Dan Orlovsky….. Bills offense is fundamentally broken

[Heavy Kevi]

1 hour ago, Mango said:

I don’t think that’s what he’s saying here at all. He makes two different points. 
 

1. He hates when teams put a QB in shotgun on 3rd/4th and short. Especially with having a QB run built into the play. Yes he’s complaining about Dorsey, but he’s complains about it across the league as well

 

2. “Why put a guy if you’re not going to use the information. Kincaid is your zone route and Josh is looking at the other side of the field”. This is his fundamental issue with the play. That we motioned, got a read on the defense, and didn’t even look at the proper receiver based on the information provided. So at that point he says “why put him in motion over and over again”. It’s not questioning the act of motioning Kincaid. He’s questioning why didn’t the QB use the j formation it gave him. 

I think the shotgun thing is just a pet peeve of his he can’t help himself but to comment on. 
 

The criticism of the play is that the QB didn’t even look that way when he proactively put a guy in motion and got the information that said “throw to Kincaid”.

 

This is a great post.

 

Orlovsky doesn't articulate his problem with this play well but I believe you got it anyway.

 

He's not saying "don't motion", he's saying "don't motion if you aren't going to use the information from it" since that's the whole point of the motion is to see what the defense is doing.

 

Theoretically then, you would exploit it (throw to Kincaid in the flat)

[Roundybout]

2 minutes ago, Bruffalo said:

Gabe isn't open until the ball is already out of Allen's hands. The flats are open, he should have gone to Cook I guess, but it's a bad play call. 

It’s a horrific play call. Cover 1 is seething this morning because they did an entire video segment on why this play doesn’t work FIVE WEEKS AGO

[MikePJ76]

4 minutes ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

This is what gets me.  They were having great success running the football.  Why not keep at it?  

 

It makes no sense.  

It was the most frustrating thing about the season so far to me.  A light should have been going off in the staffs mind last night when seeing Denver line up down after down.   It should have been run the ball until they commit to stop it.  

 

instead they killed drives trying to throw the ball.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

1 hour ago, Mango said:

I think somebody is losing their job at the bye. It could even be McD. I think the issue might be that they don’t have anybody they like enough to call plays. 
 

I feel like I also saw McD covering his face during some drives on offense. What are the chances this jabroni is calling plays on both sides of the ball?

 

Yeah I've been thinking the bye too barring wins over both the Jets and Eagles, though likely will only be Dorsey.  Assuming they lose at least one of the two, it's likely not going to make a difference at that point so the problem I see with firing both Dorsey and McD mid season is now you kind of have to replace 3 people, OC, DC, and HC.  Don't think I ever recall a team doing that mid season. Yes you could allow one of the newly named coordinators to also be the HC, but that's going to be hard enough on it's own without adding more responsibility to that person.

[DeltaDigital]

17 minutes ago, Roundybout said:

Gabe isn’t open until after the ball is thrown. Ball should have gone to cook and he would have gotten 7 or so

that's where a GREAT Qb knows where EVERYONE is going to be on the field. Thats a huge gain if allen has any anticipation (read, knowdlege of where is players are and are going TO BE) Do these guys even practice? 

[Dillenger4]

Josh is a turnover machine! Unfortunately, he is Jameis Winston part 2

Just now, DeltaDigital said:

that's where a GREAT Qb knows where EVERYONE is going to be on the field. Thats a huge gain if allen has any anticipation (read, knowdlege of where is players are and are going TO BE) Do these guys even practice? 

Josh is showing us who he really is and always was. Easy to figure out. Defenses laugh now when they see us on the sked.

[Roundybout]

3 minutes ago, DeltaDigital said:

that's where a GREAT Qb knows where EVERYONE is going to be on the field. Thats a huge gain if allen has any anticipation (read, knowdlege of where is players are and are going TO BE) Do these guys even practice? 

A huge gain to who?

[MikePJ76]

4 minutes ago, Dillenger4 said:

Josh is a turnover machine! Unfortunately, he is Jameis Winston part 2

Josh is showing us who he really is and always was. Easy to figure out. Defenses laugh now when they see us on the sked.

Good grief now you are comparing Allen to Winston.

 

That is enough of this place for me until sunday.  

[Avisan]

4 minutes ago, Roundybout said:

A huge gain to who?

A 7-yard gain out of bounds or a throwaway are both reasonable outcomes vs. an interception there. Throw to Cook or throw it away.

Edited November 14, 2023 by Avisan

[AlfaBill]

I love when posters call a former QB and current paid analyst an idiot. Lol. He forgot more about football than anyone on this board. 

[Roundybout]

1 minute ago, Avisan said:

A 7-yard gain out of bounds or a throwaway are both reasonable outcomes vs. an interception there. Throw to Cook or throw it away.

That’s not a “huge gain” like you originally said 

[AlfaBill]

This offense is way too complex. Unnecessarily so. 

[Brianmoorman4jesus]

How many weeks past the time will we wait to make the change? Basically eliminated now, let’s wait 3 more weeks and make the change. That’s the dumb ass ***** we do. Wait until it doesn’t even matter anymore to dress Fournette. Just zero brains 

[Wayne Arnold]

2 hours ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

Dan orlovsky is an absolute moron every time I see him try to analyze a play lol. Kincaid is clearly going to be absolutely wide open presnap…nothing wrong with the playcall 

 

he’s literally explaining why teams do line up in shotgun on 4th and 1 when he’s trying to say that it’s dumb 😂. It gives you a wider variety of qb runs/rpo opportunities.  A qb run didn’t happen on this particular play but the defense has to respect it.  
 

josh flubbed this play and the entire game big time 

 

You have to be joking.

 

4th and 1

Your offense is better under center vs. shotgun

 

No one is open and Allen is left heaving a prayer while getting tackled...and it's Allen that is to blame?

 

Just another dumb play call by a dumb offensive coordinator. 

[Mango]

14 minutes ago, Roundybout said:

It’s a horrific play call. Cover 1 is seething this morning because they did an entire video segment on why this play doesn’t work FIVE WEEKS AGO

 

I get it, it is great to have local guys like Cover 1. But everybody isn't right all the time. I think all sorts of NFL pundits are wrong sometimes, and a bunch of them have gold jackets.

 

I think C1 does a good job, but as of late their content seems to lack depth. Last weeks "Everything is broken" video sort of flipped me on them.

 

- Showing plays like "Look there are 2 receivers in Josh's field of view, and 2 receivers not in his view" (everybody can't and shouldn't be on the same side of the field)  - "This guys was open in this concept against this defense, but what if he wasn't" (well then the defense would be different too)

- "Look at all these zone beater routes against the cover 2 shell, what an idiot" (so the right routes vs. the right defense?).

 

It just isn't compelling video breakdown. I get the sense they have peaked.

I posted earlier, I think there is space to say we should have rolled Josh out, or we should have run the ball, or we should be under center. But I can't wrap my head around the idea that the entire play call is flawed when the QB ignores the defense and the correct read to an open pass catcher. Like, what didn't or doesn't work here? Pre-snap motion to identify the defense. Nobody moves, they are in zone. Josh's zone read is to his right. He is open. Josh looks left. Some of the mesh concepts ran right into the teeth of the defense, but it also left Kincaid alone on the perimeter. 

I find it a struggle to question the entirety of the play when we aren't even operating within the basics. Come at me when Josh looks right, Kincaid is covered and the rest of the field is blanketed. Otherwise the play had a check and an outlet for the defense they were facing. 

 

[Wayne Arnold]

4 minutes ago, Mango said:

 

I find it a struggle to question the entirety of the play when we aren't even operating within the basics. Come at me when Josh looks right, Kincaid is covered and the rest of the field is blanketed. Otherwise the play had a check and an outlet for the defense they were facing. 

 

 

Where is the check and outlet? If Allen looks right and throws to Kincaid even immediately, Kincaid gets blasted by the LB/Nickel before he even gains the yard for the first down. That's if he catches it.

[Avisan]

Just now, Wayne Arnold said:

 

Where is the check and outlet? If Allen looks right and throws to Kincaid even immediately, Kincaid gets blasted by the LB/Nickel before he even gains the yard for the first down. That's if he catches it.

Kincaid was open for the first, there.  Defenders are backing away from the LoS to account for the other receivers and Kincaid would have made it.

 

Short pitches and catches are basic functions of NFL skill players, so I would hope that this isn't too much of an assumption to ask for in playcalling.

[Julio Hopkins]

1 hour ago, SDS said:

was it a good breakdown? Shakir was wide-open in the middle of the field and Dan completely ignores him. How much else did he say was completely wrong?

 

Wide open if you ignore the fifty players in front of him and if Josh takes a sack waiting for him to cross the middle high safety.  

[Wayne Arnold]

10 minutes ago, Avisan said:

Kincaid was open for the first, there.  Defenders are backing away from the LoS to account for the other receivers and Kincaid would have made it.

 

Short pitches and catches are basic functions of NFL skill players, so I would hope that this isn't too much of an assumption to ask for in playcalling.

 

Kincaid wasn't the first read in the play that was called, though. It was a three-step drop out of shotgun (such a dumb play call on 4th and 1). Even if Allen decides pre-snap that Kincaid is his first read and Allen throws to him at the end of his drop, the defender likely closes in on time to knock the ball out or tackle Kincaid short of the first. That would be a very risky throw to attempt on a 4th down.

[Big Turk]

Has it been mostly broken since the mid point of the 2021 season? That's when Daboll's offense started having issues far more frequently as well and it seems the first month and a half with Dorsey is mostly fine until teams get settled in and get more game tape and start going back to what gives the Bills offense issues and the same problems crop up again...3 years straight now.  It cannot be a coincidence.  The D was there to help them out more often than not in those other 2 years...this year not so much.

 

 

[Haslett_Stomp]

56 minutes ago, MikePJ76 said:

It was the most frustrating thing about the season so far to me.  A light should have been going off in the staffs mind last night when seeing Denver line up down after down.   It should have been run the ball until they commit to stop it.  

 

instead they killed drives trying to throw the ball.

 

^ this.  At one point Murray gained at least 7-8 yards on consecutive runs, then the Bills go with an empty backfield.  They should have run it down Denver's throat until they stopped it.

[Big Turk]

2 minutes ago, Wayne Arnold said:

 

Kincaid wasn't the first read in the play that was called, though. It was a three-step drop out of shotgun (such a dumb play call on 4th and 1). Even if Allen decides pre-snap that Kincaid is his first read and Allen throws to him at the end of his drop, the defender likely closes in on time to knock the ball out or tackle Kincaid short of the first. That would be a very risky throw to attempt on a 4th down.

 

The bigger issue - Why were they even in that position in the first place?

 

Because Diggs(of all people) dropped an easy catch on 2nd down which would have made Kincaid's catch on 3rd down an easy 1st down and kept them out of having to go for it on 4th down to begin with.

 

Cascading issues are the theme with this team.

 

Edited November 14, 2023 by Big Turk

[Wayne Arnold]

1 minute ago, Big Turk said:

 

The bigger issue - Why were they even in that position in the first place?

 

Because Diggs(of all people) dropped an easy catch on 2nd down which would have made Kincaid's catch on 3rd down an easy 1st down and kept them out of having to go for it on 4th down to begin with.

 

Cascading issues are the theme with this team.

 

 

Correct. The offense is a mess. The entire program is stale. 100% indicative of an NFL team that needs a brand new coaching staff.

[RousseauRage]

We are wasting this defense by having such an inept offense for YEARS.

[Murdox]

2 hours ago, FireChans said:

There was someone who was in charge of the offense. Someone who like, coordinates it? 

 

I’ll do some digging but maybe this guy isn’t doing his job well enough. 

 

I can kind of agree with Dan that they put the guy in motion and the read of zone defense was there and should have been used to get the ball out to Dalton quickly.  It was an easy first down.

[Saratoga Leo]

1 hour ago, Avisan said:

Yeah.  The coaching staff may well have some insurmountable limitations, but poor player execution is the demonstrable cause of many of our offensive woes, and most of those errors don't appear to be due to design complexity or anything unusual or novel at the NFL level.

 

Like okay, replace the coaches-- is that going to solve our ability to read the defense, catch the ball, hang onto the ball, or finish tackles?

Agreed but I think it goes deeper. There is a rather simplistic saying related to elementary school teachers - "If the students aren't learning, the teacher isn't teaching".

It seems the players are not learning what the coaches are trying to teach. 

[Mango]

1 minute ago, Murdox said:

 

I can kind of agree with Dan that they put the guy in motion and the read of zone defense was there and should have been used to get the ball out to Dalton quickly.  It was an easy first down.

 

Or at least hold after the motion and redirect traffic a bit. 

[Airseven]

2 hours ago, Pirate Angel said:

All I can think about when I hear Dan Orlovsky is when he ran out of the back of the end zone and gave up a safety. Hard to listen to him critique anything after that 

He makes insightful points. Articulate at the very least. But then loses credibility when he dances (flops) around on set with the rest of the clowns gunning for social media snippets.

[Don Otreply]

2 hours ago, stlbills13 said:

Orlovsky has been right about a lot of things regarding the Bills this season but he's gotten to the point of being annoying and repetitive now. 

Its only annoying because he’s right, Dorsey is in over his head, and the offense is fundamentally broken.

 

GO BILLS!!!