folz

Sorry for the long post...but hope you read it. I have to agree with MDH. I read an article recently (sorry, can't remember where...but probably related to the Bills) that was talking about how hard it was for coaches to get into the HOF. And one of the things that the voters discuss is how innovative was the coach, did he change or have an affect on the game and how its played? Look at the list of HOFers who were innovators on top of their great records and titles George Allen: "The Future is Now" theme; innovated trades in the league, bringing in vets by giving up future draft choices. Paul Brown: credited w/ making coaching a science (using classroom style/intelligence tests), innovated passing game and created a defense to stop his innovation when other teams started using it. Weeb Eubank: Jets SB victory in SB III brought fans to the game and solidified NFL/AFL merger. Ray Flaherty: Introduced the screen pass and the two platoon (rotation) system to the game. Sid Gillman: "If you want to ring the cash register you have to pass" brought passing game innovations and organizational skills that were copied league wide. George Halas: 1st coach to hold daily practices, utilize film, have games broadcast on the radio. Earl Lambeau: 1st coach to make the forward pass part of the offense. Tom Landry: Perfected the flex defense, the multiple offense and revived the shotgun spread. Marv Levy: Revived importance of the kicking game; No-huddle attack. Earle Neale: Developed Eagle defense which became today's 4-3 defense. Chuck Noll: Innovated how teams dealt with the draft, built team almost exclusively through the draft and shrewd moves on draft day. Steve Owen: Developed the umbrella defense and A-formation offense. Hank Stram: Devised the two TE offense and stack defense. Bill Walsh: developed the west coast style passing game. All of those guys had great records and won 1 or more NFL championships (except for Marv-but 2 Gray Cups, 6 AFC titles, and 4 SB appearences isn't too shaby). Now how many coaches are there in the Hall who aren't credited with an innovation of some sort and how did they get in without being an innovator: Guy Chamberlin: 4 NFL Championships with 3 different teams in a 5 year span; 2 undefeated seasons as player/coach. Jimmy Conzelman: Was a player/coach/owner; 2 NFL titles w/two different teams. Joe Gibbs: Only coach to win 3 SBs w/3 different QBs. Bud Grant: 11 divisional Championships; went to 4 SBs and won one. Vince Lombardi: NEVER had a losing season. Nuff said. (5 NFL titles and 2 SBs). John Madden: 10 years w/ Raiders never had a losing season, highest winning pct. of any coach with more than 100 games. 1 SB title. Don Shula: Winningest coach in NFL history; 33 years with two teams only 2 losing seasons; 1972 undefeated season. Coached in 6 SBs won 2. So, it seems to me that a coach (on top of needing to have a great record and championships) has to have either impacted the game in some way (innovations), proven himself with more than one team and or QB (in Gibbs' situation), or simply be one of the absolute best of all times. Using this criteria Billy B and Billy P are the only coaches now that I would feel comfortable saying are locks. Have any of the other coaches in the league today brought innovations to the game? Proven themselves in more than one place? Or will be considered one of the absolute best ever (on top of having great records and championships)? Look forward to hearing arguments for other guys under these conditions (Holmgren, Shanahan?)

I liked the above post and pretty much agreed...His final analysis seems to be for players still on the team, but in fairness I would go by his words "players worth keeping" and add T Henry and J Jennings as players worth keeping and as starting caliber, even though they're no longer with the team. Travis obviously wasn't one of the premiere backs in the league while in Buffalo, but you can't discount what he did on the field for this team...he was definitely starting caliber. Then I saw Bob in STL's post that said, "Free agency has a lot to do with keeping players and it would be ineteresting to know how many players a team like New england has kept from those same three years." So I thought I'd do a little digging... Patriots Drafts (player info according to NFL.com and Patriots.com) 2001 1st (round) Richard Seymour DT (starter w/Patriots) 2nd Matt Light G (starter w/Patriots) 3rd Brock Williams DB (Out of the League (OL) 4th Kenyatta Jones G (OL) 4th Jabari Holloway TE (OL) 5th Hakim Akbar DB (OL) 6th Arther Love TE (OL) 6th Leonard Myers DB (OL) 7th Owen Pochman K (OL) 7th TJ Turnwe LB (OL) 2002 1st Daniel Graham TE (starter w/Patriots) 2nd Deion Branch WR (starter w/Patriots) 4th Rohan Davey QB (ARZ) 7th Antwine Womack RB (OL) 7th David Givens (TEN) 2003 1st Ty Warren DT (starter w/Patriots) 2nd Eugene Wilson DB (starter w/Patriots) 4th Dan Klecko DT (still w/Patriots) 4th Asante Samuel DB (starter w/Patriots) 5th Dan Koppen C (starter w/Patriots) 6th Kliff Kingsbury QB (NYJ) 7th Spencer Nead TE (OL) 7th Tully Banta-Cain LB (starter w/Patriots) 7th Ethan Kelley NT (CLE) So TD's 3-year record: 30 picks, 22 still in the league (73.33%), 14 worth keeping (46.66%), 6 starting caliber (including Henry and Jennings) (20%). Patriots 3-year record: 24 picks, 14 still in the league (58.33%), 11 worth keeping (if you count Givens in that) (45.83%), 10 starting caliber (again if you include Givens who started the majority of games the last two years) (41.66%) So Len P. can congratulate TD all he wants for still having players in the league because TD does have 15% more players still in the league from those three drafts than does NE... But I'd take NE's almost 42% starting caliber players over TD's paltry 20% any day...and that's with NE having 5 fewer 1st day picks in those three drafts. Maybe some of the sports writers/broadcasters really like TD and that's ok, but they do seem overly anxious to criticize the Bills (be it for TD or RW and the CBA)...and they didn't live the last five years as a Bills fan... We Bills fans are starting to see an organization with a plan to rebuild a football team, not just create pre-season excitement and revenue...it may take the media a while to see that...whether the new plan works or not, no one knows yet...but I for one have a feeling that we're crawling slowly out of the cellar that TD's decisions and drafts put us in.