Never thought I'd see a Josh Allen lead team on the outside looking in

[KeLLy1278]

On 11/5/2023 at 9:28 PM, Scott7975 said:

Even the Jets are ahead of us in the hunt.  I said this game was practically a must win.  I also said if the Bills lost this game a WC is unlikely and the Bills would need to win the division to make the playoffs.  There is zero room for error now and we are going to need help.  We lose the head to head against a wild card competitor.  We have too many conference losses against other teams in the hunt.  Buffalo is likely going to have to win out or lose maybe one and get some help.

 

 

Yes I know 4 of those teams are from the same division and they will somewhat beat each other up, but we still have no room for error.  

Dude you’re reaching.  This is not a good team and it is poorly coached.  Even if they make the playoffs they will get their behinds handed to them so what’s the point?  To hope they get hot and win the SB?  The Miracle happened on 34th street, not in Buffalo.

This team has too many things to overcome.

[Scott7975]

5 minutes ago, KeLLy1278 said:

Dude you’re reaching.  This is not a good team and it is poorly coached.  Even if they make the playoffs they will get their behinds handed to them so what’s the point?  To hope they get hot and win the SB?  The Miracle happened on 34th street, not in Buffalo.

This team has too many things to overcome.

I’m reaching?  Seems you agree with me. Did you read my post?

[John from Riverside]

If we lose to Denver, we deserve what we get

[reddogblitz]

On 11/5/2023 at 10:14 PM, Boatdrinks said:

Yep. The coaches have effectively neutered Allen for long stretches of these games. It’s not a successful strategy. 

 

Allen neutered himself in the opener by throwing 3 picks and fumbling. That's not the coaches fault.  He plays like he's capable in that one and we've in first place  in the AFC East.

 

I know conventional TBD wisdom is it's all the coaches fault. A fair share of it is for sure.  But Allen deserves a share too for his screw ups. He got the fat contract, he needs to produce like he deserves it.

[transplantbillsfan]

3 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Well first I never said the comparisons are ridiculous unless I am more braindead than I thought.  I said they aren't the same. We don't have the same soft schedule, we don't have the same weak division, and we haven't looked THIS bad on a 5 game stretch.  

 

Secondly, these are my thoughts about where current things stand. I'll bring it back when I want.  That could be every week for an update on standings each week.  That might not even be until the end of the season where I can say I was right or wrong.  It won't be because I am so braindead that I can't remember my own thread though.  I'm not that damn stupid.

 

I mean, you are still running a Josh Allen MVP thread.  Should I insult your memory and tell you to bring that up at the end of the year when he once again doesn't win it?

 

This is tiring. You're just going to keep moving goalposts.

 

I think you're talking offensive production. It's kinda hard to keep track at this point. Maybe you should clarify... team wins? QB stats? Offensive production? Defensive production? Wins against teams with winning records????

 

Seriously... what specifically is your argument? Your offensive production argument vs 2021 carries no weight. First of all, if you're thinking offensive production, we are NOT in a 5 game slump. Tampa and Jacksonville would be excluded. In both games we gained more yards than the average NFL yards gained this season along with scoring more points. Even if you want to exclude the London game arguing garbage time, you can't do that with the Bucs game.

 

Again, maybe you should wait a few games.

[Boatdrinks]

6 hours ago, reddogblitz said:

 

Allen neutered himself in the opener by throwing 3 picks and fumbling. That's not the coaches fault.  He plays like he's capable in that one and we've in first place  in the AFC East.

 

I know conventional TBD wisdom is it's all the coaches fault. A fair share of it is for sure.  But Allen deserves a share too for his screw ups. He got the fat contract, he needs to produce like he deserves it.

Yep, that particular game was 90% on him , and he admitted as much. 

[BarleyNY]

2 hours ago, Boatdrinks said:

Yep, that particular game was 90% on him , and he admitted as much. 

 

It’s worth discussing how much of the issue is Allen not performing versus his circumstances. Is he being put into situations where too much is being asked of him or is him in generally favorable situations and not coming through? I think the blame is a lot closer to 50/50 than 100/0 - something like 60/40 with a lean toward the circumstances (scheme, play calling, talent, etc.) Allen had been put in. Edited to add: Some of Allen’s 40 is probably frustration. 

 

This brings up the topic of reasonable expectations with a top QB like Allen. He’s been a top 3 QB in the league. It’s not reasonable to expect SB win after SB win, but it is very reasonable to expect more than what we’ve gotten. In fact, our playoff record with Allen playing as a top QB is a huge indictment of McDermott (and to a lesser extent, Beane). 

Edited November 8, 2023 by BarleyNY

[Matt_In_NH]

I find the lack of offensive production baffling.  People are hyper focused on Dorsey and Davis.   I don't think the #2 receiver is a logical explanation.  Sure Tee Higgins is an upgrade but I dont think they would change much with him over Davis.  There is plenty of success throwing to Kincaid and Shakir and Diggs.  Its not like there is no one to throw to.  One factor is how defenses are playing guys like Allen and Mahomes (also not having his typical year by the way).  The offenses have to find ways to counter what the defense is doing....that is on Dorsey.  However the one place people put their blinders on with is the play of Josh Allen....it's like he can do no wrong, when its not working it has to be everyone else's fault.  Yet he is the single most critical person who determines the success of the offense.   Joe Marino has shown clearly how he turns down easy throws at times.   Josh is throwing easier passes, completing a higher percentage of passes and actually throwing the ball away more than he has in the past yet his interception rate is the highest it has been since his rookie year.  That is one thing I thought would come down as he throws for less air yards and takes throw aways.  

[C.Biscuit97]

Allen has a part in this too. Like at the garbage receivers Mahomes has. They are both getting paid where they aren’t going to be surrounded by all pros at every position. They are going to have to carry their teams at times. 
 

Allen, while very low on the list of problems, needs to make better decisions and I don’t what has happened to his deep ball. But he has exactly been clean this year. He needs to be better

[zow2]

7 hours ago, reddogblitz said:

 

Allen neutered himself in the opener by throwing 3 picks and fumbling. That's not the coaches fault.  He plays like he's capable in that one and we've in first place  in the AFC East.

 

I know conventional TBD wisdom is it's all the coaches fault. A fair share of it is for sure.  But Allen deserves a share too for his screw ups. He got the fat contract, he needs to produce like he deserves it.

 

The Allen stats are a bit misleading for sure.  Is he the reason they win games? of course.  But in these losses his play, especially first half is very frustrating.  Drives are stalling out on 3rd downs because he's careless and chucking the ball needlessly downfield into coverage, when the defenses are GIVING him the short routes.  Take what they are giving you and keep drives alive.

[C.Biscuit97]

2 minutes ago, zow2 said:

 

The Allen stats are a bit misleading for sure.  Is he the reason they win games? of course.  But in these losses his play, especially first half is very frustrating.  Drives are stalling out on 3rd downs because he's careless and chucking the ball needlessly downfield into coverage, when the defenses are GIVING him the short routes.  Take what they are giving you and keep drives alive.

Those droughts against the Jets and Jags are the reason for those losses, not the injury depleted defense. 

[zow2]

14 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Allen has a part in this too. Like at the garbage receivers Mahomes has. They are both getting paid where they aren’t going to be surrounded by all pros at every position. They are going to have to carry their teams at times. 
 

Allen, while very low on the list of problems, needs to make better decisions and I don’t what has happened to his deep ball. But he has exactly been clean this year. He needs to be better

 

His deep passes this year suck.  So many are low frozen ropes, no trajectory, no touch.  DB's can break those up without even turning around.  In prior seasons he was getting really good at throwing deep passes with touch, accurately, while getting some air under them and allowing receivers to run under.  That is gone.

[SWATeam]

26 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Allen has a part in this too. Like at the garbage receivers Mahomes has. They are both getting paid where they aren’t going to be surrounded by all pros at every position. They are going to have to carry their teams at times. 
 

Allen, while very low on the list of problems, needs to make better decisions and I don’t what has happened to his deep ball. But he has exactly been clean this year. He needs to be better

And the offensive production has been about the same.

 

The difference is, take away Chris Jones and half the rest of KC's defensive starters and see how they are doing?  Unfortunately the injury bug has bit too many of our best players and they all happen to be on the same unit.  Extreme bad luck that is nearly impossible to overcome.

[colin]

16 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

I rolled my eyes because you aren't allowing yourself to consider the similarities.  Here's a stroll down memory lane in terms of our feelings toward our offense and OC in 2021:

 

Similarities between 2021 and 2023 are pretty obvious, including the offensive inconsistency. In 2021, Buffalo's worst scoring outputs were 6, 10, 15 and 16 points whereas in 2023 the worst offensive outputs are 14, 16, 18 and 20.

 

 

you make a strong point here, and anything is possible especially w allen at qb, so i will continue watching!

 

that said, im now of the opinion that daboll was a problem, just less of one than the rest of our staff.  dorsey was under dabloll the whole time anyhow, not like a sea change happened.

[oldmanfan]

While I don’t think Dorsey is doing a good job, the above also shows how folks complained about Daboll as well.  The question is what is going on behind the scenes in the QB room.  Was Daboll and is Dorsey pointing out when guys are open underneath and such, instructing Josh to go there, but he’s not seeing it on the field?  Is he refusing to take the easier route in favor of the throw downfield?  Are guys really not open and Josh has nowhere to go with the ball?  Are WRs making bad decisions on routes?  It is likely all are a part of it.  But there is little doubt the league’s DCs can read what we want to do now and know how to defend it.

[BarleyNY]

41 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

While I don’t think Dorsey is doing a good job, the above also shows how folks complained about Daboll as well.  The question is what is going on behind the scenes in the QB room.  Was Daboll and is Dorsey pointing out when guys are open underneath and such, instructing Josh to go there, but he’s not seeing it on the field?  Is he refusing to take the easier route in favor of the throw downfield?  Are guys really not open and Josh has nowhere to go with the ball?  Are WRs making bad decisions on routes?  It is likely all are a part of it.  But there is little doubt the league’s DCs can read what we want to do now and know how to defend it.

 

I think Daboll was blamed for everything on that side of the ball, whether or not it was his fault. This time around people see that there’s blame to go around with Dorsey/McD’s scheme & play calling, Beane/McD’s resource allocation and Allen & Co all having a share. 

[Buffalo03]

It happens sometimes. Did you know that the Colts had a non playoff season in prime Peyton Manning's 4th year? The Colts went 6-10. The Saints missed the playoffs with prime Drew Brees numerous times as well. It happens 

Edited November 8, 2023 by Buffalo03

[Scott7975]

On 11/8/2023 at 2:42 AM, transplantbillsfan said:

 

This is tiring. You're just going to keep moving goalposts.

 

I think you're talking offensive production. It's kinda hard to keep track at this point. Maybe you should clarify... team wins? QB stats? Offensive production? Defensive production? Wins against teams with winning records????

 

Seriously... what specifically is your argument? Your offensive production argument vs 2021 carries no weight. First of all, if you're thinking offensive production, we are NOT in a 5 game slump. Tampa and Jacksonville would be excluded. In both games we gained more yards than the average NFL yards gained this season along with scoring more points. Even if you want to exclude the London game arguing garbage time, you can't do that with the Bucs game.

 

Again, maybe you should wait a few games.

 

Im not moving any goal posts.  My thread is about missing the playoffs if we dont win the division.  Here is your weekly update... we are 10th in the race (3 spots out of the playoffs), tie breakers with almost no one, only  reason we aren't 14th is bye weeks and teams behind us not have played that game yet, Miami technically 2 games ahead of us in the division.

Edited November 14, 2023 by Scott7975

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

You shouldn't be surprised since he's a major catalyst of the failure machine.

 

He's so damned overrated 

[transplantbillsfan]

30 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Im not moving any goal posts.  My thread is about missing the playoffs if we dont win the division.  Here is your weekly update... we are 10th in the race (3 spots out of the playoffs), tie breakers with almost no one, only  reason we aren't 14th is bye weeks and teams behind us not have played that game yet, Miami technically 2 games ahead of us in the division.

 

Looks bleak right now