy too, but even just talking recent players (last 20 years), I personally would put Fred Jackson, Kyle Williams, and Brian Moorman on the Wall before considering Schobel or Hughes (but don't get me wrong...I love Jerry and don't think he gets as much credit as he deserves for his play over the years). To me, The Wall is about more than just stats or longevity with the team. Those are kind of pre-requisites, but not the deciding factor (unless say the player was a HOF-level player, that's an automatic bid).

Yeah, this is kind of what Beane said they were going to do. Draft for the future. We didn't have many needs and we were picking late. So, how do you maximize your picks when selecting near the end of the draft and with a mind to building for sustained success? Pick the athletic monsters (who would have gone higher with more tape/experience, or whatever), knowing that you have time to groom them into NFl players, rather than selecting a decent player that might help some now, but might never turn into a stud. Yes, there is some risk involved (not all projects develop). But two things mitigate that, we have an excellent teaching staff who have proven they can groom players; and culture...all the guys they picked seem to have that "right DNA"...smart guys who are all about ball and improving, good people, great work ethic, competitive, and coachable. If they don't succeed, it won't be due to lack of effort. So, seems a bit lackluster now, but in 2-3 years we may look back at this draft and say Beane is a wizard. Time will tell.

Very perceptive post...Thanks! A lot of great takes and discussion in this thread. 👍

Yeah, I caught that too. I had to reread it a couple of times...nope, no mention of Matt Ryan (who on the chart was "below average" like Josh). Not even a sidenote of, "well, Ryan is an outlier." The writer just pretends like he isn't even on the list. (Or maybe he doesn't consider Ryan a successful NFL QB, which is also crazy.) Just goes to show the lengths some people will go to promote a certain opinion or agenda. They feel so strongly about it that they demand everyone else agree. The writer of the article threw in a lot of "but who knows how it will play out" sentiment to try and come across as unbiased---like he's just presenting the facts. But boy did he dig to find every crappy statistic, or like-minded "analyst" to paint the picture that Josh will not succeed. (Basically, it would take a miracle according to the article title.) I don't know, I will never understand what happened with Josh pre- and post-draft. The negative opinions seemed so personal. A lot of these people didn't just think he wouldn't succeed. They were rooting for him to fail. Like they were angry at him. And Josh is like the nicest guy---I don't know if I have ever seen a rookie win over a veteran locker room as quickly as he did---even with the so-called "Twitter scandal." And maybe for some, those leaked tweets at draft time did it, but that's not the whole story, because (1) it started long before the Tweets were released, and (2) if anyone took the time to look into that story they would quickly see that Josh wasn't some racist, it was just a young kid repeating a joke he heard on a sitcom, and some rap lyrics. It's just hard to fathom the animosity that has been directed at him. Thank goodness Josh has a tough skin and just let's it all all fuel his play (as if he wasn't already competitive enough).

Yeah, with how tight a ship our front office is these days, my gut says this is a smokescreen and makes me think Etienne is probably not the player they're interested in.

This was my favorite part: "A more advanced system by SB Nation’s Bill Connelly found that a QB’s ceiling in the pros is lower than his college stats, with dozens of previous examples. Well, based on that, Allen’s ceiling is the tall, strong Ryan Mallett. Not Allen’s projection. Allen’s ceiling." "More advanced system" 😂

I think trading up is definitely a possibility (if there's someone they want). It makes a lot of sense. If you keep all of your picks, some of those guys probably won't even make the roster this year. And you're good enough now and deep enough now that you aren't looking to fill out your roster, but instead for a few select high-end players that can help you take the next step. And there are plenty of low-cost free agents still available if you just need depth. The question is how high up could they go and is there a player there that they would be willing to give up the capital for. I think this year's picks are somewhat expendable, but I doubt that Beane wants to give up any high future picks to move up. So, that would limit how high we could get. I also don't think that Beane will part with his number two pick this year (just my opinion---I think they want to come away with at least a couple of guys that can help this year/right away). So, if you packaged your third round and 2 fifth round picks, that would only get you up to maybe 21. (For perspective, if the Bills gave up their entire draft this year---all 9 picks---that would only get them to about pick 14, according to the draft value chart.) So, moving up is definitely a possibility if there is someone they like on the board, but I don't see us moving up more than say 10 picks (to the low 20s) at most. Any players in that range worth moving up for draftniks? [But, again, who knows...Beane is an unpredictable wizard.]

I think he trained Tre White as a goalie though, so maybe that counts. Seriously, Congrats Marv! Well deserved. I think Marv is under-appreciated, even amongst some Bills fans. I have heard people say that with a better coach that 90s Bills team probably wins at least two Super Bowls. But I bet with a different coach, that team of egos and personalities never even comes together into a championship-caliber team, even with all of that talent. Just ask the players if they think they could have done better with a different coach. That team isn't what it was without Marv's leadership.

I think we get two more good years from Cole (but then he'll probably be gone). And, yes, Sanders may be just a one-year rental. So, I wouldn't be upset if they drafted a WR. Probably should have had it at least as a 2nd Tier need.

This is a very good point... Unrestricted Free Agents for 2022 (I only listed players who I expect to have significant playing time and/or are an important backup): Jerry Hughes, Mario Addison, Vernon Butler, Emmanuel Snaders, Mitch Trubisky, Levi Wallace, Taron Johnson, Isiah McKenzie, Siran Neal, Justin Zimmer, Harrison Phillips, Reid Ferguson, Matt Breida, Ike Boettger, Taiwan Jones, Davis Webb. Most of these guys are on one-year deals and could probably be resigned or replaced with a similar player without too much trouble. Obviously the age and contracts for Hughes and Addison makes drafting a DE even more important. I think they'll lock down Taron. Levi, they've been trying to replace since he came...but he keeps holding on. Hopefully, with the draft and development of Dane Jackson, they can move on from him if they want to next year (or resign him to another one-year deal if not). They'll probably give Reid another contract. Sanders and Breida are wildcards---may just be one-year rentals, but if they play really well, maybe you give them another contract. But, not too much to worry about overall, except for DE. Unrestricted Free Agents for 2023 (this year could be a doozy if they don't wrap some of these guys up earlier or in the worst case scenario are ready to let players walk because they aren't playing well enough for a second contract): Josh Allen, Tremaine Edmunds, Mitch Morse, Cole Beasley, Jordan Poyer, A.J. Klein, Ed Oliver, Dawson Know, Devin Singletary, Cody Ford, Darryl Johnson, Mike Love, Dane Jackson, Jaquan Johnson, Tommy Sweeney, Tyler Matekevich Josh will obviously get locked down. I expect them to lock down Edmunds too. I think you look to upgrade Morse (don't offer him a second contract). It may be the end at that point for Cole (because of age/contract). Poyer most likely gets an extension. And the rest hinges on the 2019 draft class really. As far as this year's draft goes, with the thought of looking to the future not just this season, a lot is riding on what the franchise thinks about the 2019 draft class (Oliver, Ford, Singletary, Knox, Bam, J. Johnson, Sweeney). This will be their third season. Which of these guys are they expecting to take the next step and which maybe not. Most of them have flashed, but almost to a man, they need to take that next step this year. They need to become more consistent contributors to hold their spots. So, maybe drafting a center this year (if a good one is available to them) to sit a year or two behind Morse and then be ready to take over makes sense. I don't think they worry about replacing Cole this year. Then it just comes down to the 2019 draft class---are you looking to upgrade/replace any of those guys? So, with all of that, I see our positions of most need as: First Tier DE: makes the most sense as far as immediate need and future need (even though we have some decent, young, developing talent there---but a difference maker is what we are looking for here, not just more competition) TE: it's no secret the team wants a stud TE---again, needs to be a difference maker Center: I really think center would be a good spot to get this year---hopefully the kid is ready to take over for Morse next year (2022), but you basically have two years to develop him if need be CB: we could go into this season just fine, but obviously they would like to upgrade the #2 spot if they can Second Tier Safety: don't need a stud here, just solid depth DT: Depth is always good, but if they are sold on Star and Oliver this spot becomes less important (if not, then this could be a tier 1 need) Guard: This depends on how they feel about Ford (on if this need is more urgent or not) LB: Depth I am not worried about our running backs (I think we are fine there---I think it is more opportunity and scheme rather than talent that held back the running game this year. I do not want the team to draft a RB high, unless he is just standing out like a sore thumb on their draft board). So, first round, you have to be shooting for a top-end DE, CB, or TE I would think (in that order) After that I think you can basically go BPA, with tie-breakers being decided by your needs And I wouldn't mind seeing a center selected in rounds 2 or 3 maybe (especially if the value for your other three top positions isn't there when drafting)

I've always said this about punters, but it goes for all special teams as well. You don't care about them (or don't think about their worth) until you don't have a good one. And then it becomes painfully obvious how important they are. Field position is a huge component of the game and when your special teams stink, you will probably be on the losing end of the field position battle in any given game. Does the OP not remember 2018 when our roster was depleted (to fix the cap situation)? Special teams directly cost us three wins that season, imo.

Thanks Matt...you're a class act and we were proud to have you on the Bills! Thanks for everything you did for Josh and the team! Two-and-a-half seasons is not a long time, but you'll forever be a Bill to us. The best of luck to you and your family going forward.

Trying to assess if J.J. still has enough left in the tank (via stats): AGAINST - At the start of next season, J.J. will be 32-1/2 years old. - He has missed 32 of his last 80 games (over the last 5 years) due to injury - Over the last 5 years, he has only had more than 5 sacks in 1 season (2018), which will be 3 years ago at the start of next season. - He has only had one monster season (2018) since he was the best DE in the league (between 2012-2015) FOR - He did play all 16 games last year and played 91% of Houston's defensive snaps - In the two seasons that he was healthy over the last 5 years (2018 and 2020), his stats were still good...with that monster season in 2018 (16 sacks, 61 tackles) - In 2020, despite his sack total being down (only 5 sacks), his other stats were still pretty good: 52 tackles, 14 tackles for loss, he created 3 turnovers (2 strip sacks and a pick six), at least 6 batted balls at the line, 7 passes defended, 5 sacks, 17 QB knockdowns So, my assessment would be, with the Bills defensive line rotation, he could still be very productive in Buffalo next year. If his snap count goes down from his normal 90% in Houston to say where Jerry's snap count was this year (58%), that should mitigate age and injury risk a bit. I think he could be very valuable to the Bills, I just wouldn't want to break the bank for him at this stage in his career (and because you would be asking him to do/play less than he has to this point in his career).