12 of 32 2020 5th yr options picked up. Bills 100% since 2017

[Saint Doug]

7 minutes ago, Matt_In_NH said:

Agreed, I am just saying picking up 5th year options should not be the measuring stick.  It is one piece of information.

Correct. It’s really unclear how picking up a 5th year contract is a sign of successful drafting. It very well could be a sign of not being able to cut your loses or a poor use of available salary cap. Sometimes it’s cheaper to sign these players for less than the going rate of the 5th year option. 

[ngbills]

4 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

You can go around and around on this but the fact remains that if Josh Allen didn’t turn into the QB he’s become EVERYTHING else about this team changes and it’s pretty likely that Beane would be gone. That’s not intended in any way as Beane bashing, it’s just the simple truth. 

This is the reality. And outside of Allen we have still not drafted a significant player at a high value position. No evident future all pro WR, LT, Edge (maybe we Greg R so do?), CB. We are becoming one of the oldest teams in the league and lack young talent. 

[PBF81]

2 hours ago, CorkScrewHill said:

A GM is supposed to get players to get to the playoffs and position a team for a run. The best team does not always win in the playoffs as they are one and done games. When the Giants beat the undefeated Patriots the Giants weren’t the better team they just happened to get hot and a bit lucky. The Bills management has built a team that will compete for a while and hopefully they will go on one of those runs by avoiding key injuries, playing well, and getting a few lucky bounces along the way. I do agree with @GunnerBill that they have been lacking in the 2nd and 3 rd rounds but overall compared to their peers McBeane has done admirably in the drafting of players 

 

Playing well and losing is entirely different than your best players not showing up and otherwise playing like crap.  You know that.  Our D has been AWOL in the playoffs.  

[SoCal Deek]

1 minute ago, ngbills said:

This is the reality. And outside of Allen we have still not drafted a significant player at a high value position. No evident future all pro WR, LT, Edge (maybe we Greg R so do?), CB. We are becoming one of the oldest teams in the league and lack young talent. 

Thanks. I agree with all but the last sentence. The age thing is a bit of stretch. As was shown in the other thread, we’re talking about a matter of WEEKS older, not months or years. That could be just because of when player’s birthdays fall. (Somewhat kidding). However, you’re right when it comes to our drafting track record. At some point you’d think one of these guys, other than Allen, would become a household name. But not so far. 

[PBF81]

2 hours ago, HOUSE said:

Little cranky today huh ? 

 

Nah, rarely, just my usual non-narrative accepting self.  😉😁

[BADOLBILZ]

Of note:

 

Some of those declined options are very related to the fact that the players do not play premium positions.   

 

A player doesn't have to reach his potential by year 3 for a team to pick up his 5th year option..............but if he hasn't yet........the potential cap hit better be reasonable for that position.

 

[PBF81]

2 hours ago, Don Otreply said:

They go hand in hand, surprised someone of your “football IQ” doesn’t grasp such a basic concept…, 

 

Oh do they. 

 

Great, I'd absolutely love to hear your explanation of Diggs' playoff performance the past five playoff games, particularly against KC & Cincy.  

 

If you enjoy that enough I'm happy to throw in another couple of high draft high contact players to get your explanations for.  

 

Let's tackle them one at a time however.  

 

Curious, did you look into it before making your comment?  ... or did the words just start rolling out?  

 

We can recommend the discussion on "football IQ" once we mail that down.  Fair enough?  

 

I'll look for the ping.  🙂

 

 

Edited May 4, 2023 by PBF81

[Dopey]

4 hours ago, Matt_In_NH said:

I am not a Beane hater at all but not sure this is really a good measurement. Beane decides to pick them up or not.   A think of beanes picks we are only talking Edmunds and Oliver.   Both were somewhat questionable.  There is a lot of chatter on getting rid of Oliver’s guaranteed number this year.   Edmunds had his detractors also.   

I don't recall the Edmunds pick being questioned by draft pundits(not TBD). And he turned out to be a damn good pick. IMO, we couldn't afford to keep him, or he would still be here.

[Matt_In_NH]

7 minutes ago, Dopey said:

I don't recall the Edmunds pick being questioned by draft pundits(not TBD). And he turned out to be a damn good pick. IMO, we couldn't afford to keep him, or he would still be here.

we are talking decision to pick up 5th year option, not draft decision.

41 minutes ago, Saint Doug said:

Correct. It’s really unclear how picking up a 5th year contract is a sign of successful drafting. It very well could be a sign of not being able to cut your loses or a poor use of available salary cap. Sometimes it’s cheaper to sign these players for less than the going rate of the 5th year option. 

And sometimes GM's will err towards picking it up to justify they selection.  Same reason higher draft picks sometimes hang around longer than they should.

[Airseven]

Beane has nothing to show for this. Yes, it’s been stated time and again in his defense that his picks stick in the league. But his early picks especially haven’t excelled. Just because the Bears chose to pay Edmunds doesn’t mean he’s played to expectations.

[Punching Bag]

10 hours ago, Aussie Joe said:

Bit different to the Whaley years 

 

Helps when coaching staff is stable and cooperative with front office.

Some 1st round pick players did not want to be here and probably told front office such.

[BuffaloBill]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

100% correct. Beane has not had a 1st rounder bust. People can question whether Tremaine ever fulfilled his full potential and can ask the same with Ed but they are both, unquestionably, good NFL players. 

 

If only his record on day 2 was as good. I think Beane has been one of the best round 1 drafters and one of the best day 3 drafters. His day two record...

 

Harrison Phillips (never a starter and walked after 1 contract)

Cody Ford (never nailed a starting role and traded after 3 seasons)

Devin Singletary (starter but walked after 1 contract)

Dawson Knox (good starter, re-signed to a second contract)

AJ Epenesa (never been more than a rotational player going into contract year)

Zack Moss (traded away early in 3rd year)

Boogie Basham (still buried on the depth chart going into year 3)

Spencer Brown (starter who showed some flashes as a rookie, bad second season, going into vital 3rd year)

 

Won't breakdown Cook and Bernard as 1 year probably isn't sufficient to take a view but it's a poor record with Dawson Knox the one success story. 

 

 

It’s weird how much the Bills have missed on day 2. You would think in a list that long there would be at least one or two who pop out as really good players. Even Knox, who is the best among them, does not strike terror into the hearts of opposing teams.  He’s solid but not great.  I still hold out hope that Spencer Brown will come around.  

[Dopey]

31 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

Playing well and losing is entirely different than your best players not showing up and otherwise playing like crap.  You know that.  Our D has been AWOL in the playoffs.  

In Beane's time with the Bills we played in 8 playoff games. IMO, the offense crapped the bed vs. Houston in 2019, vs. the Chiefs in 2020, the Ravens in 2020(even though we won this game) and the Bengals this past season. That's 1/2 the playoff games. We are 4-4 in the playoffs under Beane. Nothing to sneeze at. I don't think blaming the defense for our perceived playoff struggles is way to go here. The team as a whole has had it's share of blame to go around in the playoffs. 

[hondo in seattle]

The details are interesting, but the big picture is this...  The Bills spent 17 years of bouncing between mediocrity and horribleness before McD and Beane.  Now we're a perennial playoff contender.

 

We can dissect Beane's victories and failures all we want.  Some find it entertaining.  Once in a while, I do myself.  But it's like going to the Louvre and getting up close to some masterpiece and saying, "Well, that brushstroke is a little off!"   You've got to step back and take in the whole work of art.  

 

Nope, we haven't won a SB... yet.  And, yup, both Beane and McD have had some missteps along the way, as humans do.  But, brothers & sisters, we're in contention after long years of irrelevancy.  Do what you want but I'm enjoying the ride.  

[Ethan in Cleveland]

59 minutes ago, ngbills said:

This is the reality. And outside of Allen we have still not drafted a significant player at a high value position. No evident future all pro WR, LT, Edge (maybe we Greg R so do?), CB. We are becoming one of the oldest teams in the league and lack young talent. 

A bit unfair. He traded a first for the best WR in Bills history. 

I'm not the biggest Beane supporter but you can't cherry pick your critiques either. 

The team already has a very good LT and they had other needs to address. 

They have an All-Pro CB and had White not been injured no one would have wanted to draft another CB in the first round. 

[Punching Bag]

4 minutes ago, Dopey said:

In Beane's time with the Bills we played in 8 playoff games. IMO, the offense crapped the bed vs. Houston in 2019, vs. the Chiefs in 2020, the Ravens in 2020(even though we won this game) and the Bengals this past season. That's 1/2 the playoff games. We are 4-4 in the playoffs under Beane. Nothing to sneeze at. I don't think blaming the defense for our perceived playoff struggles is way to go here. The team as a whole has had it's share of blame to go around in the playoffs. 

 

In particular the defense has bailed out offense several times in playoffs.

In Ravens game (January 16, 2021) the defense kept Jackson bottled up most of game, a defense plan copied by other teams, before interception in endzone (Bills 17, Ravens 3)

In P*tsie game (January 15, 2022) defense repeatedly made plays until defense teeth pulled and they still made plays (Bills 47, P*tsies 17(

Yes we lost 5 playoff games but that happens in single elimination tournaments.

[PBF81]

18 minutes ago, Dopey said:

In Beane's time with the Bills we played in 8 playoff games. IMO, the offense crapped the bed vs. Houston in 2019, vs. the Chiefs in 2020, the Ravens in 2020(even though we won this game) and the Bengals this past season. That's 1/2 the playoff games. We are 4-4 in the playoffs under Beane. Nothing to sneeze at. I don't think blaming the defense for our perceived playoff struggles is way to go here. The team as a whole has had it's share of blame to go around in the playoffs. 

 

That's off of the original topic of contracts, but have you compared how our "#1" & "#2" defenses have played against defenses ranked notably lower than ours, and at times against the same opponents that we've played?  

 

 

2 minutes ago, Limeaid said:

In particular the defense has bailed out offense several times in playoffs.

 

Which times, specifically?  

[Dopey]

3 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

The details are interesting, but the big picture is this...  The Bills spent 17 years of bouncing between mediocrity and horribleness before McD and Beane.  Now we're a perennial playoff contender.

 

We can dissect Beane's victories and failures all we want.  Some find it entertaining.  Once in a while, I do myself.  But it's like going to the Louvre and getting up close to some masterpiece and saying, "Well, that brushstroke is a little off!"   You've got to step back and take in the whole work of art.  

 

Nope, we haven't won a SB... yet.  And, yup, both Beane and McD have had some missteps along the way, as humans do.  But, brothers & sisters, we're in contention after long years of irrelevancy.  Do what you want but I'm enjoying the ride.  

Amen. I actually stay away from TBD for a few days at a time. Not sure why the negative outweighs the positives here. When someone posts a positive thread, like Success tends to do, it gets dragged down into a negative thread that Success ends up trying to justify the positive vibes he has on the team. I appreciate the attempts by Success. I gave up a while ago. Maybe it's me, but posters like PBF81, recently came aboard, and it's mainly negative posts. I think most of them came over when that other site just shut down overnight. This place seems to have turned to the negative since then. 

4 minutes ago, Limeaid said:

 

In particular the defense has bailed out offense several times in playoffs.

In Ravens game (January 16, 2021) the defense kept Jackson bottled up most of game, a defense plan copied by other teams, before interception in endzone (Bills 17, Ravens 3)

In P*tsie game (January 15, 2022) defense repeatedly made plays until defense teeth pulled and they still made plays (Bills 47, P*tsies 17(

Yes we lost 5 playoff games but that happens in single elimination tournaments.

I only count 4 losses because in the 2017 loss to the Jags, Beane wasn't here yet. But, yep, I agree with you.

[CorkScrewHill]

58 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

Playing well and losing is entirely different than your best players not showing up and otherwise playing like crap.  You know that.  Our D has been AWOL in the playoffs.  

2017 - not a great team that outperformed expectations. D gave up 10 pts

2019 - in it to the end and without the phantom illegal block call probably win it. D only gave up 22 including overtime

2020 - let a mediocre team hang around in the Colts. D allowed 24 pts; D dominated Baltimore allowing only 3 pts; outclassed by the Chiefs

2021 - crushed the Patsies D only gave up 17 and they were playing backups fairly early on; should have won against the Chiefs but the D could not stop Mahomes

2022 - team was out of sorts for both games - I truly believe they were emotionally spent. Barely beat an overmatched Dolphins team and were no-shows against the Bengals.

 

Given this I think it is unfair to say the D does not show up in the playoffs with the exception of the last few minutes of 2021 and this year’s playoffs.

[Dopey]

5 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

That's off of the original topic of contracts, but have you compared how our "#1" & "#2" defenses have played against defenses ranked notably lower than ours, and at times against the same opponents that we've played?  

 

 

 

Which times, specifically?  

Understood, but I was replying to the following you wrote: "Our D has been AWOL in the playoffs."  This appears to be off of the original topic of contracts too. No?

 

Limeaid provided examples in his post. Read them. It's in English.