2023 MVP: Lamar will win it with 15 fewer TDs than Josh Allen (end of season talk pg 75+)

[GunnerBill]

7 minutes ago, BananaB said:

Ravens have drafted 3 WRs in the first round in 5 years and the weapons excuse keeps getting tossed out there for mediocre play.

 

They traded one away. Bateman was a bad pick I said that at the time, and it had been compounded by his constant injuries. Flowers is a talent - he is - but he isn't a true #1 receiver type. He is more the chess piece space move receiver.

 

I think the Ravens weapons this year are fine, certainly compared to past years, but they are not stellar and Andrews his unquestionable #1 has been out. 

 

EDIT: and I repeat I say this as someone who does not thing Lamar has any serious business being considered the MVP front runner. He has had a fine season. He is not the MVP.

Edited December 29, 2023 by GunnerBill

[C.Biscuit97]

2 minutes ago, BananaB said:

Ravens have drafted 3 WRs in the first round in 5 years and the weapons excuse keeps getting tossed out there for mediocre play.

They traded one who has done nothing in Arizona. The other one, Bateman, got hurt a million times, and is a 3rd wr at best. Flowers is very good. They overpaid OBJ (who I said was washed in that disaster of thread we had) because they were so desperate to give him weapons who is meh. 
 

The Bills traded a 1st for Diggs. They spent a 1st on Kincaid. They drafted Cook in the 2nd. 
 

also, this isn’t Allen vs Lamar because I really like them both. Point is Allen’s cast isn’t as bad as it is made out to be here. 

[HappyDays]

33 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Yeah I agree with some of your points but Mahomes would be awesome here.

 

Mahomes has a better MVP case than Lamar does. More total yards and TDs despite clearly having a worse offensive supporting cast (albeit a better defense). But again, the actual MVP award has become a joke.

[The Wiz]

3 minutes ago, zow2 said:

The most absurd reason for Lamar being MVP and not Allen that I heard this week on TV...  "Lamar would have 45 TD's by now if he called him own number by the goal line like Allen does".   Ok, so now we're going to award the MVP based on reasoning like that for things that never happened?

 

 

The hilarious part of this comment is these are the same people that were touting Hurts as the MVP for the first 10-12 weeks of the season because of the same reason.

[C.Biscuit97]

3 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I would rather have the 40 TDs Allen has given us compared to the 24 TDs Lamar has had. The thing about the Bills is that Allen's TDs can't have been scored by anyone else. He's responsible for 85.1% of our TDs scored versus Lamar who's responsible for 54.5% of theirs.

 

Our weapons may be a little better on the whole, although considering Diggs has not been close to elite for the past 8 weeks or so that is not a gimme. But either way the discrepancy between 40 TDs and 24 TDs is not because of the offensive supporting cast. It's because of the QBs.

 

I find it weird that Lamar's MVP campaign has suddenly risen so high after the 49ers game. Did people actually watch that game? He started the game by running backwards for 20 yards and giving up a dumb safety. The next several drives he missed a bunch of passes including a couple on 3rd down that ended drives. If the 49ers offense had done what they usually do it would have been a blowout at halftime. Instead the Ravens defense dominated the game and gave Lamar more than enough time to settle in.

 

I get that the actual MVP award has become a complete joke driven by narratives more than facts. But I'd like to think that as fans we can be smarter than that.

It’s stupid award and I don’t really care either way. 
 

but if the situations were reversed, you be screaming for Allen to be the mvp over Lamar because he is the qb of the number 1 seed who’s team never trails.  I think the Ravens have 7 wins of double digits against winning teams this year (something like that). So they have a lot of Dallas games where Allen didn’t have to do anything.   

3 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Mahomes has a better MVP case than Lamar does. More total yards and TDs despite clearly having a worse offensive supporting cast (albeit a better defense). But again, the actual MVP award has become a joke.

This is the worst season of Mahomes career. That’s how high he set the bar. Plus, they have 6 losses (and counting). I agree he might have the most garbage cast of any MVP caliber qb but it is what it is. 

[mrags]

8 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I would rather have the 40 TDs Allen has given us compared to the 24 TDs Lamar has had. The thing about the Bills is that Allen's TDs can't have been scored by anyone else. He's responsible for 85.1% of our TDs scored versus Lamar who's responsible for 54.5% of theirs.

 

Our weapons may be a little better on the whole, although considering Diggs has not been close to elite for the past 8 weeks or so that is not a gimme. But either way the discrepancy between 40 TDs and 24 TDs is not because of the offensive supporting cast. It's because of the QBs.

 

I find it weird that Lamar's MVP campaign has suddenly risen so high after the 49ers game. Did people actually watch that game? He started the game by running backwards for 20 yards and giving up a dumb safety. The next several drives he missed a bunch of passes including a couple on 3rd down that ended drives. If the 49ers offense had done what they usually do it would have been a blowout at halftime. Instead the Ravens defense dominated the game and gave Lamar more than enough time to settle in.

 

I get that the actual MVP award has become a complete joke driven by narratives more than facts. But I'd like to think that as fans we can be smarter than that.

Probably the biggest problem you ran into. 

[zow2]

I think Lamar gets more help from his defense, running game and special teams for wins.  If Allen ends the season with two really good games, and no turnovers,,,and the Bills finish 11-6 I think he should get it for sure.  If not Josh, I'd say McCaffrey or Tyreek... I just would not automatically give it to Lamar based on team record.  He has the same number of TD's as Howell, who is now benched so Sam won't be able to keep up any longer lol

[C.Biscuit97]

6 minutes ago, zow2 said:

The most absurd reason for Lamar being MVP and not Allen that I heard this week on TV...  "Lamar would have 45 TD's by now if he called him own number by the goal line like Allen does".   Ok, so now we're going to award the MVP based on reasoning like that for things that never happened?

 

 

I agree that is silly but he definitely could have half if not more of those 1 yard tds Gu’s Edwards gets.  Or extra td passes if a receiver doesn’t get tackled at the one. 
 

honestly, it’s all pretty stupid but it makes for good debate during the week. Most NFL mvps rarely win the SB the year they won the award anyways.

[Captain Hindsight]

39 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Yeah I agree with some of your points but Mahomes would be awesome here. He’d kill to  have our receiving core. 
 

Lamar has also never played with close to a receiver like Diggs. I think him and Hurts would be good in our offense as well, though it would be way different. Agree on Tua and Purdy. I think Allen is better than Burrow but Diggs, Kincaid, and Cook are very good weapons in their own right if not as good as Cincy’s WRs (though I’d rather have Cook than the woman puncher Mixon).

He has OBJ this year! Beckham has 34 catches for 532 yards. Gabe Davis for comparison has 43 catches for 752 yards.

 

Lamar shouldn't be MVP. He is having a good year, but not an MVP season. Josh has more passing TDs than Lamar has total. Josh also has an absurd 13 rushing TDs to Lamar's 5. 

 

I'd argue that Allen, Mccaffrey, Hill, TJ Watt all have better cases than Lamar. JMO

 

 

[HappyDays]

19 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

but if the situations were reversed, you be screaming for Allen to be the mvp over Lamar because he is the qb of the number 1 seed who’s team never trails.

 

No I wouldn't. This is just something you decided to say. If Allen had 16 less TDs on the year we would be like 5-10 right now. That's the point. There is no universe where Allen scores 24 TDs and the Bills are the #1 seed. We'd all be looking ahead at the draft by now and wondering if Allen has completely lost his abilities.

 

19 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I think the Ravens have 7 wins of double digits against winning teams this year (something like that). So they have a lot of Dallas games where Allen didn’t have to do anything.   

 

So to be clear, your argument is that a QB who "didn't have to do anything" in a lot of his games is the MVP? So if the Bills had had 13 games up to this point like the Cowboys game, Allen would deserve to be MVP simply by virtue of our team's record? You're all over the place.

 

By the way, if you're going to use PFF's rating of our OL as a testament to Allen's supporting cast, you should probably point out that they have the Ravens OL slotted one spot higher, and more importantly that their QB rankings this year have Allen #1 and Lamar #5.

 

Edited December 29, 2023 by HappyDays

[Patrick Duffy]

1 hour ago, finn said:

I don't think Allen is playing with a poor offense, but I don't think it's anything special compared to other teams in the top half of the league. Take the O-line. One of the reasons we all take PFF grades with a grain of salt is that they don't take into account all relevant factors, such as the QB's escability. What percentage of pass drops do we see Allen dodge missed blocks instead of taking a sack? It's so normal, we don't even notice anymore. Drop back, dodge a whiffed block, throw. Rinse and repeat. Put any but a small handful of other QBs back there and watch the PFF grades plummet.

 

I grant you that Cook is a real weapon, but Murray, Ty Johnson, Davis, Shakir, Knox, Sherfield, and Harty are all no more than above average. Diggs is the only "A" player besides Allen. Kincaid? A nice player with excellent potential. So, yeah, I would say Allen deserves MVP because he does more with less than any of his competitors.

 

Put it this way: Allen would do better than Mahomes if Allen played in KC, better than Lamar in Baltimore, Burrow in Cincinnati, Purdy in SF, Hurts in Philly, Prescott in Dallas, and certainly Tua in Miami. Flip it around and the opposite is true: None of these QBs would do as well as Allen has with the Buffalo roster. 

 

I agree with the point you're making here. Just to add pertaining to the bold, at times Allen had a clean pocket and still took off so don't know if that would help or hurt if were doing escapability?

[dma0034]

Does anyone know how many 1 yard TDs Allen has? 

 

 

I would say my biggest argument for Allen is how he's lost:

 

Jets game was on him but he still tied it late but failed to do anything on his one drive in OT

 

Jags game: scores late to put it at 1 possession game. Jags score on a long TD to go up two scores. Allen scores in 45 seconds. Bills can't recover the onside kick

 

Pats game: Allen gets the lead with less than 2 minutes left. Pats win

 

Bengals: Allen scores with about 5 minutes left to cut lead to 6 points. Bills Defense doesn't get stop and Bengals run out the clock

 

Broncos: Allen scores with less than 2 minutes left to take lead. Broncos score and win game on final play

 

Eagles: Allen takes lead with less than 2 minutes left. Eagles score a FG to tie. Allen brings his team down and kicks a FG. Bills defense fails to stop Eagles and they score

 

 

 

Has Allen been stopped late in the game when the game has been on the line? Only against the Jets. Bille defense has let him down in all games except Giants and Bucs (and almost let him down against the Bucs). If that's not MVP I don't know what is

[C.Biscuit97]

3 minutes ago, zow2 said:

I think Lamar gets more help from his defense, running game and special teams for wins.  If Allen ends the season with two really good games, and no turnovers,,,and the Bills finish 11-6 I think he should get it for sure.  If not Josh, I'd say McCaffrey or Tyreek... I just would not automatically give it to Lamar based on team record.  He has the same number of TD's as Howell, who is now benched so Sam won't be able to keep up any longer lol

The Ravens give up 13 less yards/ game than us, 4 more sacks, and 2 less points/ game.  
 

additionally, they only have 2 more takeaways (26-24).  But the reason they are 12-3 and we are 9-6 is they are a +10 while we are even. So to the people who favor Jackson, that and the losses, are the biggest case against Allen. 

[finn]

38 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

https://mvpvoting.wordpress.com/ap-voters/
 

From 2020, nfl hates change so like expect a lot of the same people. 

Most NFL pundits just repeat conventional wisdom, which is fine for a fan board like this but pretty appalling when you're being paid for your insights. "One thing for sure: No one wants to see the Bills in the playoffs." How many times have you read that in recent weeks? Or the literally inevitable "turnover" caveat to any praise for Allen?

 

I just hope the MVP voters aren't so lazy or sheep-like. 

[C.Biscuit97]

7 minutes ago, Captain Hindsight said:

He has OBJ this year! Beckham has 34 catches for 532 yards. Gabe Davis for comparison has 43 catches for 752 yards.

 

Lamar shouldn't be MVP. He is having a good year, but not an MVP season. Josh has more passing TDs than Lamar has total. Josh also has an absurd 13 rushing TDs to Lamar's 5. 

 

I'd argue that Allen, Mccaffrey, Hill, TJ Watt all have better cases than Lamar. JMO

 

 

Come on Captain. Read what you just posted. OBJ isn’t even as good as Davis. He’s a possession receiver who was in major decline and is coming off his 2nd major knee injury. I’d rather have better than both but in 2023, Davis is a better player than OBJ.

 

also, do more stat pad when they up double digits or when they are trailing? The Ravens never really are losing this year. They dominate games from the opening kickoff and normally cruise to victories.

9 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

No I wouldn't. This is just something you decided to say. If Allen had 16 less TDs on the year we would be like 5-10 right now. That's the point. There is no universe where Allen scores 24 TDs and the Bills are the #1 seed. We'd all be looking ahead at the draft by now and wondering if Allen has completely lost his abilities.

 

 

So to be clear, your argument is that a QB who "didn't have to do anything" in a lot of his games is the QB? So if the Bills had had 13 games up to this point like the Cowboys game, Allen would deserve to be MVP simply by virtue of our team's record? You're all over the place.

 

By the way, if you're going to use PFF's rating of our OL as a testament to Allen's supporting cast, you should probably point out that they have the Ravens OL slotted one spot higher, and more importantly that their QB rankings this year have Allen #1 and Lamar #5.

Well you’re not being honest. Because 99% of fans here, myself included, would be losing our minds if Allen wasn’t the MVP favorite if we were the number 1 seed.  Like Allen shouldn’t get penalized for the Dallas game because his team killed those frauds and he didn’t have to do anything,.

 

and this isn’t a gotcha you moment. Ravens have a slightly better o line and defense. We have better offensive weapons. It’s very close. I do think them being +10 in turnovers while we are 0 (with only 2 less takeaways) is significant to wins 

[finn]

5 minutes ago, Patrick Duffy said:

 

I agree with the point you're making here. Just to add pertaining to the bold, at times Allen had a clean pocket and still took off so don't know if that would help or hurt if were doing escapability?

Can hardly blame him for taking off with Spencer Brown as his bodyguard. That aside, I would imagine quitting a clean pocket wouldn't count toward escapability.

 

I'd like to see if there's a correlation between QB mobility--evidenced by rushing yards, for instance--and sacks allowed. I believe Baltimore and Buffalo are #1 and 2 in sacks allowed, so there might be a connection.  

[Warcodered]

14 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

So to be clear, your argument is that a QB who "didn't have to do anything" in a lot of his games is the QB? So if the Bills had had 13 games up to this point like the Cowboys game, Allen would deserve to be MVP simply by virtue of our team's record? You're all over the place.

 

By the way, if you're going to use PFF's rating of our OL as a testament to Allen's supporting cast, you should probably point out that they have the Ravens OL slotted one spot higher, and more importantly that their QB rankings this year have Allen #1 and Lamar #5.

Yeah if we'd had 13 games like that Allen wouldn't be the MVP candidate on our team it'd be Cook or the O-line.

[FireChans]

10 minutes ago, dma0034 said:

Does anyone know how many 1 yard TDs Allen has? 

 

 

I would say my biggest argument for Allen is how he's lost:

 

Jets game was on him but he still tied it late but failed to do anything on his one drive in OT

 

Jags game: scores late to put it at 1 possession game. Jags score on a long TD to go up two scores. Allen scores in 45 seconds. Bills can't recover the onside kick

 

Pats game: Allen gets the lead with less than 2 minutes left. Pats win

 

Bengals: Allen scores with about 5 minutes left to cut lead to 6 points. Bills Defense doesn't get stop and Bengals run out the clock

 

Broncos: Allen scores with less than 2 minutes left to take lead. Broncos score and win game on final play

 

Eagles: Allen takes lead with less than 2 minutes left. Eagles score a FG to tie. Allen brings his team down and kicks a FG. Bills defense fails to stop Eagles and they score

 

 

 

Has Allen been stopped late in the game when the game has been on the line? Only against the Jets. Bille defense has let him down in all games except Giants and Bucs (and almost let him down against the Bucs). If that's not MVP I don't know what is

The Jets game and Broncos game are both games Allen single-handedly put us in serious danger of losing, and imo hurt his case far more than they help him.

[C.Biscuit97]

13 minutes ago, Patrick Duffy said:

 

I agree with the point you're making here. Just to add pertaining to the bold, at times Allen had a clean pocket and still took off so don't know if that would help or hurt if were doing escapability?

Won’t this apply to Jackson as well? Also, for both Jackson and Allen, because they are elite playmakers, they both can hurt their o lines by taking some negative plays as well. 
 

I never played oline (skill player 😎) and it bores me. But it is so important and everyone seems to think the Bills oline has taken a huge step forward this year which is awesome. 

[FireChans]

33 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I would rather have the 40 TDs Allen has given us compared to the 24 TDs Lamar has had. The thing about the Bills is that Allen's TDs can't have been scored by anyone else. He's responsible for 85.1% of our TDs scored versus Lamar who's responsible for 54.5% of theirs.

 

Our weapons may be a little better on the whole, although considering Diggs has not been close to elite for the past 8 weeks or so that is not a gimme. But either way the discrepancy between 40 TDs and 24 TDs is not because of the offensive supporting cast. It's because of the QBs.

 

I find it weird that Lamar's MVP campaign has suddenly risen so high after the 49ers game. Did people actually watch that game? He started the game by running backwards for 20 yards and giving up a dumb safety. The next several drives he missed a bunch of passes including a couple on 3rd down that ended drives. If the 49ers offense had done what they usually do it would have been a blowout at halftime. Instead the Ravens defense dominated the game and gave Lamar more than enough time to settle in.

 

I get that the actual MVP award has become a complete joke driven by narratives more than facts. But I'd like to think that as fans we can be smarter than that.

He got tripped by the ref for the safety. Talk about “watching the games” lol.

[HappyDays]

13 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

The Ravens give up 13 less yards/ game than us, 4 more sacks, and 2 less points/ game.  
 

additionally, they only have 2 more takeaways (26-24).  But the reason they are 12-3 and we are 9-6 is they are a +10 while we are even. So to the people who favor Jackson, that and the losses, are the biggest case against Allen. 

 

The Ravens defense is ranked 2nd by DVOA. Ours is ranked 12th. Their special teams is ranked 4th. Ours is ranked 18th. It is not debatable that the other two phases of the game have heavily favored Lamar over Allen.

 

The only reason the Bills are even in a playoff spot right now is because Allen had clutch game winning drives against the Giants, Chiefs, and Chargers. He also had clutch game winning drives against the Pats, Broncos, and Eagles, but unfortunately...

[CincyBillsFan]

31 minutes ago, zow2 said:

The most absurd reason for Lamar being MVP and not Allen that I heard this week on TV...  "Lamar would have 45 TD's by now if he called him own number by the goal line like Allen does".   Ok, so now we're going to award the MVP based on reasoning like that for things that never happened?

 

 

That would be true for Hurts who scores a lot of 1 yard tush push TD's but I believe more then half of Allen's rushing TD's were scored from more then 5 yards out.

 

 

[dma0034]

2 minutes ago, FireChans said:

The Jets game and Broncos game are both games Allen single-handedly put us in serious danger of losing, and imo hurt his case far more than they help him.

 

I mean... every QB has bad games. I think the Jets game was his worst but seriously the Broncos? He hits Gabe Davis who can't catch it and it gets picked. The pick before the half was bad but the entire team played sloppy. 

 

This isn't even including drops... which is the excuse everyone makes about Mahomes being average thos year

[HappyDays]

Just now, FireChans said:

He got tripped by the ref for the safety. Talk about “watching the games” lol.

 

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. You can't run straight backwards for 20 yards from your own 20 and expect things to turn out well. That's the kind of play Allen had to get out of his system after his first couple years. I don't blame the official there at all.

[CincyBillsFan]

Just now, HappyDays said:

 

The Ravens defense is ranked 2nd by DVOA. Ours is ranked 12th. Their special teams is ranked 4th. Ours is ranked 18th. It is not debatable that the other two phases of the game have heavily favored Lamar over Allen.

 

The only reason the Bills are even in a playoff spot right now is because Allen had clutch game winning drives against the Giants, Chiefs, and Chargers. He also had clutch game winning drives against the Pats, Broncos, and Eagles, but unfortunately...

Yep and those short fields against SF brought to the Ravens by their D certainly helped Jackson's TD totals. 

 

 

[FireChans]

Just now, dma0034 said:

 

I mean... every QB has bad games. I think the Jets game was his worst but seriously the Broncos? He hits Gabe Davis who can't catch it and it gets picked. The pick before the half was bad but the entire team played sloppy. 

 

This isn't even including drops... which is the excuse everyone makes about Mahomes being average thos year

He had 3 turnovers. Sure, some bad luck involved.

 

If your QB has 3 TO’s and you lose, your QB is probably a big reason why you lost.

 

This is a fact everywhere but Bills land.

1 minute ago, HappyDays said:

 

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. You can't run straight backwards for 20 yards from your own 20 and expect things to turn out well. That's the kind of play Allen had to get out of his system after his first couple years. I don't blame the official there at all.

Allen still runs backward and takes horrific sacks trying to throw sideways lol.
 

Probably not the year to talk about Allen’s “improved” decision making tbh.

[C.Biscuit97]

3 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

The Ravens defense is ranked 2nd by DVOA. Ours is ranked 12th. Their special teams is ranked 4th. Ours is ranked 18th. It is not debatable that the other two phases of the game have heavily favored Lamar over Allen.

 

The only reason the Bills are even in a playoff spot right now is because Allen had clutch game winning drives against the Giants, Chiefs, and Chargers. He also had clutch game winning drives against the Pats, Broncos, and Eagles, but unfortunately...

So actual numbers don’t matter. Just some random formula made up by nerds? Gotcha. Digging deep . 👍

 

and you’re making my point for Lamar for me (and I don’t even think he should win). If Allen and the offense didn’t suck for halves of games against the Giants, Chiefs, chargers, Pats, and Broncos, they won’t need a “game winning drive.” The defense was the only reason those game were winnable. The Ravens have stomped opponents from the jump and their defense has blown leads in their 3 losses. 
 

I think the Bills are a really good team that are getting hot at the right time. But there were far too many inconsistent moments this year to have the MVP. 

[mrags]

6 minutes ago, FireChans said:

He got tripped by the ref for the safety. Talk about “watching the games” lol.

So his awareness was so bad he tripped over a ref? 

Just now, mrags said:

So his awareness was so bad he tripped over a ref? 

And people complain about Allen’s ints. Jeesh 

[C.Biscuit97]

4 minutes ago, dma0034 said:

 

I mean... every QB has bad games. I think the Jets game was his worst but seriously the Broncos? He hits Gabe Davis who can't catch it and it gets picked. The pick before the half was bad but the entire team played sloppy. 

 

This isn't even including drops... which is the excuse everyone makes about Mahomes being average thos year

Allen and the offense were awful in the game. Our defense was the  only reason that game wasn’t over at halftime (and the Broncos garbage offense). 

[CincyBillsFan]

Just now, HappyDays said:

 

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. You can't run straight backwards for 20 yards from your own 20 and expect things to turn out well. That's the kind of play Allen had to get out of his system after his first couple years. I don't blame the official there at all.

Agree and that was one of the biggest criticisms of Allen his first two seasons in the NFL. All we heard is how terrible it was that Allen kept dropping back in a futile effort to avoid a sack. A lot of folks on 2BD called that out as an example of Allen playing "hero ball" to the detriment of the team.  Jackson does the exact same thing in his 6th year and all people can do is blame the ref.  I wonder if the ref was caught by surprise that Jackson would do something as foolish and reckless as falling back 20 yards into his own end zone?

 

 

[C.Biscuit97]

6 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Yep and those short fields against SF brought to the Ravens by their D certainly helped Jackson's TD totals. 

 

 

Their defense has 2 more takeaways than us all year. 2. 

[HappyDays]

5 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Allen still runs backward and takes horrific sacks trying to throw sideways lol.

 

Allen has the 2nd lowest sack % in the entire NFL out of 33 qualifying QBs.

 

You guys gotta actually look at things before posting. Allen has been elite at avoiding sacks this year, and let's be honest his offensive has been improved but it is not stellar.

[C.Biscuit97]

7 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. You can't run straight backwards for 20 yards from your own 20 and expect things to turn out well. That's the kind of play Allen had to get out of his system after his first couple years. I don't blame the official there at all.

And they overcame those and smoked the “best” team on the road. 

[FireChans]

2 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

So actual numbers don’t matter. Just some random formula made up by nerds? Gotcha. Digging deep . 👍

 

and you’re making my point for Lamar for me (and I don’t even think he should win). If Allen and the offense didn’t suck for halves of games against the Giants, Chiefs, chargers, Pats, and Broncos, they won’t need a “game winning drive.” The defense was the only reason those game were winnable. The Ravens have stomped opponents from the jump and their defense has blown leads in their 3 losses. 
 

I think the Bills are a really good team that are getting hot at the right time. But there were far too many inconsistent moments this year to have the MVP. 

It’s very funny that Allen’s 2 TD, 3 TO performance plus a game-winning drive (and a subsequent loss) against the Broncos is somehow considered better than Lamar just cruising to a victory with 2 TD’s against the best team in the NFC.

Just now, HappyDays said:

 

Allen has the 2nd lowest sack % in the entire NFL out of 33 qualifying QBs.

 

You guys gotta actually look at things before posting. Allen has been elite at avoiding sacks this year, and let's be honest his offensive has been improved but it is not stellar.

I watch the games. You somehow missed the ref tripping a QB while “watching the games” lol.

 

Josh spent a quarter of the season running out of clean pockets like Kenny Pickett this year. Short term memory.

[CincyBillsFan]

1 minute ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Their defense has 2 more takeaways than us all year. 2. 

But the 49's game was what has propelled Jackson into the lead with respect to MVP.  And for the record you would have to know where the takeaways happened between the two teams to better see which QB benefited the most from the TO. 

 

 

[FireChans]

4 minutes ago, mrags said:

So his awareness was so bad he tripped over a ref? 

And people complain about Allen’s ints. Jeesh 

Refs don’t play defense.

[C.Biscuit97]

Just now, HappyDays said:

 

Allen has the 2nd lowest sack % in the entire NFL out of 33 qualifying QBs.

 

You guys gotta actually look at things before posting. Allen has been elite at avoiding sacks this year, and let's be honest his offensive has been improved but it is not stellar.

Haha, why can’t you give any credit to other guys on the team? Allen is absolutely amazing. But maybe Torrence was a great pick. Dawkins and Brown improved a ton. We finally got cook the ball and he showed why he was a 2nd round pick.

 

these guys help Allen as well. Allen isn’t Jesus (though he is very good). You act like he’s on the Panthers or playing on NE’s offense. 

[FireChans]

Just now, CincyBillsFan said:

But the 49's game was what has propelled Jackson into the lead with respect to MVP.  And for the record you would have to know where the takeaways happened between the two teams to better see which QB benefited the most from the TO. 

 

 

Lamar jumping was also because Brock (the previous leader) melted down. 

[C.Biscuit97]

Just now, CincyBillsFan said:

But the 49's game was what has propelled Jackson into the lead with respect to MVP.  And for the record you would have to know where the takeaways happened between the two teams to better see which QB benefited the most from the TO. 

 

 

Jackson has been in the top 3 mvp odds for most of the year. That game made him the favorite. 

[FireChans]

Just now, C.Biscuit97 said:

Haha, why can’t you give any credit to other guys on the team? Allen is absolutely amazing. But maybe Torrence was a great pick. Dawkins and Brown improved a ton. We finally got cook the ball and he showed why he was a 2nd round pick.

 

these guys help Allen as well. Allen isn’t Jesus (though he is very good). You act like he’s on the Panthers or playing on NE’s offense. 

these Stans watched the Bills run the ball down the Cowboys throat and Allen barely play, and still think we’d be like 0-17 with Kirk Cousins.