Cold Hard Truths The Season Has Given Us As Bills Fans

[corta765]

Just gonna shoot straight from the hip here and call it as I see it:

 

-The losses have all been soul crushing type. NYJ/NE/DEN were last second crap that makes you want to scream. I will always rather lose by a lot then a little because it is far more painful. CIN wasn't as close but the Kincaid fumble ruined any real shot and JAX was close for the most part until the D wilted at the end

 

-The Bills superbowl window with McD is over. The window with Allen 100% exists but there is only one path forward and the longer they take to make the wholesale change need at headcoach the less time they have with that window.

 

-The direction of the team needs to be offense first and defense be damned. It has been pointed out numerous times and properly that the force to make Josh dink and dunk and be safe is back firing worse then just letting him be and the offense attacking.

 

-The defense is fine and even injury wise held ok. But it is concerning that when the big moments come and they need a stop they keep faltering badly. I don't see that changing this season it is what it is. Long term I actually feel good about the defense when they are healthy for the future as outside of Von & the safeties they have good talent and are pretty young

 

-The biggest issue not being brought up that can really derail the offense further is Diggs. His age is real and his days are very numbered, after him Kincaid looks like a stud and Shakir isn't bad but they do not have much. They really need to add a rookie and even a guy like Mike Evans this offseason to shore that up. They can hire a new coach/oc etc.. but the offense needs more at the WR spot otherwise any return back to high play we liked will be capped.

 

-It is really frustrating as a fan that the regression is as real as it has been as a team and it feels we have fallen from being a Tier 1 team to middling at best. I cannot see any justification for keeping McD at this point. He did a great job stabilizing and building this team up, but his program is maxxed out and there is nowhere left to go with him.

[Dillenger4]

Josh is a turnover machine! Unfortunately, he is Jameis Winston part 2

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

If you change coaching staffs which I'm not disagreeing with, there also will likely need to be a bit of a mini rebuild too.  At that point, think you're better off going with youth as in rookie WR than a guy like Evans.  If you do decide to do the rebuild, then could be willing to take the hit and trade Diggs in the offseason. Long term that would be better, maybe even Miller.  The other option is wait another year, less of as hit but then Bills likely would get less in return for Diggs.  Let guys like Morse, Poyer, Hyde and some of the late signing fill in players like a Phillips go.   

[corta765]

1 minute ago, Dillenger4 said:

Josh is a turnover machine! Unfortunately, he is Jameis Winston part 2

 

When he is allowed to play the game in his best way like 20-22 he is incredibly dynamic and has led the NFL in total TDs. You can have some turnovers. As currently constructed with the offense and what they want is a problem and the turnovers become magnified

Just now, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

If you change coaching staffs which I'm not disagreeing with, there also will likely need to be a bit of a mini rebuild too.  At that point, think you're better off going with youth as in rookie WR than a guy like Evans.  If you do decide to do the rebuild, then could be willing to take the hit and trade Diggs in the offseason. Long term that would be better, maybe even Miller.  The other option is wait another year, less of as hit but then Bills likely would get less in return for Diggs.  Let guys like Morse, Poyer, Hyde and some of the late signing fill in players like a Phillips go.   

 

They 100% are retooling this offseason. They have 9 draft picks and can open upwards of 50 mil in space. This actually is the time to do a new program and refresh the vision and lineup.

 

Diggs cap hit is too much in 24, 25 though I think he is gone.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

3 minutes ago, Dillenger4 said:

Josh is a turnover machine! Unfortunately, he is Jameis Winston part 2

 

This year may serve to be a bit of a humbling experience for him which could help.  Something is wrong with him, easy thing is to blame the coaching, but who knows, could be more to it.  Maybe he's felt things are too easy.

[BillMafia716ix]

Cold hard truth I learned this season. Josh Allen is overrated. Yes, I said it!! Overrated!! He’s the reason the offense has been struggling and we all need to stop pretending that it’s not. When he’s on his A game. He looks like one of the best QB’s in the league. Problem is the constant mistakes he makes every game, prevents him from being that guy. 
 

The trust level I have in Josh Allen is all but gone. You simply can’t count on him to be consistent game in and game out and that really hurts to say. 

[Nuncha]

Ah yes.  Games without a punt seem so long ago now.

 

 

Edited November 14, 2023 by Nuncha

[goldenboy81]

When tyrod and that sorry team almost beat em,that's when I knew the bills are in trouble. 

[Jerome007]

16 minutes ago, corta765 said:

The biggest issue not being brought up that can really derail the offense further is Diggs. His age is real and his days are very numbered, after him Kincaid looks like a stud and Shakir isn't bad but they do not have much. They really need to add a rookie and even a guy like Mike Evans this offseason to shore that up. T

Oh sure. Diggs, who is still playing at the top level is "too old. At 29. But bring in 30 yo Evans as savior? WTH. Who has been the better receiver between the two these last 5 years?

[Not Applicable]

The only first-round offensive line draft picks we've had since like the Reagan administration are Ruben Brown, Mike Williams, and Eric Wood.

 

That’s why this team consistently sucks.

[MAJBobby]

I am not sure there is a window anymore with Allen. 
 

love all his talent and that is something to build around. 
 

however the Turnovers JUST NEVER SLOW DOWN. 
 

I mean a guy that is talked about as elite has never had a back to back game in the NFL without a turnover that is horrible. 

[crappyjazz]

After I heard McDermott's presser and his comment about having good practices, I am over thinking they just need to fire Dorsey. They need to clean house, top to bottom and yes, the dreaded word: rebuild.

 

Josh ain't getting any younger and needs an offensive-minded HC to get him back on track. Sorry Josh, but thinking everything will be okay because you've "done it before" doesn't track bub.

[dorquemada]

4 minutes ago, Jerome007 said:

Oh sure. Diggs, who is still playing at the top level is "too old. At 29. But bring in 30 yo Evans as savior? WTH. Who has been the better receiver between the two these last 5 years?

 

Diggs is the only guy that's still fighting.  I'd give him 100% veto power over any OC decisions because he's still invested.  the rest of them are, at best, JAGs

[Roundybout]

1 minute ago, MAJBobby said:

I am not sure there is a window anymore with Allen. 
 

love all his talent and that is something to build around. 
 

however the Turnovers JUST NEVER SLOW DOWN. 
 

I mean a guy that is talked about as elite has never had a back to back game in the NFL without a turnover that is horrible. 

You simply cannot use this stat without also saying he leads the NFL in touchdowns since 2019. It’s just who he is.

[PatsFanNH]

19 minutes ago, Dillenger4 said:

Josh is a turnover machine! Unfortunately, he is Jameis Winston part 2

Hey if you don’t want him the Pats give you a 4th and Mac Jones for him roflmbo.

 

(I’m kidding before anyone thinks I think the bills would trade him)

[MAJBobby]

1 minute ago, Roundybout said:

You simply cannot use this stat without also saying he leads the NFL in touchdowns since 2019. It’s just who he is.

SURE YOU CAN. 
 

cool leads the league in TDs. 
 

has a 2:1 TD to TO ratio. 
 

that ISNT GOOD ENOUGH. For a 250M QB. Sorry those are the cold hard facts 

[Mango]

21 minutes ago, corta765 said:

 

-The direction of the team needs to be offense first and defense be damned. It has been pointed out numerous times and properly that the force to make Josh dink and dunk and be safe is back firing worse then just letting him be and the offense attacking.

 

 

 

I agree with basically everything. But I take a little issue with this.

 

I switched to the Manning cast at half time and Eli said this (paraphrasing) after an ill advised deep throw "They are giving him everything underneath. Take the yards and march down the field. Does he know he is allowed to have a 10 play drive". We heard Brady say the same thing just a few weeks ago. 

Fire Dorsey. Whatever. At this point we have to, we are lost. But teams are playing us in 2 high shells and our QB is just ignoring it. Hire somebody that he will listen to. Bring in Palmer as our QB coach. Bring his HS coach on board. Hire both Manning's and Brady to QB coach Josh by committee. I don't care. But at some point the guy has to listen. In the last 2 weeks 3 HoF QB's have publicly said this is a problem. 

[Jerome007]

Bret Favre: 508  TD; 336 INT.

 

HOF. Superbowl winner.

 

Stop with the madness.

 

Josh has TO issues, for sure, yet he remains elite and the guy you build the team around This year he has regressed but so many factors could play into that. 

 

 

[Roundybout]

1 minute ago, MAJBobby said:

SURE YOU CAN. 
 

cool leads the league in TDs. 
 

has a 2:1 TD to TO ratio. 
 

that ISNT GOOD ENOUGH. For a 250M QB. Sorry those are the cold hard facts 

It’s absolutely good enough! He obliterates teams! When we have an OC who knows what he’s doing and can scheme receivers open, he’s not stoppable! 
 

We rely on his talent so much that they don’t bother doing anything to improve. The offense now only works if Josh does everything 100% perfectly. 
 

You cannot wave away the amount of touchdowns he has had in his career. It’s disingenuous.

[MAJBobby]

1 minute ago, Jerome007 said:

Bret Favre: 508  TD; 336 INT.

 

HOF. Superbowl winner.

 

Stop with the madness.

 

Josh has TO issues, for sure, yet he remains elite and the guy you build the team around This year he has regressed but so many factors could play into that. 

 

 

Cool so when are we seeing that Super Bowl Winner? 
 

what I am watching is a much more talented and exciting Eli Manning without the SBs 

[Jerome007]

Feel free to root for another team

[MAJBobby]

1 minute ago, Roundybout said:

It’s absolutely good enough! He obliterates teams! When we have an OC who knows what he’s doing and can scheme receivers open, he’s not stoppable! 
 

We rely on his talent so much that they don’t bother doing anything to improve. The offense now only works if Josh does everything 100% perfectly. 
 

You cannot wave away the amount of touchdowns he has had in his career. It’s disingenuous.

Really did he just obliterate Den. Or did he turn the ball over 3 times. 
 

What about Jets? Maybe Cincy? Heck how about NE? Maybe the Jags? 
 

2 minutes ago, Roundybout said:

It’s absolutely good enough! He obliterates teams! When we have an OC who knows what he’s doing and can scheme receivers open, he’s not stoppable! 
 

We rely on his talent so much that they don’t bother doing anything to improve. The offense now only works if Josh does everything 100% perfectly. 
 

You cannot wave away the amount of touchdowns he has had in his career. It’s disingenuous.

You cannot waive away the Turnovers that is Homerism 

[Success]

Coincidentally, "Cold Hard Truth" is what I'm going to title my memoir about being a Bills fan....

 

[Roundybout]

1 minute ago, MAJBobby said:

Really did he just obliterate Den. Or did he turn the ball over 3 times. 
 

What about Jets? Maybe Cincy? Heck how about NE? Maybe the Jags? 
 

You cannot waive away the Turnovers that is Homerism 

Waving away his league leading touchdowns is being willfully obtuse 

[MAJBobby]

Just now, Roundybout said:

Waving away his league leading touchdowns is being willfully obtuse 

Waiving away his league leading turnovers is being willfully obtuse 

[Roundybout]

Just now, MAJBobby said:

Waiving away his league leading turnovers is being willfully obtuse 

Touchdowns > turnovers. 

[corta765]

17 minutes ago, Jerome007 said:

Oh sure. Diggs, who is still playing at the top level is "too old. At 29. But bring in 30 yo Evans as savior? WTH. Who has been the better receiver between the two these last 5 years?

Evans is a bandaid. Davis is gone and that is why I said draft a kid. But Josh has never had a vertical big WR like Evans I think he would excel.

[Jerome007]

2 minutes ago, corta765 said:

Evans is a bandaid. Davis is gone and that is why I said draft a kid. But Josh has never had a vertical big WR like Evans I think he would excel.

You talk like if the Bills "simply" have to draft a stud WR, and Evans is just there for the taking. You know there are 32 teams in the NFL vying for top talent, and a salary cap? Of course if they somewhat draft a star WR and Evans replaced Davis, if would be better!  You thin Beane wouldn't do t hat if he could? 

 

 

[corta765]

8 minutes ago, Success said:

Coincidentally, "Cold Hard Truth" is what I'm going to title my memoir about being a Bills fan....

 

Going on my tombstone lol

[Jrb1979]

16 minutes ago, Roundybout said:

You simply cannot use this stat without also saying he leads the NFL in touchdowns since 2019. It’s just who he is.

Allen is an elite athlete that plays QB. IMO he will never be the elite pocket QB they are trying to make him. He struggles reading the defense. Let him scramble and make plays. At least the offense scored when they were playing that way. 

 

 

[corta765]

Just now, Jerome007 said:

You talk like if the Bills "simply" have to draft a stud WR, and Evans is just there for the taking. You know there are 32 teams in the NFL vying for top talent, and a salary cap? Of course if they somewhat draft a star WR and Evans replaced Davis, if would be better!  You thin Beane wouldn't do t hat if he could? 

 

 

 

Fast fact these are ideas and ways to improve. Your 100% right 31 other teams doing the same so of course it is a battle. At the same time it came out the Bills looked at ODB and then went with Hardy/Sheff mix so its not like they haven't explored this avenue

[Roundybout]

Just now, Jrb1979 said:

Allen is an elite athlete that plays QB. IMO he will never be the elite pocket QB they are trying to make him. He struggles reading the defense. Let him scramble and make plays. At least the offense scored when they were playing that way. 

 

 

When they play to his strengths and spread everyone out, he’s very very good at reading the defense. The evidence is there. 
 

He’s not good at reading complicated blitzes when our receivers are close to the line like Dorsey calls.

[Coach Tuesday]

18 minutes ago, Mango said:

 

I agree with basically everything. But I take a little issue with this.

 

I switched to the Manning cast at half time and Eli said this (paraphrasing) after an ill advised deep throw "They are giving him everything underneath. Take the yards and march down the field. Does he know he is allowed to have a 10 play drive". We heard Brady say the same thing just a few weeks ago. 

Fire Dorsey. Whatever. At this point we have to, we are lost. But teams are playing us in 2 high shells and our QB is just ignoring it. Hire somebody that he will listen to. Bring in Palmer as our QB coach. Bring his HS coach on board. Hire both Manning's and Brady to QB coach Josh by committee. I don't care. But at some point the guy has to listen. In the last 2 weeks 3 HoF QB's have publicly said this is a problem. 

He is immature and it may take having his friend Dorsey fired to get him to take life more seriously.

[Jerome007]

2 minutes ago, corta765 said:

 

 then went with Hardy/Sheff mix so its not like they haven't explored this avenue

I REALLY thought the Bills would have the #1 offense this year. The two new guards alone would make a huge improvement. Josh with time is still crazy good! Great even.

 

And I thought Harty would be the "secret surprise" signing, that his deep pass threat would open up the field, and combined with Cook and Kincaid underneath, it would make this offense unstoppable. Sooooo disappointing. The D has been decimated with injuries. Not the offense. 

[Coach Tuesday]

6 minutes ago, corta765 said:

Going on my tombstone lol

Mine will read “User Error”

[Jerome007]

26 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

You cannot waive away the Turnovers that is Homerism 

Peyton Manning:  539 TDs; 251 INTs

 

Favre is a more extreme example, but here's one of the most cerebral QB ever, with a ratio near Josh's. And another HOF and SB winner.

 

Look, we ALL want Josh to have less turnovers! But your point that he is not elite simply doesn't stand. Period. He is flawed but the 2021 and 2022 Josh was elite. Most had him as the #2 QB in the league. What's your point, trade him for draft picks?

 

As for Josh not winning any yet. Marino never did. Elway did at the very end. Peyton has 1 as a great QB, and 1 being a manager QB with a great defense. Stop the tearing down. Firing and trading everyone will not lead to success!

 

 

Edited November 14, 2023 by Jerome007

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

40 minutes ago, corta765 said:

Just gonna shoot straight from the hip here and call it as I see it:

 

-The losses have all been soul crushing type. NYJ/NE/DEN were last second crap that makes you want to scream. I will always rather lose by a lot then a little because it is far more painful. CIN wasn't as close but the Kincaid fumble ruined any real shot and JAX was close for the most part until the D wilted at the end

 

-The Bills superbowl window with McD is over. The window with Allen 100% exists but there is only one path forward and the longer they take to make the wholesale change need at headcoach the less time they have with that window.

 

-The direction of the team needs to be offense first and defense be damned. It has been pointed out numerous times and properly that the force to make Josh dink and dunk and be safe is back firing worse then just letting him be and the offense attacking.

 

-The defense is fine and even injury wise held ok. But it is concerning that when the big moments come and they need a stop they keep faltering badly. I don't see that changing this season it is what it is. Long term I actually feel good about the defense when they are healthy for the future as outside of Von & the safeties they have good talent and are pretty young

 

-The biggest issue not being brought up that can really derail the offense further is Diggs. His age is real and his days are very numbered, after him Kincaid looks like a stud and Shakir isn't bad but they do not have much. They really need to add a rookie and even a guy like Mike Evans this offseason to shore that up. They can hire a new coach/oc etc.. but the offense needs more at the WR spot otherwise any return back to high play we liked will be capped.

 

-It is really frustrating as a fan that the regression is as real as it has been as a team and it feels we have fallen from being a Tier 1 team to middling at best. I cannot see any justification for keeping McD at this point. He did a great job stabilizing and building this team up, but his program is maxxed out and there is nowhere left to go with him.

 

Diggs is a solid route runner who takes care of his body - i'm not worried about his ability right now or probably even for the next 2 seasons.  He can transition into the slot and likely excel at it.  I'm more worried he'll be an offseason issue again and want out. 

 

Part of why i don't think you can "rebuild" - you have to "re-tool".  Lot of draft picks - really need to hit on those 4 picks in rounds 1-3. 

 

Players likely gone - Morse, Hines, Harty, Davis, Sherfield, Settle, Phillips, Lawson, Ford, Hyde, Jackson

Possible cap casualties - Tre, Neal, Poyer

Players you'd like to bring back - AJE, Floyd, DQ, Hyde (assuming mcdermott is still here)

 

I feel like you have to cut tre unfortunately - but replacing him has to be players on the roster if you're doing that.  

 

QB - Allen

RB - Cook - ??? - ???

FB - Gilliam (so little cost savings - they could move on and it wouldn't move the needle a bit)

WR - Diggs - ??? - Shakir --- ??? --- Shorter

TE - Knox, Kincaid

T - Dawkins, Brown, Van Demark

G - McGovern, Torrance

C - Bates 

 

I think there are positions to upgrade here - RT, C probably... but add a WR with some real speed and hire someone to get allen's head on straight again and the offense will be fine.  Allen playing better is the big key.

 

Defense its ... 

DE - Miller, Johnathan

DT - Oliver - ???

NT - ??? - ???

DE - Groot

WLB - Milano - Williams

MLB - Bernard - Spector

CB - White - Benford - Douglas - Elam

NB - Johnson - Neal

FS - Hamlin - ???

SS - Poyer - ???

[corta765]

27 minutes ago, Jerome007 said:

I REALLY thought the Bills would have the #1 offense this year. The two new guards alone would make a huge improvement. Josh with time is still crazy good! Great even.

 

And I thought Harty would be the "secret surprise" signing, that his deep pass threat would open up the field, and combined with Cook and Kincaid underneath, it would make this offense unstoppable. Sooooo disappointing. The D has been decimated with injuries. Not the offense. 

The fact it took so long to get Kincaid going who from week 1 on has been open 24/7 was concerning.

28 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Mine will read “User Error”

 

"First time caller long time listener"

[RyanC883]

1 hour ago, Dillenger4 said:

Josh is a turnover machine! Unfortunately, he is Jameis Winston part 2

 

eh, more like Brett Farve perhaps.  With a better staff around him, hopefully he finishes with 2 SB wins like Elway.