The primary problem with the long conversions

[Simon]

There's a complete lack of cohesion in the secondary right now, and before our WGR-quality whiners chime in, it's not anybody's fault.

They are trying to work 4 new guys (two of them rookies) into 2 spots all at the same time as a result of injuries. They are playing most of their snaps every game with a crew of DBs who are in places they're not used to and have had no chance to consistently play with each other at any time this year. Toss in losing Taron and now both their nickel and dime are being manned by yet two more new guys in roles they're not accustomed to and their lack of familiarity with their roles and each other which ratchets up that lack of cohesion by yet another order of magnitude.

Their communication is not there, their pass-offs are balky, they're ending up in the wrong part of their zones because of it and it's inevitably going to be a messy, messy mess in the short term, particularly with a DC who has already been struggling for the whole year to have them on the same page.

I think they can ameliorate it by just making 3 permanent switches right now and stop trying to pull off the juggling act while you acclimate new guys in. Just tear off the bandaid tomorrow morning and start Hairston and Hancock with Tre as the full time dimeback (and primary backup) and leave those guys in those positions for 100% of the game. Cam Lewis is the primary backup at both nickel/dime with Poyer backing up both safety positions.

Do it right now and let these guys get an opportunity to learn and get better together and maybe by December you've got a unit that is starting to gel and getting better every week right at the time you need them to be doing that. I appreciate working Hairston and Hancock in slowly as green rookies, but it's November and the time for that is done with. It's hurting this team right now, and is going to for several weeks, but if you make an immediate commitment to your final configuration with no more dithering they can shorten the pain of that transition and still have a potentially good unit when we're really going to need it.

[Tulsabillsfanz]

Good analysis of the defensive backfield.   For me, one big reason we give up too many 3rd & longs is because we don’t blitz enough on 3rd & long…..or 4th & long.
 

  I was thrilled we sent 5 on the last play of the game. It forced Mahomes to throw off his back foot while backpedaling.  Even though the play started at the Bills 40, Mahomes couldn’t even get his throw to the end zone! 

[Don Otreply]

Be that as it may, this issue has been present for multiple seasons, despite this,  the guys did pretty darn good under the circumstances today, gotta give them a pat on the back, and a cold beer, or two,

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Simon]

4 minutes ago, Tulsabillsfanz said:

For me, one big reason we give up too many 3rd & longs is because we don’t blitz enough on 3rd & long…..or 4th & long.

 

I agree that they were too passive on a couple of those 3rd downs. I even wonder if that patchwork secondary had anything to do with their reluctance to expose it with blitzes in key situations.

I also wonder if they felt like they were getting to Mahomes enough with 4 today that they were loathe to overdo it. Kermit took a worse beating today than I've seen him take in a long time.

[Not at the table Karlos]

They’ve had this problem with experienced secondaries as well. 

[HappyDays]

Bernard unfortunately was the culprit on at least a couple of those 3rd and longs today. Regardless of his contract and the C on his jersey, they need Thompson to be the full time starter when he's healthy. Awkward situation but you have to play the better performing player.

 

I agree they need to put Hairston out there full time. He hasn't had to cover any big time pass catchers yet (unless I missed him covering Rice tonight) but he's been erasing his matchup players. You can tell he's confident and full of energy.

 

Hancock I think I am okay rotating for now. He looks a bit lost and slow to react at times. Safety as we have seen is not an easy position to learn in this defense.

 

I wonder if Cam might just be better than Taron at this point... The Carolina tape was brutally bad for him. Maybe give him another week to "recover" and see how it goes.

[Best Williams Available]

The formula is rush and get pressure with 4 and sit back to shut the intermediate and deep passing game down.  It worked beautifully tonight and there is no need to blitz consistently (I will guess that Pat’s stats vs blitz were very good compared to non blitz today). I agree wholeheartedly with your trial by fire approach for the rooks. Put your confidence behind the GMs picks and your ability to coach the secondary McD. You inherited the talent of Poyer/Hyde and here is the opportunity to home grow the next great secondary.

[Simon]

2 minutes ago, Not at the table Karlos said:

They’ve had this problem with experienced secondaries as well. 

 

Not like this they haven't.

They're generally ranked NFL middle of the pack on 3rd downs and they weren't as bad as a couple plays made them look tonight, but those handful of plays were a horror show we rarely see and are the kind of game-changers that will cost you wins eventually.

Every secondary gets worked sometimes but tonight was beyond the pale at times, imo.

[Ralonzo]

14 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

I agree that they were too passive on a couple of those 3rd downs. I even wonder if that patchwork secondary had anything to do with their reluctance to expose it with blitzes in key situations.

I also wonder if they felt like they were getting to Mahomes enough with 4 today that they were loathe to overdo it. Kermit took a worse beating today than I've seen him take in a long time.

[Big Turk]

It sucked but they also held the Chiefs to 3/13 overall on 3rd down which is tremendous.

[Simon]

2 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

It sucked but they also held the Chiefs to 3/13 overall on 3rd down which is tremendous.

 

They also converted multiple 2nd/long and 4th downs they had no business taking that easily.

[Einstein]

39 minutes ago, Simon said:

and before our WGR-quality whiners chime in, it's not anybody's fault.

 

hey now!

[TFBillsfan]

It didn’t help that the defensive calls weren’t coming in on time. That’s been a common theme all year. The timeout on the FG was because we had to many players on the field. That’s on the coaching staff.
 

And while I agree in principle, this has been a reoccurring theme with McDermott’s D. Let us not forget 4th and 19 against the Texans in the playoffs, 13 secs or even against the loss to the Russell Wilson lead Broncos. If the Bills would of somehow lost this game, I’m not sure McDermott would survive with the fans and locker room.

 

In the end, they got the W!

[JohnNord]

45 minutes ago, Simon said:

There's a complete lack of cohesion in the secondary right now, and before our WGR-quality whiners chime in, it's not anybody's fault.

They are trying to work 4 new guys (two of them rookies) into 2 spots all at the same time as a result of injuries. They are playing most of their snaps every game with a crew of DBs who are in places they're not used to and have had no chance to consistently play with each other at any time this year. Toss in losing Taron and now both their nickel and dime are being manned by yet two more new guys in roles they're not accustomed to and their lack of familiarity with their roles and each other which ratchets up that lack of cohesion by yet another order of magnitude.

Their communication is not there, their pass-offs are balky, they're ending up in the wrong part of their zones because of it and it's inevitably going to be a messy, messy mess in the short term, particularly with a DC who has already been struggling for the whole year to have them on the same page.

I think they can ameliorate it by just making 3 permanent switches right now and stop trying to pull off the juggling act while you acclimate new guys in. Just tear off the bandaid tomorrow morning and start Hairston and Hancock with Tre as the full time dimeback (and primary backup) and leave those guys in those positions for 100% of the game. Cam Lewis is the primary backup at both nickel/dime with Poyer backing up both safety positions.

Do it right now and let these guys get an opportunity to learn and get better together and maybe by December you've got a unit that is starting to gel and getting better every week right at the time you need them to be doing that. I appreciate working Hairston and Hancock in slowly as green rookies, but it's November and the time for that is done with. It's hurting this team right now, and is going to for several weeks, but if you make an immediate commitment to your final configuration with no more dithering they can shorten the pain of that transition and still have a potentially good unit when we're really going to need it.

 

This makes a lot of sense.  We can already see how Bishop is starting to improve a bit from getting regular snaps. 

[Chicharito]

KC ran the same formation on every 3rd or 4th and long. All season we set up in a cover 2 and get burned. Game after game. Greg Olsen even called us out on it last week when Carolina was having 3rd and longs as well.

[KOKBILLS]

42 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

Bernard unfortunately was the culprit on at least a couple of those 3rd and longs today. Regardless of his contract and the C on his jersey, they need Thompson to be the full time starter when he's healthy. Awkward situation but you have to play the better performing player.

 

I agree they need to put Hairston out there full time. He hasn't had to cover any big time pass catchers yet (unless I missed him covering Rice tonight) but he's been erasing his matchup players. You can tell he's confident and full of energy.

 

Hancock I think I am okay rotating for now. He looks a bit lost and slow to react at times. Safety as we have seen is not an easy position to learn in this defense.

 

I wonder if Cam might just be better than Taron at this point... The Carolina tape was brutally bad for him. Maybe give him another week to "recover" and see how it goes.

 

Ya... If Bernard has that zone feel he's pretty much known for that play never happens... 

[CincyBillsFan]

What's kind of amazing considering how bleak things looked a few weeks ago in the secondary is that the raw material is there for a very good, maybe even an elite secondary.

 

 

Edited 7 hours ago by CincyBillsFan

[DJB]

It’s because we play soft zone and guys have huge spaces to run free because we are trying to cover so much of the field

 

Zone D sucks on 3rd and long 

[MasterStrategist]

41 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

Not like this they haven't.

They're generally ranked NFL middle of the pack on 3rd downs and they weren't as bad as a couple plays made them look tonight, but those handful of plays were a horror show we rarely see and are the kind of game-changers that will cost you wins eventually.

Every secondary gets worked sometimes but tonight was beyond the pale at times, imo.

You picked the game they held a future 1st ballot HOF to <50% competition rate to call out the secondary?

 

 

[BillsFan130]

1 minute ago, DJB said:

It’s because we play soft zone and guys have huge spaces to run free because we are trying to cover so much of the field

 

Zone D sucks on 3rd and long 

Ya I've never understood that.

If I am a DC on 3rd and long, I'm trying to press the receivers to disrupt the timing with two safeties over the top.