Ben Johnson?? Ben Johnson?? LOL

[Coach Tuesday]

5 minutes ago, corta765 said:

Jared Goff has proven without good coaching and a solid cast of playmakers he cannot do it on his own which I think is why he always has an asterisk with how good he truly is or isn't given the truly best QBs can make it work in any circumstance. I will give him credit he has improved substantially from LA which I get why McVay traded him and with good coaching/playmakers he is a legit top QB. But like you said the moment he has pressure he is toast and that has forever been his Achilles heal. Also while I am admittedly not a Goff fan I do agree the narratives spun at the trade were also a bit overboard that he was trash etc.. He has proven given him a line with decent weapons and he can do a lot of things. The narrative on QBs these days is nuts and the patience is so thin. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Tua in a new spot with a decent line and coach got it going similar to 22/23, his issue and forever his issue is health.

 

The issue with Goff has always been if the play breaks down he's toast - lacks the talent to improvise or overcome a bad play call or missed blocking assignment.  That's not really a fair criticism - the same "criticism" can be lodged against many QBs, maybe less so in today's game where mobile passers are more prevalent.  Tua is a really good comparison.   Drew Brees - if he didn't have a clean inner pocket he struggled.  Kirk Cousins isn't improvising.  Lots of QBs need protection and good playcalling in order to perform at a high level.  Josh is not one of those QBs. 

[GunnerBill]

51 minutes ago, corta765 said:

Jared Goff has proven without good coaching and a solid cast of playmakers he cannot do it on his own which I think is why he always has an asterisk with how good he truly is or isn't given the truly best QBs can make it work in any circumstance. I will give him credit he has improved substantially from LA which I get why McVay traded him and with good coaching/playmakers he is a legit top QB. But like you said the moment he has pressure he is toast and that has forever been his Achilles heal. Also while I am admittedly not a Goff fan I do agree the narratives spun at the trade were also a bit overboard that he was trash etc.. He has proven given him a line with decent weapons and he can do a lot of things. The narrative on QBs these days is nuts and the patience is so thin. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Tua in a new spot with a decent line and coach got it going similar to 22/23, his issue and forever his issue is health.

 

I don't even think he particularly needs weapons. He needs protection. That's absolutely your A1 priority if your QB is Jared Goff. Spend your dollars up front. He got a combined 1,000 yards from Josh Reynolds and Kalif Raymond two years ago. Goff is a good Quarterback. He is just way below average in terms of mobility at the position for the modern day. 

[corta765]

47 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

The issue with Goff has always been if the play breaks down he's toast - lacks the talent to improvise or overcome a bad play call or missed blocking assignment.  That's not really a fair criticism - the same "criticism" can be lodged against many QBs, maybe less so in today's game where mobile passers are more prevalent.  Tua is a really good comparison.   Drew Brees - if he didn't have a clean inner pocket he struggled.  Kirk Cousins isn't improvising.  Lots of QBs need protection and good playcalling in order to perform at a high level.  Josh is not one of those QBs. 

I would add to this that the NFL has went from having maybe one true freak talented QB a decade who could just do things that weren't able to be duplicated (Elway, Young, Vick, Rodgers) to all the sudden three truly dominant ones in Josh, Lamar, & Mahomes where they do things that should be impossible and even the next crop under that with Daniels, Love, Hurts etc.. are guys that can not only pass but move pretty well. Pocket passers still can dominate as Burrow/Stafford have shown and Goff is certainly in that group too, but when you see a lot of these guys with this wild mobility it has changed the expectations I think people have for many passers.

[Royale with Cheese]

10 hours ago, Jauronimo said:

Ty Dunne so take with as much salt as you see fit, but sounds like Caleb doesn't want to be coached.

 

https://www.golongtd.com/p/house-of-dysfunction-part-i-the-curious

 

This article has legs!

[Royale with Cheese]

11 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

My unpopular opinion is that QBs make themselves. The coaching doesn't matter nearly as much to that outcome as people think. I'm not saying coaching doesn't affect how well the offense as a whole functions, just that great QBs will be great no matter what coach they get tethered to and ditto for bad QBs. Daboll was dubbed a QB whisperer because Allen became elite under his watch. Turns out he's closer to the guy that had 30th ranked offenses for the vast majority of his pre-Allen career.

 

Nobody should have expected Ben Johnson to show up and "fix" Caleb Williams. I'm sure some Bears fans are disappointed but that's only because they had an unrealistic expectation. I continue to believe they will move on from Caleb Williams next year unless he shows massive improvement over the course of the season. Johnson isn't going to risk his first head coaching shot on an underperforming QB that he isn't tied to. He'll get his handpicked QB next year and then we'll begin to really see if he can live up to the hype.

 

I don't think it's an unpopular opinion, I think most agree with you.  

 

It's just certain group of fans, fall in love with a player and that player can do no wrong.  If that player doesn't succeed, its not his fault so coaching becomes the scapegoat....you always need a scapegoat.

 

It's masculine pride.  It's "I know what I'm looking at better than you know what you're looking at."

It's the reason regular Joes think they can beat up a professional fighter.  It's ego.

[Mikie2times]

8 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

It's because where you land extremely matters 

 

To think it doesn't is fool's gold... These are 21 to 23-year-old kids... And 97% of them need to grow and learn

 

There's a reason why the bears haven't successfully developed a quarterback in 60 years lol never had a 4,000 yard thrower 

 

It is the organization

 

Same with darnold... Nobody question his talent or even his work ethic.. the Jets organization spits out quarterbacks for 50 years

We have debated this before, but as happy calls out, I think the great ones will be great anywhere. Perhaps coaching and circumstance allow that to come together sooner. But these guys we are seeing boomerang are not the very best. They will ultimately prove to be starting caliber and sometimes really good QB's. Take Allen for example. He started his rookie year as all these guys did and did so for a perennial loser. His QB whisperer was a guy in New York who couldn't make Daniel Jones work and now it appears like Jones could be the next Boomerang QB. I'm sure Dabs helped Josh, but I'm more sure Josh helped himself with Jordan Palmer and the rebuild of his mechanics. You have called out how much McD is responsible for Allen. Allen was inevitable and that was because of who he is. Not anybody else.

 

I think the culture, team, and system matter more when the guy isn't at that level. Mentally or physically. They can't overcome a bad org and bad coaching. But I don't believe the elite ones would just all of sudden not be that way in other circumstances. Perhaps the progression would be impacted, but these guys just have drive, talent, and intelligence that is at another level compared to others. 

[Wayne Cubed]

I thinks it's somewhere around 80/20 or 70/30 the player, then the coaching. Tom Brady was on a podcast recently and talked about this. Mostly because they were talking about Caleb but he was talking about coaching and how much it helped him. He was saying to think of it like this, we rank players on teams but do we ranking OCs or DCs on teams? Or QB coaches? Do we think the 32nd best QB coach is as good as the first? No, probably not. So, I think he believes it has some affect on your development.

 

He then gave a good example of his career. During his rookie year, the Pats QB coach passed away, so Billy B took the job over in the interim. He said he would come into the QB room, show them next weeks opponent. Tell them about what they do in Cover 3 or how they play man or this is what they do in this situation, etc. So Brady was getting a lot of deep insight into the defensive side of the ball. He said it helped his growth, a lot.

 

Now, saying all that Brady still had the desire to get better. To prove people/teams/scouts wrong. He was open to learning and engaging with the coaches. He had the desire to get better and sought it out. If a player doesn't pay attention or doesn't practice or doesn't want or feel the need to learn more. No amount of coaching is going to make them any better.

[DrDawkinstein]

3 minutes ago, Wayne Cubed said:

I thinks it's somewhere around 80/20 or 70/30 the player, then the coaching. Tom Brady was on a podcast recently and talked about this. Mostly because they were talking about Caleb but he was talking about coaching and how much it helped him. He was saying to think of it like this, we rank players on teams but do we ranking OCs or DCs on teams? Or QB coaches? Do we think the 32nd best QB coach is as good as the first? No, probably not. So, I think he believes it has some affect on your development.

 

He then gave a good example of his career. During his rookie year, the Pats QB coach passed away, so Billy B took the job over in the interim. He said he would come into the QB room, show them next weeks opponent. Tell them about what they do in Cover 3 or how they play man or this is what they do in this situation, etc. So Brady was getting a lot of deep insight into the defensive side of the ball. He said it helped his growth, a lot.

 

Now, saying all that Brady still had the desire to get better. To prove people/teams/scouts wrong. He was open to learning and engaging with the coaches. He had the desire to get better and sought it out. If a player doesn't pay attention or doesn't practice or doesn't want or feel the need to learn more. No amount of coaching is going to make them any better.

 

Yep, I posted this in the Tyler Dunne/Caleb thread. Waldron refusing to coach the kid last year really sandbagged him. Great clip by Brady.

 

On 9/12/2025 at 3:25 PM, DrDawkinstein said:

As much as I hated (maybe still do) the guy, I can't argue that he and Belichick made quite a historic duo.

 

So here is 6minutes of Tom Brady talking about QB Development. (Great Bill Parcells quote in there are the end too!)

 

Contrast what he talks about with Waldron refusing to watch tape with a rookie Caleb Williams...

 

 

 

[Low Positive]

This, more than anything, tells you what Lions players think of Ben Johnson

 

[Mr. WEO]

3 hours ago, FireChans said:

Remember when Goff was considered a negative asset in the trade for Matt Stafford. 
 

I like Jared, but he is who he is.

 

Who he is is this:

 

Goff with Rams (5 years):  42-27, 18171 yards, 107 TD, 55 INT, 63.4%, rating 91.5

 

Stafford with Rams (5 years): 36-23, 15243 yards, 98 TD, 45 INT, 65.9% rating 95.6

 

Goff with Detroit: (5 years): 40-26, 17446, 121 TDs, 40 INT, 68.3%, rating 101.2.

 

 

 

 

 

[Einstein]

On 9/15/2025 at 5:16 PM, BringBackFergy said:

Ask his disciples. 
He was working with the best Oline, premiere RB’s, two of the top 20 WR’s and Laporta. He would be able to save the Bills from the clutches of a coach who has made the playoffs 6 of last 7 years. 

I watched both Bears games, and aside from not telling his kicker to kick the ball out of bounds (which he should have done), the losses were certainly not on Ben Johnson.

1) Caleb Williams just isnt that good yet (if he ever will be).

2) The Bears roster is rough at several positions.

So you speaking of the nice situation he had in Detroit is ironic, because if we are having this conversation in the context of what he could have done in Buffalo, it would be wise to mention that he would have had an equally rich situation in Buffalo as he did in Detroit, thanks to Josh Allen (who is worth about 5x what Goff is) and James Cook.

That being said, I never wanted McDermott fired ,so its a moot point. But your argument doesnt hold water.

[BringBackFergy]

You guys have gone way too far into the weeds on this thread.

 

The purpose of the original post and follow up is to demonstrate Ben Johnson is NOT the answer to the Buffalo Bills / McDermott when you consider McDermott's record as head coach and players genuinely enjoy playing for him.

 

Vs. Those on this Board who were clamoring for BJ last season because he was a "genius". 31 other teams would be on the phone to hire McDermott immediately if he was let go.

[Einstein]

4 minutes ago, BringBackFergy said:

The purpose of the original post and follow up is to demonstrate Ben Johnson is NOT the answer to the Buffalo Bills

 

But you didn’t prove that. All you did is show that you are ridiculously impatient (taking a victory lap after 2 games), and are blaming Ben Johnson for a roster he didn’t build.

 

It feels even more knee-jerky than the McDermott haters posts.

[BillsShredder83]

12 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

My unpopular opinion is that QBs make themselves. The coaching doesn't matter nearly as much to that outcome as people think. I'm not saying coaching doesn't affect how well the offense as a whole functions, just that great QBs will be great no matter what coach they get tethered to and ditto for bad QBs. Daboll was dubbed a QB whisperer because Allen became elite under his watch. Turns out he's closer to the guy that had 30th ranked offenses for the vast majority of his pre-Allen career.

 

Nobody should have expected Ben Johnson to show up and "fix" Caleb Williams. I'm sure some Bears fans are disappointed but that's only because they had an unrealistic expectation. I continue to believe they will move on from Caleb Williams next year unless he shows massive improvement over the course of the season. Johnson isn't going to risk his first head coaching shot on an underperforming QB that he isn't tied to. He'll get his handpicked QB next year and then we'll begin to really see if he can live up to the hype.

While I think their can be exceptions, I think all evidence we've seen has been contradictory.

 

I think itd be foolish to assume that teams like Cleveland, NYJ, and Chicago have repeatedly "guessed wrong"... year after year. 

 

If you look at these teams individually it certainly looks like these teams are ruining prospects, that would've panned out elsewhere.

 

When you combine these teams and a few others, its pretty ubdeniable IMO, that from an odds perspective, theres no way these teams have had that many bites at the apple. Some years theyre accounting for the first 2, 3, or 4 qbs taken overall!

 

There was an article on this recently on how different teams have handled high drafted QB's, amd looking at the details, its pretty easy to see where a bunch of these QB Factory teams go wrong.

 

Might be unpopular, but i do NOT think Josh is anywhere what he is today if he landed in Cleveland or NYJ that year.... gun to my head answer? I think he fully busts out with how raw he was. We forget how much work, and support he received his first 3 years here, to refine that talent.

 

Do certain prospects have a higher chance at NOT busting? Sure they do, but a quick glance at these teams over the last 15 years, without a single one of their teams hitting on a QB prospect.... chances are even the best prospects would bust if taken by these teams! (IMO). 

 

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/6584516/2025/09/02/nfl-first-round-quarterback-busts/

[GunnerBill]

17 minutes ago, Einstein said:

I watched both Bears games, and aside from not telling his kicker to kick the ball out of bounds (which he should have done), the losses were certainly not on Ben Johnson.

1) Caleb Williams just isnt that good yet (if he ever will be).

2) The Bears roster is rough at several positions.

So you speaking of the nice situation he had in Detroit is ironic, because if we are having this conversation in the context of what he could have done in Buffalo, it would be wise to mention that he would have had an equally rich situation in Buffalo as he did in Detroit, thanks to Josh Allen (who is worth about 5x what Goff is) and James Cook.

That being said, I never wanted McDermott fired ,so its a moot point. But your argument doesnt hold water.

 

The thing that I think is on Ben Johnson is the mess on defense. Dennis Allen was his pick and one area they definitely do have talent in is the defensive backfield. Though you'd be forgiven for not thinking so at the moment. That DC hire for an offensive minded first time Head Coach is a really important one. And so far it looks questionable. 

 

But I agree I don't think the results per se are on him at this point. Caleb actually looks really good when is on script, but as soon as the script is done the skittishness and the lack of field vision seems to return. That suggests to me that the bits Johnson can give him as a paint by numbers are working. It's after that it is problematic. And then no doubt that roster still has some big holes and that is on Poles. I said all draft season that they might have upgraded the IOL but you can't keep trotting Braxton Jones out as your starting left tackle and telling me you are serious about winning. He is the worst regular vet starting LT in football. 

 

But the off-field questions are the more concerning piece. His media management has to get better or else he will dig his own grave very quickly and other have alluded to personality concerns in his man management of players. I haven't heard that myself but if it is true that is a concern too. 

 

17 minutes ago, BringBackFergy said:

31 other teams would be on the phone to hire McDermott immediately if he was let go.

 

Maybe not 31.... but probably 24 or 25 would. He would be the fastest re-hire since, ironically, his mentor Andy Reid was let go by the Eagles after the 2012 season and he basically too a flight straight to Kansas City and took the job. 

Edited September 17 by GunnerBill

[Coach Tuesday]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The thing that I think is on Ben Johnson is the mess on defense. Dennis Allen was his pick and one area they definitely do have talent in is the defensive backfield. Though you'd be forgiven for not thinking so at the moment. That DC hire for an offensive minded first time Head Coach is a really important one. And so far it looks questionable. 

 

But I agree I don't think the results per se are on him at this point. Caleb actually looks really good when is on script, but as soon as the script is done the skittishness and the lack of field vision seems to return. That suggests to me that the bits Johnson can give him as a paint by numbers are working. It's after that it is problematic. And then no doubt that roster still has some big holes and that is on Poles. I said all draft season that they might have upgraded the IOL but you can't keep trotting Braxton Jones out as your starting left tackle and telling me you are serious about winning. He is the worst regular vet starting LT in football. 

 

But the off-field questions are the more concerning piece. His media management has to get better or else he will dig his own grave very quickly and other have eluded to personality concerns in his man management of players. I haven't heard that myself but if it is true that is a concern too. 

His interviews are definitely red flags - he comes across as an Adam Gates type (without the weird googly eye thing).

[SirAndrew]

Jared Goff is a good QB, people need to deal with that fact. 

[BillsShredder83]

7 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

His interviews are definitely red flags - he comes across as an Adam Gates type (without the weird googly eye thing).

Interesting! Is their one that sticks out? Can't say ive seen it, I may have dismissed it myself a week ago... but seeing that Lions celebration, and post game handshake with Campbell was a major red flag.

 

The guy could've got another HC job a year early, and he stuck it out to try and wrap up 'unfinished business'. In the business that is the nfl, thats a move that should leave you beloved.

 

Wonder if players think he was to busy interviewing during post season, to help them try and reach a SB. That'd be my guess with the limited info we have.

[Mango]

31 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Who he is is this:

 

Goff with Rams (5 years):  42-27, 18171 yards, 107 TD, 55 INT, 63.4%, rating 91.5

 

Stafford with Rams (5 years): 36-23, 15243 yards, 98 TD, 45 INT, 65.9% rating 95.6

 

Goff with Detroit: (5 years): 40-26, 17446, 121 TDs, 40 INT, 68.3%, rating 101.2.

 

 

 

 

 

 

So they're basically all the same-ish.

 

Seems like a change of scenery was good for all parties.

[HappyDays]

27 minutes ago, BillsShredder83 said:

We forget how much work, and support he received his first 3 years here, to refine that talent.

 

I just couldn't disagree more with this. Daboll was a nobody that had spent his career as the OC for bottom ranked offenses. Allen's pass catchers were Kelvin Benjamin, Zay Jones, Andre Holmes, and Charles Clay. His starting OL was 2nd year Dion Dawkins, Vlad Ducasse, Russell Bodine, John Miller, and Jordan Mills. A lot of young QBs have a solid veteran in the room to help them learn - Allen had Nathan Peterman. We only retroactively say that the Bills set Allen up for success because he ended up a success. The reality is he had as bad a supporting cast as you could possibly formulate.

 

Allen has a lot of superpowers that make him an elite QB. One that probably doesn't get enough credit nationally is his ability to confront his flaws and fix them ridiculously fast. Allen has had plenty of bad games throughout his career but he has very very rarely had two in a row. He completely rebuilt his mechanics from the ground up and recently changed his entire play style to fit a new scheme and philosophy. I credit McDermott and Beane for turning the culture around here but I don't credit them for Allen's ascension. His own mental and physical abilities made him who he is today.