A Few Thoughts about the Panthers Game - Community Edition

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

I wanna add that Reggie Gilliam was the lead blocker and sprang Cook loose on both of his long TDs. I rewatched the game and he was responsible for a lot of good blocking, but these 2 plays stood out the most. Gilliam is the secret weapon to the running game. 

Edited 21 hours ago by ChronicAndKnuckles

[CNYfan]

Just arrived back from Charlotte. 

Had 9th row tix at the 40, behind Bills bench.

A few of my thoughts:

   Poyer and Thompson are important stabilizing factors for the D.

   96 Walker is doing a lot of very good work out there.

    Hairston made some plays but was being effectively blocked by a WR on runs in his direction. 

     Josh Allen was bad the first half but Andy was worse.

              The second they faked that toss pitch and Josh got hit like running back after  5 yard gain.   After that hit he was much better.

     I felt the Bills were well coached.  There was a good plan, the 4-3, 4 -2-5, substitutions were good and the power running game was nice.

Edited 20 hours ago by CNYfan

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

7 hours ago, Virgil said:

4 - Offensive line - While we still can't seem to pick up a stunt (which is going to be really bad again the Chiefs next week), the line and Hawes were absolutely dominant in rush protection.  The fact that Cook's 64 yard run was up the middle and he got within 5 yards of almost every defender, and STILL was not even touched....wow.  Just wow.

 

7 - Hairston - I don't think I realized how much I needed to see Hairston make that tackle on the swing pass until it happened.  That was an absolute hit for a guy that had questions about his size and tackling ability.  He didn't just tackle the guy, he came in at him like missile.  If that's a sign of things to come, our secondary just go a whole lot better. 

 

8 - Bishop and Hancock? - Am I crazy or is that the best duo unit we've seen at safety so far this season?  I'm not dumping on Poyer, but Hancock flashed some speed out there.  Catching Dowdle from twenty yards away to save a touchdown is no easy feat.  Maybe it was the pressure up front too, but the safety play seemed to be more relaxed and confident out there.

 

 

4  It seems like they are just constantly collectively blocking in the wrong direction.  Is there some tell the line is giving and teams have picked up on it a just go the opposite direction untouched??

 

7  White has been an issue, but even prior to this week, with Hairston coming back , CB was set for this season.

 

9  Think we'll see Poyer on what are likely running plays and Hancock against the pass.  For everyone who was dumping on Rapp, his problem all along could have been the knee which from what was stated an issue since late in training camp. It's hard to keep up with WR with 2 good knees, no less on one.

[Ralonzo]

8 hours ago, Virgil said:

The Chiefs in the regular season appear to be Josh's 7 iron.

 

Someone caught the Roy McAvoy reference

Edited 18 hours ago by Ralonzo

[CincyBillsFan]

8 hours ago, Virgil said:

 

2 - Passing Game - At this point, I don't know if I should be calling out Brady or Allen.  I've never seen Allen play this poorly for so many games since his rookie season.  I'm not an All-22 film study person, but I wish I was right now.  Josh didn't complete a pass beyond the line of scrimmage in the first quarter and his accuracy was off.  Not only that, but you could see it on his face that he's just not mentally there right now.  Is it because guys aren't getting open?  Is it because we are only calling conservative plays that keep the defense off the field?  Or is it a little bit of both?  Either way, the passing game we've almost taken for granted over the past few years is really struggling and we aren't going anywhere until we figure it out.

 

Watching tonight's game provides all the answers to your questions:

 

*  I've seen wide open receivers for both teams multiple times tonight.  I saw 1 wide open Bill downfield the last 2 Bills games.

 

*  Tonight 2 Commander WR's made toe tapping catches within inches of the sideline.  An expected catch by an NFL WR.  The last 2 games I've seen 3 different Bills WR's unable to keep their feet in bounds on virtually the same passes.  All 3 would have converted 3rd downs and extended drives.

 

As others have pointed out in the absence of Palmer, Brady & Allen do not trust the WR's to make plays downfield.  BTW, against the Falcons, Allen hit Palmer for downfield completions of 18 & 52 yards on their first 2 possessions before Palmer left with an injury.

 

 

 

 

[ganesh]

17 hours ago, Virgil said:

Full Disclaimer:  My daughter's soccer coach decided to be a full blown ####### and schedule a soccer game for 2p yesterday, so I had to watch the entire game from my phone.  I saw the entire game, but it wasn't the normal experience and I didn't have audio at times, so please give me a little grace here.

 

1 - Attitude - Outside of our passing game, the attitude of this team so far this season has been my biggest concern.  We've started games slow, looked lethargic, and Josh has not looked like himself at all.  I'm happy to say that at least one of these issues was addressed in this game.  On the Bills first defensive series, McD looked like he was ready to fight someone on the sidelines and you could see that manifest in the defense.  The defense set the tone early with Groot's strip fumble and were relentless all game.  Attitude and coming off the bye week may have been part of it, while so many new players taking the field may have been the other part.  Either way, McD's arrow is point up after this game as you can tell he had the defense ready to play. 

 

2 - Passing Game - At this point, I don't know if I should be calling out Brady or Allen.  I've never seen Allen play this poorly for so many games since his rookie season.  I'm not an All-22 film study person, but I wish I was right now.  Josh didn't complete a pass beyond the line of scrimmage in the first quarter and his accuracy was off.  Not only that, but you could see it on his face that he's just not mentally there right now.  Is it because guys aren't getting open?  Is it because we are only calling conservative plays that keep the defense off the field?  Or is it a little bit of both?  Either way, the passing game we've almost taken for granted over the past few years is really struggling and we aren't going anywhere until we figure it out.

 

3 - Cook - I mean, what more can you say about him at this point?  I'd argue Cook is owed the second biggest apology on this board about his contract since we drafted the wrong Josh.  Not only did he break 200 yards, he looked like a pro playing against high school players.   He literally pulled a Techno Bowl move on his 64 yard touchdown pass by taking the longest possible route to the endzone, looked back for followers, and flipped in just for fun.  Seriously, that might be the most dominant rushing effort I can remember seeing from start to finish by a player in a Bills uniform.

 

4 - Offensive line - While we still can't seem to pick up a stunt (which is going to be really bad again the Chiefs next week), the line and Hawes were absolutely dominant in rush protection.  The fact that Cook's 64 yard run was up the middle and he got within 5 yards of almost every defender, and STILL was not even touched....wow.  Just wow.

 

5 - Shakir - Was that touchdown catch and run the fastest we've ever seen him run?  Like Cook's TD, Shakir was toying with his defender and found an extra gear.  We still need to get Kincaid healthy, but it does feel like Shakir and Kincaid are very close to completing our puzzle in the passing attack.  Get us a border receiver and start making some throws to Cook, and I will feel a lot better. 

 

6 - Oliver - I was frustrated with Oliver's injury for about two seconds, before laughing it off.  I mean seriously, do he just skip arms and torso day in the weight room on this team?  How many bicep and pec issues can we have?  At the point, I just can't expect some of these guys to stay healthy.  But unlike other weeks where the injuries piled on, it was amazing to see so many other players step up and watch the defense get arguably more dominant as the game went on.

 

7 - Hairston - I don't think I realized how much I needed to see Hairston make that tackle on the swing pass until it happened.  That was an absolute hit for a guy that had questions about his size and tackling ability.  He didn't just tackle the guy, he came in at him like missile.  If that's a sign of things to come, our secondary just go a whole lot better. 

 

8 - Bishop and Hancock? - Am I crazy or is that the best duo unit we've seen at safety so far this season?  I'm not dumping on Poyer, but Hancock flashed some speed out there.  Catching Dowdle from twenty yards away to save a touchdown is no easy feat.  Maybe it was the pressure up front too, but the safety play seemed to be more relaxed and confident out there.

 

9 - Linebackers - Anyone else pleasantly surprised that we held the Panthers rushing attack in check with Thompson, Buffalo Joe, and Williams?  For what could have been a huge liability, those guys held their own.  

 

10 - Defensive Line - Yes, it was Dalton back there and I don't want to get ahead of ourselves. But man, this is what we've been waiting for with our pass rush.  They were absolute disruptors out there and made life easier for everyone else on defense.  To me, this wasn't scheme either.  This was straight up bulldozing guys into Dalton.  Hoecht was a man possessed, Walker continues to be a rock star, AJ decided to play for once in a great way, and Ogunjobi joined the party.  Hell, Bosa snuck in two sacks on the day.  I'm not going to put a lot of stock into next weeks game against the Chiefs, but I'm very curious to see what these guys do next week.

 

 

As for the Chiefs, there is one thing I am hoping to see, and that is Josh waking up from his coma.  The Chiefs in the regular season appear to be Josh's 7 iron.  They find a way to bring out the best in him.  Win or lose, if Josh can get back on track and the defense continues with this momentum, maybe things won't be as bad as they've felt.

 

Go Bills!

A few other observations

* Shaq Thompson had a great came and he played all the 54 snaps.

* Bishop over pursued on that run that Hancock had bring down the runner.  Otherwise, that would have been a tackle at the LoS

* It is still a mystery why Brady is not using Cook or Ty Johnson (arguably the best 3rd down back in the league) in the passing game; especially when he had success with Ray Davis against Atlanta. 

* The IOL is a mess when it comes to pass protection.  Unless that is fixed, I doubt Allen gets a clean pocket to stay and not run for his life. 

* 

12 hours ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

I wanna add that Reggie Gilliam was the lead blocker and sprang Cook loose on both of his long TDs. I rewatched the game and he was responsible for a lot of good blocking, but these 2 plays stood out the most. Gilliam is the secret weapon to the running game. 

McDermott also praised him in the post-game locker room speech

[Sweats]

15 hours ago, Roundybout said:

Coleman: I’m truly baffled by how such a big guy never comes back for the ball. On one of the plays where Josh threw a near-interception, Coleman went out for a shallow curl route. He stood there waiting for the ball which let the Carolina DB make a break on it. He needs to move towards the ball and box people out. 

 

 

 

 

Agreed, however, that's not the style he played at FSU........there are a lot of aspects to his play that needs to be taught to him for the NFL style. His college style was to bullrush CB's/DB's and make a break on the 50/50 balls. He needs to be more of a complete all-around WR to have success in the NFL and that is certainly an aspect that he needs to learn.

[ganesh]

why is no one complaining about the WR coach.  I don't even know (off the top of my head) our WR coach and what is his credibility

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

1 hour ago, ganesh said:

A few other observations

* Shaq Thompson had a great came and he played all the 54 snaps.

* Bishop over pursued on that run that Hancock had bring down the runner.  Otherwise, that would have been a tackle at the LoS

* It is still a mystery why Brady is not using Cook or Ty Johnson (arguably the best 3rd down back in the league) in the passing game; especially when he had success with Ray Davis against Atlanta. 

* The IOL is a mess when it comes to pass protection.  Unless that is fixed, I doubt Allen gets a clean pocket to stay and not run for his life. 

* 

McDermott also praised him in the post-game locker room speech

Was a phenomenal game for him and shows exactly why he has a roster spot year in & out. Just an integral part of this team that a lot of casual fans think is dispensable, but is the core glue for this offense. A homegrown player that I think deserves more love. 

[davefan66]

Defense looked better for sure.  Hoecht was awesome. Played the Von roll but had great vision and most importantly, great burst.  Looking forward to what Hairston can do for us.  I do have to ask about this game though.  What would have happened if they fed Dowdle the ball more?  Love Chubba, but Dowdle was doing better and may have gashed us if given the ball more.

 

Josh. I have no clue what’s wrong. Maybe it’s the pressure of being the guy who we depend on the most for so long? He’s been indecisive and has been caught because of it. A 10th of a second delay and he will get caught.  Needs to make the decision before he needs to make the decision.  Not sure if they coached the “Josh” out of Josh, but if they did they need to let him play like he wants. 
 

This Josh isn’t playing like he should. Just let him do what he wants and I’m sure he will be better.

[BearNorth]

10 minutes ago, ganesh said:

why is no one complaining about the WR coach.  I don't even know (off the top of my head) our WR coach and what is his credibility

Our WR coach is Adam Henry [Ed.D] 53 yrs old. went to McNeese State. Practice squad player with the Saints in the 90's. Has been the WR coach for 49ers, Browns, Cowboys, Bills.  Has coached the likes of Anquan Boldin, Amari Cooper, Odell Beckham Jr, Jarvis Landry, & CeeDee Lamb.

 

Described as a human encyclopedia of WR play.

[colin]

our passing o sucks right now.  talent and scheme and blocking and josh is just all off.  we are great when we go heavy jumbo and under center (when we mix it up so it's not all runs).  like most green light qb's josh is less comfortable under center, but he's better under center (his stats show it, he just is comfortable being insane and running around and gunning).  if we just pass more out of under C and jumbo to tight ends and backs our passing stats will jump like crazy.  josh had goofy feet and two or three bad passes, but he tattooed two wrs (18 and 10) on the right sidelines for solid gainers and both guys couldn't just play wr and keep their feet down.  if those two were caught his stats woulda looked better and we'd have had more downs to work with, leading to likely more passing production.  we had the ball up 3-0 early at first and goal from the 9, but samuel lining up wrong (on a sneak, what was he doing?) and then wr's not getting open at all as josh bot a boatload of time lead to a big sack and fg instead of a td.  shakir had two or three good catches including one absolute perfect run for nearly 60 and a tub, but aside from that the contribution of our WRs was like bottom of the nfl level.  the run game is the best in the nfl, literally baltimore of 2024 levels.

 

on d ed getting gimped sucks, but in that game we were out our starting S (rapp), both starting LBs, both starting DTs, and a meaningfully contributing rookie at outside corner (strong) and DT (sanders).  so 5 starters all in the middle of the d and a top 4 outside corner and a 2nd round DT.  we added in our 1st round corner, and our two FA roid signings.  the players we replaced our SS, corner, and seemingly both LBs are simply better players at this point than our starters.  i still have concerns about the D, but if we get dq and sanders back, a front 4 rotation of obiwan, dq, sanders, walker, and like jordan p at dt and de's of bosa, groot, aj, hoyt, whoever is a legit top flight unit.  mcd should share defensive play calling with badbabi the same way J Lo shares the spotlight with her back up dancers.  the juice from harrison, our lbs, hancock and even bishop was en fuego.

[Rochesterfan]

20 hours ago, Virgil said:

 

 

1 - Attitude - Outside of our passing game, the attitude of this team so far this season has been my biggest concern.  We've started games slow, looked lethargic, and Josh has not looked like himself at all.  I'm happy to say that at least one of these issues was addressed in this game.  On the Bills first defensive series, McD looked like he was ready to fight someone on the sidelines and you could see that manifest in the defense.  The defense set the tone early with Groot's strip fumble and were relentless all game.  Attitude and coming off the bye week may have been part of it, while so many new players taking the field may have been the other part.  Either way, McD's arrow is point up after this game as you can tell he had the defense ready to play. 

 

 

 

I am going to start with #1 and just say - I am not sure I agree at all with what you are saying.

 

The Bills have won the toss and deferred several times - their open drives - many times their only full drive in the 1st quarter have resulted in 5 TDs, 1Fg, and 1 fumble on a series they were driving.  A very strong start on offense.

 

On defense in the 1st quarter the opponents have typically had 2 drives and the results have been: 3TDs and a FG, and 4 forced punts, and 3 forced fumbles.  The Bills also forced a fumble against Atlanta that was overturned due to penalty and lead to 1 of the TDs.

 

To me going through the drives and the games - early isn’t the issue - it is when they try to run plays off their initial play calls and their defense settles in that they struggle more.  There are games like NO they never got settled or NE where the offense had things in hand and started the turn over parade, but for the most part they come out and get a lead.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

14 hours ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Watching tonight's game provides all the answers to your questions:

 

*  I've seen wide open receivers for both teams multiple times tonight.  I saw 1 wide open Bill downfield the last 2 Bills games.

 

*  Tonight 2 Commander WR's made toe tapping catches within inches of the sideline.  An expected catch by an NFL WR.  The last 2 games I've seen 3 different Bills WR's unable to keep their feet in bounds on virtually the same passes.  All 3 would have converted 3rd downs and extended drives.

 

As others have pointed out in the absence of Palmer, Brady & Allen do not trust the WR's to make plays downfield.  BTW, against the Falcons, Allen hit Palmer for downfield completions of 18 & 52 yards on their first 2 possessions before Palmer left with an injury.

 

 

 

 

 

I've noticed we use our motion very conservatively as a man coverage "tell".  I think teams are using this to their advantage.  Other teams use motion in conjunction with their passing attack, and that is often where the confusion and mistakes happen that lead to wide open guys.  

[bigK14094]

21 hours ago, Roundybout said:

Coleman: I’m truly baffled by how such a big guy never comes back for the ball. On one of the plays where Josh threw a near-interception, Coleman went out for a shallow curl route. He stood there waiting for the ball which let the Carolina DB make a break on it. He needs to move towards the ball and box people out. 

Yeh, coming back to the ball is both football and basketball sound.  since Coleman has background in bb too, it is surprising he is not  coached up this point.  Your comment to dead on.

[Virgil]

24 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

I've noticed we use our motion very conservatively as a man coverage "tell".  I think teams are using this to their advantage.  Other teams use motion in conjunction with their passing attack, and that is often where the confusion and mistakes happen that lead to wide open guys.  

 

I've thought the same thing.  We don't seem to use motion to setup plays outside of a wide receiver screen.  This is something the Dolphins and Chiefs do well, that I wish we would mimic to help Coleman or others.  

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

4 minutes ago, Virgil said:

 

I've thought the same thing.  We don't seem to use motion to setup plays outside of a wide receiver screen.  This is something the Dolphins and Chiefs do well, that I wish we would mimic to help Coleman or others.  

 

Yeah, saw a miscue by washington and you get a wide open worthy.  

[TheyCallMeAndy]

2 - From what I understand, guys are getting open, but not consistently. Trust issue Josh and scheme issues?

6 - IIRC, Oliver was being blocked in the back while he one arm grabbed the opponent who moved the opposite direction. The added force from the block on Olivers direction lead to the injury. I may be wrong, though. 
 

7+8 - Absolutely, their PT should increase. I thought Poyer looked good vs the run, though. 
 

9 - Buffalo Joe is a bit of a liability IMO, but I'd love to see Bernard get some looks in Milano's role and leave Shaq at true Mike. 
 

10 - I think McD calling the plays should get credit for the productive day as well. He's a great playcaller.