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The misuse of Cook and Hines was borderline criminal


Logic
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Anyone can see the issue with the offense is the trnches

 

what would a solid offense do that gets a push and gives Allen time?

 

WR, RBs and Dawson are actually fine in my opinion

 

yeah gabe drops a lot I’d get someone to compete with him maybe it was an off year - if he wants to get more $$$ go ahead

 

i don’t see an issue with our backs and skill players - the issue is offense and defensive linemen

 

beane had whiffed terrible on dline though so idk if you can trust him on that now

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Dorsey’s approach is too Josh centric and his personnel evaluation has been poor. The idea that this administration awarded Davis with the number 2 receiver targets and he produced 48 catches is laughable. Cook, Hines and Motor were relegated to a few check downs and otherwise absent from our passing attack. McKenzie was not involved in a way that used his skills. He was not creative and our offense became predictable.

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1 hour ago, Steptide said:

I saw this on Twitter last night. You think he can't figure it what to do with running backs? This is more concerning to me

 

 

What’s the down and distance on this play? Knox comes off the ball and is immediately open. He even turns toward Josh like he is expecting a quick pass. For whatever reason Allen passes him up.

 

I really think Allen has to be better. His physical traits alone should be good enough to get us to the playoffs every year but to make the Super Bowl he has to make the right decisions with the ball.

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57 minutes ago, Logic said:

Someone earlier mentioned a disconnect between Beane and the coaching staff with regard to use of personnel, and I think that hits the nail on the head pretty squarely.

Guys like Hines, Cook, and Shakir all had things to offer this offense -- and at times, these things were direly needed! -- and Dorsey just couldn't/wouldn't make it happen. And that's not even to mention the inability of Hodgins to get snaps on offense.

To have talent and speed like Hines and Cook, and to just NOT use it and have it sitting on your bench, shows a real lack of imagination and creativity and adaptability to personnel. It's very concerning.

    So much to unpack here.

    Starting with the overall conclusion, McD and Crew need to go.

     I’ve posted on here about watching Brady as an OC refuse to get the running game going even after Rhule would assure everyone in the previous weeks presser that they would run the ball next game and make it a priority. 
     Having that guy and Dorsey working together with Josh looked like the same thing here. Josh and co showed in the first few games they absolutely could play the quick hitter short game to perfection. In fact, posters were ruing the fact we WEREN’T attempting the long ball enough at the beginning of the season. 
    Josh looked like he was refusing to even look at the short option on so many plays. Did he have someone in his ear telling him how important the long ball was????  Brady?, Diggs? His own ego?  McD should have laid down the law and gotten them to take some of the pressure and wear and tear off of Josh. 
     McD’s message is fading and his “ Defensive prowess” is a bully’s prowess. It works well on the little guys but not on teams that aren’t afraid . He looks like a guy who is out of control with the effing Timeouts to kill good plays. And like a dope with no answers in the most critical moments.

    While I don’t have a love affair with our D line picks I have the sneaking hunch a different coaching staff could scheme/get more out of them that our current coaches.

     The RB situation is clearly malfeasance as stated above. It boggles the mind.

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2 hours ago, Logic said:

I know, I know, it's "everybody's fired up and venting on TSW" week. 

As I sit here this morning and read all of the talk of the Bills not surrounding Josh Allen with enough weapons, I'm getting irritated. Don't get me wrong, they could have used another good receiver because Davis and McKenzie didn't step up as hoped, and they obviously need OL reinforcements....BUT...

The Bills had two very speedy, potentially potent weapons on their offensive roster, and they didn't use them. I'm talking about James Cook and Nyheim Hines. 

All offseason, it was clearly a top priority to add a pass catching back with speed. They ultimately drafted one with a high pick AND traded draft capital for a second one. Both guys, Cook and Hines, were ultimately wasted in an un-creative offense that seemed to completely refuse to utilize their unique talents. 

Ok, so you want to send Diggs and Davis deep every play? Fine. But for an offense that supposedly "lacks weapons underneath" and lacks weapons in general, the inability and refusal to use Cook and Hines as pass catching threats, or to use their speed to stretch the defense horizontally, or to provide pre-snap eye candy that gives the defense a moment of pause...it's just outrageous. You lack talent in the slot? Fine. How about splitting Nyheim Hines into the slot and actually using him as a receiver, not just a never-thrown-to decoy? You're telling me Cook and Hines can't consistently win routes against linebackers?!

Cook, Hines, and heck, even throw Isaiah McKenzie in there. All of these guys have speed, quickness, and can turn a 3 yard play into a 30 yard play with their explosiveness. Even if Dorsey had done nothing else but use them constantly in pre-snap motion (I think we saw this ONE WEEK with Hines, and then never again) and the occasional jet sweep, there HAS to be some value in having fast running backs who can catch the ball well. How about some Texas routes? How about literally ANYTHING designed to get these guys open in space?

The thing that worries me going forward is that even if the Bills DO add more potent offensive weapons, Dorsey won't have the faintest clue how to use them. He certainly didn't seem to know how to use Cook or Hines. Putting up 10 points in the most important game of the year while explosive guys like Hines and Cook largely ride the pine? Unacceptable. Ridiculous. Unconscionable. Here's hoping Dorsey takes a good, long look in the mirror this offseason and comes back much improved next year.

Excellent.  For the weapons we do have, Dorsey doesn't seem to understand how to use them. I'm not going to rehash what you already fantastically covered regarding Cook and Hines, but people here will literally try and convince you that Cook is somehow a "bust" .  I don't know what this evaluation is based on because it's certainly not based on reality.  He averaged 5.7 YPC behind this not-so-great line...give me more of that "bust"!

 

Besides the underutilization of the RBs, the slot WR all but disappeared.  From what I heard, Josh asked for Beas to be brought back by name. Then, he's almost never used.  Whether it was Crowder, McK, Shakir, or Beas, the slot was non-existent this year. I just don't get it.  The slot was one of Josh's favorite targets in recent years and was often his go-to when he was forced to scramble out of the pocket.  This year was a huge departure from that.

 

I think everyone was onboard hiring a rookie OC because we all thought he would just be a carryover of Daboll and the offense wouldn't skip a beat.  As this season progressed, we found out that wasn't the case and things looked very different at times.

 

 

Whether it was abandoning the run all together it seemed at times, or just strange play calls given the down and distance, this was a big point of frustration to many Bills fans who didn't understand how Dorsey used the word "balance" when describing how he runs the offense when abandoning the run is anything but "balanced".

 

While many different factors can and do play into a QB throwing an INT, I don't think this can be ignored.  Does this happen if Dabs is still calling the offense?  While you can't say no with any certainty, you have to examine why Josh had what is basically a "first to worst" fall here.  It seems Josh is prone to sometimes falling into a "hero ball" mindset, where he starts trying to force balls into tight coverages that he wouldn't normally try.  It also seems as though Dorsey's playcalling at times almost feeds some of Josh's bad habits.  Josh wasn't immune to this happening under Dabs, but it seems Dabs had the ability to reel Josh back in when he got in that state and get him to refocus.  I'm just not seeing that with Dorsey.

 

This isn't meant to be just a bash Dorsey post, especially when we're talking about a guy coming off his first season of play calling and since it appears Dorsey's job is safe from what's been said at this point, I only hope they can take a step back and look at what changed from previous years to this year, learn from that, and get back to plays Josh has had great success with vs putting him into situations where he either panics or feels the need to engage "hero mode".

Edited by Billz4ever
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2 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

I think we just need to burn another 2nd on the pass-catching RB position, we'll get it right eventually.

That and another defensive tackle.

 

 

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From afar it appeared it took Cook more than half the season to get mentally acclimated to the NFL. Hopefully, that's all behind him and he's now mentally prepared to become the back we are all hoping for. 

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8 minutes ago, skibum said:

I don't think the current Bills O line is up to the task of boosting the run/screen game. 

Part of being able to run an effective screen game is being able to sell it.  You would think that the few times we actually do try screens, they'd catch the defense off guard.  Nope, they don't fool anyone and don't ever gain much of anything.  

 

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3 hours ago, Logic said:

I know, I know, it's "everybody's fired up and venting on TSW" week. 

As I sit here this morning and read all of the talk of the Bills not surrounding Josh Allen with enough weapons, I'm getting irritated. Don't get me wrong, they could have used another good receiver because Davis and McKenzie didn't step up as hoped, and they obviously need OL reinforcements....BUT...

The Bills had two very speedy, potentially potent weapons on their offensive roster, and they didn't use them. I'm talking about James Cook and Nyheim Hines. 

All offseason, it was clearly a top priority to add a pass catching back with speed. They ultimately drafted one with a high pick AND traded draft capital for a second one. Both guys, Cook and Hines, were ultimately wasted in an un-creative offense that seemed to completely refuse to utilize their unique talents. 

Ok, so you want to send Diggs and Davis deep every play? Fine. But for an offense that supposedly "lacks weapons underneath" and lacks weapons in general, the inability and refusal to use Cook and Hines as pass catching threats, or to use their speed to stretch the defense horizontally, or to provide pre-snap eye candy that gives the defense a moment of pause...it's just outrageous. You lack talent in the slot? Fine. How about splitting Nyheim Hines into the slot and actually using him as a receiver, not just a never-thrown-to decoy? You're telling me Cook and Hines can't consistently win routes against linebackers?!

Cook, Hines, and heck, even throw Isaiah McKenzie in there. All of these guys have speed, quickness, and can turn a 3 yard play into a 30 yard play with their explosiveness. Even if Dorsey had done nothing else but use them constantly in pre-snap motion (I think we saw this ONE WEEK with Hines, and then never again) and the occasional jet sweep, there HAS to be some value in having fast running backs who can catch the ball well. How about some Texas routes? How about literally ANYTHING designed to get these guys open in space?

The thing that worries me going forward is that even if the Bills DO add more potent offensive weapons, Dorsey won't have the faintest clue how to use them. He certainly didn't seem to know how to use Cook or Hines. Putting up 10 points in the most important game of the year while explosive guys like Hines and Cook largely ride the pine? Unacceptable. Ridiculous. Unconscionable. Here's hoping Dorsey takes a good, long look in the mirror this offseason and comes back much improved next year.

 

Ive been banging this drum since last season.  This team does not seem to know how to develop rookies or even use them.  Either that or Beane is just the worst talen evaluator of all time and every rookie he drafted is simply just terrible.  I really dont buy that.  Look at Teller for example.  He sucked on the Bills.  He gets traded and becomes one of the best.  This staff cant develop rookies and lacks creative ways to design plays for them.

 

Id like to give Dorsey the benefit of the doubt here but I dont think he is it.  Our off season offensive plans were to get another TE and a pass catching back.  The pass catching back was still further in the plans when they traded for Hines who can be explosive as a pass catching back too.  Neither the idea of pass catching back nor TE was utilized the entire season.

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3 hours ago, Logic said:

I know, I know, it's "everybody's fired up and venting on TSW" week. 

As I sit here this morning and read all of the talk of the Bills not surrounding Josh Allen with enough weapons, I'm getting irritated. Don't get me wrong, they could have used another good receiver because Davis and McKenzie didn't step up as hoped, and they obviously need OL reinforcements....BUT...

The Bills had two very speedy, potentially potent weapons on their offensive roster, and they didn't use them. I'm talking about James Cook and Nyheim Hines. 

All offseason, it was clearly a top priority to add a pass catching back with speed. They ultimately drafted one with a high pick AND traded draft capital for a second one. Both guys, Cook and Hines, were ultimately wasted in an un-creative offense that seemed to completely refuse to utilize their unique talents. 

Ok, so you want to send Diggs and Davis deep every play? Fine. But for an offense that supposedly "lacks weapons underneath" and lacks weapons in general, the inability and refusal to use Cook and Hines as pass catching threats, or to use their speed to stretch the defense horizontally, or to provide pre-snap eye candy that gives the defense a moment of pause...it's just outrageous. You lack talent in the slot? Fine. How about splitting Nyheim Hines into the slot and actually using him as a receiver, not just a never-thrown-to decoy? You're telling me Cook and Hines can't consistently win routes against linebackers?!

Cook, Hines, and heck, even throw Isaiah McKenzie in there. All of these guys have speed, quickness, and can turn a 3 yard play into a 30 yard play with their explosiveness. Even if Dorsey had done nothing else but use them constantly in pre-snap motion (I think we saw this ONE WEEK with Hines, and then never again) and the occasional jet sweep, there HAS to be some value in having fast running backs who can catch the ball well. How about some Texas routes? How about literally ANYTHING designed to get these guys open in space?

The thing that worries me going forward is that even if the Bills DO add more potent offensive weapons, Dorsey won't have the faintest clue how to use them. He certainly didn't seem to know how to use Cook or Hines. Putting up 10 points in the most important game of the year while explosive guys like Hines and Cook largely ride the pine? Unacceptable. Ridiculous. Unconscionable. Here's hoping Dorsey takes a good, long look in the mirror this offseason and comes back much improved next year.

 

We sucked at creating mismatches, getting these guys in that situation would have been an excellent start in the right direction- fabulous point.

 

Also, priority #1AAAAAA this offseason.  Can we go out and find a "Screen Game Specialist" who can carefully show our Offensive players how to do those?

 

All I could think since they acquired Hines was the Chargers and Eckler.  Why can't we do cool stuff like those guys?

Edited by B-Large
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10 minutes ago, B-Large said:

 

We sucked at creating mismatches, getting these guys in that situation would have been an excellent start in the right direction- fabulous point.

 

Also, priority #1AAAAAA this offseason.  Can we go out and find a "Screen Game Specialist" who can carefully show our Offensive players how to do those?

 

All I could think since they acquired Hines was the Chargers and Eckler.  Why can't we do cool stuff like those guys?


Your lips to God's ears.

Two speedy, shifty running backs, and an offensive line who, for all their faults, are all very athletic and can move in space....and yet? No screen game.

The Bills haven't had a good, consistent screen game in YEARS. I last remember seeing quality running back screens under Chan Gailey. That's ridiculous.

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I can't stand the "surround Josh with weapons" mantra. Besides the OLine, the Bills have way than enough talent. As if other teams were loaded everywhere! Look at the Chiefs, they lost Hill but not a step. The Bills' offensive SCHEMES were bad all year. At first, I was good with hiring Dorsey as OC and also was willing to give him time. But that bad scheming is not experience lacking, he just doesn't have it. The offense is so vanilla.

 

Was it Burrows and Chase that whooped the Bills? No, it was the great schemes they used. They somehow had WRs mismatched all game, including Chase all alone for his TD. 

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Ken Dorsey didn’t know how to use them. His lack of creativity killed the offense. 

5 minutes ago, Jerome007 said:

I can't stand the "surround Josh with weapons" mantra. Besides the OLine, the Bills have way than enough talent. As if other teams were loaded everywhere! Look at the Chiefs, they lost Hill but not a step. The Bills' offensive SCHEMES were bad all year. At first, I was good with hiring Dorsey as OC and also was willing to give him time. But that bad scheming is not experience lacking, he just doesn't have it. The offense is so vanilla.

 

Was it Burrows and Chase that whooped the Bills? No, it was the great schemes they used. They somehow had WRs mismatched all game, including Chase all alone for his TD. 


I don’t understand it either lol. Like didn’t we just get into a shootout with KC last year with the same weapons. The problem is the OC lacks creativity. Doesn’t know how utilize his personnel. 

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19 minutes ago, Logic said:


Your lips to God's ears.

Two speedy, shifty running backs, and an offensive line who, for all their faults, are all very athletic and can move in space....and yet? No screen game.

The Bills haven't had a good, consistent screen game in YEARS. I last remember seeing quality running back screens under Chan Gailey. That's ridiculous.

 

The Bills offense felt lazy this year, and maybe its because we started so hot against some crumby teams- and were reading our press clippings as the annointed SB sweethearts.... but we never settled down and put the hard work into doing one or two things really well, and of those one or two things, that would work well in the playoffs when teams up their game.  We may have succumb to the "Let Josh be Josh" situation, and I think that's okay when your in a shootout on occasion, but when the margins get razor thin and the cream rises in the postseason, we needed more "Josh and offense that can beat you several different ways", and the coaching/ discipline to adapt the game plan as needed.

 

We committed to game plan the back half of the year that wasn't totally bright for a QB with an injured elbow.  I blame that on leadership, and frankly, that on McDermott.

 

Last I recall, CJ Spiller was featured in a competent screen game.  that seems like eons ago.  maybe I'm remembering that correctly... 

 

 

18 minutes ago, Jerome007 said:

I can't stand the "surround Josh with weapons" mantra. Besides the OLine, the Bills have way than enough talent. As if other teams were loaded everywhere! Look at the Chiefs, they lost Hill but not a step. The Bills' offensive SCHEMES were bad all year. At first, I was good with hiring Dorsey as OC and also was willing to give him time. But that bad scheming is not experience lacking, he just doesn't have it. The offense is so vanilla.

 

Was it Burrows and Chase that whooped the Bills? No, it was the great schemes they used. They somehow had WRs mismatched all game, including Chase all alone for his TD. 

 

If we're gonna go with "everybody go out for a pass" next season, a second capable receiver would be nice... lets hope we don't run that system again for god sake.

 

Andy Reid- pretty sure we'd have a ring if he was the Bills coach.  He'd make our current weapons look like a ***** arsenal.

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Cook, Hines, Shakir, Elam....it's one thing not using a player properly...it's another not using them at all.  These 4 should've had double the snaps they saw. This philosophy of slowly coddling a player into your system is complete BS.  Reed used Toney immediately. 

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6 hours ago, Logic said:

I know, I know, it's "everybody's fired up and venting on TSW" week. 

As I sit here this morning and read all of the talk of the Bills not surrounding Josh Allen with enough weapons, I'm getting irritated. Don't get me wrong, they could have used another good receiver because Davis and McKenzie didn't step up as hoped, and they obviously need OL reinforcements....BUT...

The Bills had two very speedy, potentially potent weapons on their offensive roster, and they didn't use them. I'm talking about James Cook and Nyheim Hines. 

All offseason, it was clearly a top priority to add a pass catching back with speed. They ultimately drafted one with a high pick AND traded draft capital for a second one. Both guys, Cook and Hines, were ultimately wasted in an un-creative offense that seemed to completely refuse to utilize their unique talents. 

Ok, so you want to send Diggs and Davis deep every play? Fine. But for an offense that supposedly "lacks weapons underneath" and lacks weapons in general, the inability and refusal to use Cook and Hines as pass catching threats, or to use their speed to stretch the defense horizontally, or to provide pre-snap eye candy that gives the defense a moment of pause...it's just outrageous. You lack talent in the slot? Fine. How about splitting Nyheim Hines into the slot and actually using him as a receiver, not just a never-thrown-to decoy? You're telling me Cook and Hines can't consistently win routes against linebackers?!

Cook, Hines, and heck, even throw Isaiah McKenzie in there. All of these guys have speed, quickness, and can turn a 3 yard play into a 30 yard play with their explosiveness. Even if Dorsey had done nothing else but use them constantly in pre-snap motion (I think we saw this ONE WEEK with Hines, and then never again) and the occasional jet sweep, there HAS to be some value in having fast running backs who can catch the ball well. How about some Texas routes? How about literally ANYTHING designed to get these guys open in space?

The thing that worries me going forward is that even if the Bills DO add more potent offensive weapons, Dorsey won't have the faintest clue how to use them. He certainly didn't seem to know how to use Cook or Hines. Putting up 10 points in the most important game of the year while explosive guys like Hines and Cook largely ride the pine? Unacceptable. Ridiculous. Unconscionable. Here's hoping Dorsey takes a good, long look in the mirror this offseason and comes back much improved next year.

Great article!! I agree 100% we Really missed Daboll!!

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Just too vanilla in both the passing and running game. Josh was rarely throwing to open receivers, that is a scheme issue. When the Bills were at their best in the run game, they were running gap scheme stuff. The offensive felt like entry level vanilla Nate Hackett garbage. 

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 I was saying this the last several weeks of the season. You have an offense dying for dynamic players outside of Diggs and Allen. You have a rookie RB that had (6) 20+ yard runs on only 89 carries. That was good enough for 14th among RBs, again on only 89 carries. The next lowest amount of carries by a RB that had 6 or more 20+ yard runs was Wilson Jr for Miami who had 176(Twice as many as Cook) carries and only 1 more long run. We needed to give him at least twice as many carries and should've used him more in the pass game.

 

 

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