NFLPA initiating investigation into Tua’s concussion protocol

[Nextmanup]

Just now, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

I’m getting a definite “You wanna send a guy with head trauma back into a professional football game, fine, but you roll in here with THAT attitude during the cover up…I won’t have it.” vibe here.  

When you put it that way, it does seem a little absurd. Though in fairness, that's just Adam Shefter's description of events; we don't know the full reasoning behind the firing yet, or do we?

 

Did the NFLPA have a P/C or make some statement release?

 

 

1 minute ago, stevewin said:

Appropriate for a scumbag

He strikes me as a really weird dude.

 

 

[newcam2012]

2 hours ago, Wayne Cubed said:

 

No I'm not being a dick but you are posting from the NFL website and it's all right there.

 

And to your second question, if you see the * by the Gross Motor Instability, that explains how they can go back in after appearing to have a "No Go" situation.

 

 

They have to prove it was caused neurologically instead of looking at the video and just assuming it is. If they can't prove it, aka he passes the concussion tests AND they prove he has an orthopedic issue, he can return to play. It also says on the checklist you posted about going to the locker room for a No Go:

 

 

That's the loophole and where the whole thing has fallen down. Tua may have been able to clear the cob webs and pass the concusion test. They may have then determined he did in fact have a back injury. So therefore he can return to play. I have no idea if they review the video in the locker room, or seek a second opinion. Nothing in the protocol seems to suggest they do.

What are you smoking? 

[Nextmanup]

2 hours ago, Augie said:

 

You would think “what happened?” would be pretty high on the list of boxes to check. “Look, we can show you!” Anyone who failed to share the extent of his injury and the resulting stumbles is just as guilty as the doctors. The “protocol” seems to be missing some common sense ingredients. 

Augie, maybe I'm wrong, but you seem to be taking the whole thing kind of at face value--trying to find a legitimate reason for the system breakdown.

 

I don't think you will find a legitimate reason.  The system broke down because the people directly involved in making the system work did not want to make the system work.

 

If the people involved in this are going to ignore the system, it doesn't matter what the system is.

 

That is what makes this whole thing so heinous in my eyes.   In 2022, NFL franchises are supposed to take head trauma very seriously and put the health of a player ahead of the game.

Clearly they did not--and in my opinion it wasn't through some systemic breakdown, but rather an intent to make the system break down.

 

Heinous!  

 

 

Edited October 1, 2022 by Nextmanup

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

Just now, Nextmanup said:

When you put it that way, it does seem a little absurd. Though in fairness, that's just Adam Shefter's description of events; we don't know the full reasoning behind the firing yet, or do we?

 

Did the NFLPA have a P/C or make some statement release?

 

 

I can understand wanting all the facts and whatnot, but I will not sit around being rational when there’s all this speculation afoot.

 

Seriously though, it’s only been 6 days since he hit his head and the first head has already rolled (no pun intended).  That speaks volumes about this situation.  

 

 

[stevewin]

2 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

He strikes me as a really weird dude.

 

i've been saying all along his whole quirky nerd schtick that the media and so many were lapping up was going to be tested once there was some actual adversity

[BRH]

It's pretty clear.  The only way he could have gotten back on the field on Sunday is if the team doctors, with "consultation" from the independent neurologist, concluded that his gross motor instability was not neurologically caused.

 

If the "consultation" from the neurologist is faulty, then that allows the team doctors, and by extension the coaches, to escape liability for putting him out there.

 

The only way you reach further than this guy is if he says (a) he was pressured by the team to clear him, or (b) the team did not provide him with accurate information about what happened on the field.

 

I happen to believe that (b) is probably true and (a) may be as well.  But that'll be for the investigators to find out.

Edited October 1, 2022 by BRH

[Scott7975]

This is not the first time Miami didnt follow protocol

 

Heres a snip: https://www.nfl.com/news/nfl-statement-on-matt-moore-concussion-protocol-review-0ap3000000779128

Quote

The Miami Dolphins were notified in a letter co-signed by Dr. Hunt Batjer, Co-Chair of the NFL Head, Neck & Spine Committee and Dr. Thom Mayer, Medical Director for the NFLPA, that the NFL-NFLPA review determined that the Protocol was not strictly followed. The letter further advised the Dolphins that they must engage their staff in a full review of the Protocol and conduct additional education, if necessary. The Dolphins were also advised that any future deviation from the Protocol may result in enhanced discipline, including monetary fines assessed against the Club.

 

Lets hope the NFL remembers this

[Perry Turtle]

37 minutes ago, BRH said:

It's pretty clear.  The only way he could have gotten back on the field on Sunday is if the team doctors, with "consultation" from the independent neurologist, concluded that his gross motor instability was not neurologically caused.

 

If the "consultation" from the neurologist is faulty, then that allows the team doctors, and by extension the coaches, to escape liability for putting him out there.

 

The only way you reach further than this guy is if he says (a) he was pressured by the team to clear him, or (b) the team did not provide him with accurate information about what happened on the field.

 

I happen to believe that (b) is probably true and (a) may be as well.  But that'll be for the investigators to find out.

Not really, the independent neurologist is a consultant.  If he says Tua is out, he's out.  But is he says Tua is okay, there are the team medical and coaching staffs who can say Tua's not going in.

 

Nothing stops the medical staff and coaching staff from sidelining Tua after the consultant clears him.

 

There is still accountability here.  You heard this in John Harbaugh's response to the situation.  You get the feeling that an experienced NFL coach would trust his own eyes of the hit on Sunday, and make the decision to bench his QB, regardless of the subjective opinion of the consultant.

 

Firing the consultant does not absolve the others who had decision making authority concerning Tua's return.

 

 

 

 

[Wayne Cubed]

1 hour ago, newcam2012 said:

What are you smoking? 

It’s literally on the NFL site, I’m not smoking anything. Feel free to read it and smoke, if you like. Not to mention @Warcodered posted a video of a doctor explaining the same exact thing. But sure, disagree all you like.

Edited October 1, 2022 by Wayne Cubed

[syhuang]

 

 

[Nextmanup]

Great, sounds like the NFLPA has already thrown in the towel on this one and is content with a change to the rule.

 

I worried that their "investigation" would be half-assed.

 

Welp, don't look for any more heads to roll!

And that doctor really was the scapegoat! 

 

Thoroughly dissatisfying outcome! 

 

 

[Warcodered]

6 minutes ago, syhuang said:

 

 

Sounds like they're looking at that loophole that the Dolphins dove headfirst into with only 3 feet of water on.

[newcam2012]

6 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

Sounds like they're looking at that loophole that the Dolphins dove headfirst into with only 3 feet of water on.

Yep! Since the inception of concussion protocols show me a similar occurrence to the Tua situation. I can't think of one. Player clearly hit his head and suffers undeniable gross motor skills. Less than 30 minutes later he's playing with a "back injury." WTF! 

Edited October 1, 2022 by newcam2012

[The Wiz]

15 minutes ago, syhuang said:

 

 

And this is the NFL response to washing their hands of the rest of the investigation. 

[jethro_tull]

from what i understand there is nothing wrong with the protocol because it includes "visual symptoms" to determine a concussion.  

Tua clearly had visual symptoms after the Milano hit.  

[jethro_tull]

If I were Tua I would get a lawyer pronto and not take another snap until I was thoroughly evaluated by independent neurologists and doctors. 

If his ability is at all compromised by the Dolphin's negligence that could mean the end of his career or at least the beginning of the end.  The Dolphin's would be liable for this.  Playing again would greatly affect his case against them.  

 

[The Wiz]

7 minutes ago, jethro_tull said:

from what i understand there is nothing wrong with the protocol because it includes "visual symptoms" to determine a concussion.  

Tua clearly had visual symptoms after the Milano hit.  

The problem is they said they don't use video replay as a source in their report so the doctor could just as easily say they didn't see them when they were walking off the field and no video evidence was given to them creating the loophole. 

[Warcodered]

 

[jethro_tull]

1 minute ago, The Wiz said:

The problem is they said they don't use video replay as a source in their report so the doctor could just as easily say they didn't see them when they were walking off the field and no video evidence was given to them creating the loophole. 

understood but pretty much everyone else watching the game saw him unstable and fall to the turf- twice.  

you get knocked on your head and can't stand up you have a concussion- and that is what the protocol does in part, determine if he has a concussion.  

you have a concussion you are out- period.  

[Scott7975]

31 minutes ago, syhuang said:

 

 

 

This absolutely needs to happen.  Just please dont leave the call with the referee.  I can already see QBs being taken out of a game because they tripped on a billdo or something and it was misconscrued.  It needs to happen but DONT LEAVE GREY AREAS NFL!!

17 minutes ago, jethro_tull said:

from what i understand there is nothing wrong with the protocol because it includes "visual symptoms" to determine a concussion.  

Tua clearly had visual symptoms after the Milano hit.  

 

Except for the loop hole that allows them to call it a back injury and put the player back on the field.  

8 minutes ago, The Wiz said:

The problem is they said they don't use video replay as a source in their report so the doctor could just as easily say they didn't see them when they were walking off the field and no video evidence was given to them creating the loophole. 

 

They do use it during the sideline tent evaluation.  In fact its mandatory.  Somehow that doesnt apply if they get taken straight to the locker room though.

[jethro_tull]

12 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

This absolutely needs to happen.  Just please dont leave the call with the referee.  I can already see QBs being taken out of a game because they tripped on a billdo or something and it was misconscrued.  It needs to happen but DONT LEAVE GREY AREAS NFL!!

 

Except for the loop hole that allows them to call it a back injury and put the player back on the field.  

 

They do use it during the sideline tent evaluation.  In fact its mandatory.  Somehow that doesnt apply if they get taken straight to the locker room though.

A back injury that causes neurological symptoms like being unable to stand up is just as serious as a concussion if not more so. 

they have no defense.  

[Scott7975]

11 minutes ago, jethro_tull said:

A back injury that causes neurological symptoms like being unable to stand up is just as serious as a concussion if not more so. 

they have no defense.  

 

Oh I totally agree on that. 

[syhuang]

 

Quote

The updated protocols will essentially close the loophole that allowed Tagovailoa to return to the field against the Bills, eliminating any subjectivity about the cause of a player's instability and simply ruling the player out. The league said Wednesday it believes the protocols were followed; under the updated protocols, doctors will not be in position to make a judgment on why a player was unstable.

 

[stevewin]

40 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

This absolutely needs to happen.  Just please dont leave the call with the referee.  I can already see QBs being taken out of a game because they tripped on a billdo or something and it was misconscrued.  It needs to happen but DONT LEAVE GREY AREAS NFL!!

 

I for one am OK with opposing QB's being taken out of a game for tripping over a Billdo

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/34697326/the-details-dolphins-tua-tagovailoa-injury-next
 

What we know about the injury to Dolphins QB Tua Tagovailoa, and what's next

[Scott7975]

Looks like Dolphins are already saying Bridgewater for week 5.  Now they take it seriously 🙄

 

Or it could just be an assumption.  I have no idea who that guy is.

 

 

 

Edited October 2, 2022 by Scott7975

[Scott7975]

19 minutes ago, SlimShady'sSpaceForce said:

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/34697326/the-details-dolphins-tua-tagovailoa-injury-next
 

What we know about the injury to Dolphins QB Tua Tagovailoa, and what's next

 

Quote

Sills said Friday that Tagovailoa was checked for concussion symptoms every day this week, including Thursday.

 

Again... if they were confident in their diagnosis on the field then why would they check him every day for concussion symptoms?  If they weren't confident in the diagnosis to the point that they felt they should check him every day including game day morning then Tua never should have been put back on that field.

[Buffalo Bills Fan]

13 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

 

Again... if they were confident in their diagnosis on the field then why would they check him every day for concussion symptoms?  If they weren't confident in the diagnosis to the point that they felt they should check him every day including game day morning then Tua never should have been put back on that field.

 

Way to short to put Tua back on field. Should be a week guaranteed out and with testing after that.

 

NFL need to fix it rules as well to make "Sure" thing's go well with the player with lots of testing.  Dolphins did horrible in all this. Lots around awful in all of this.

Edited October 2, 2022 by Buffalo Bills Fan

[UKBillFan]

The question should be asked why did Miami take advantage of the loophole to put Tua back on the field rather than using their own judgement, with evidence clearly showing no back injury?

[syhuang]

17 minutes ago, Buffalo Bills Fan said:

 

Way to short to put Tua back on field. Should be a week guaranteed out and with testing after that.

 

NFL need to fix it rules as well to make "Sure" thing's go well with the player with lots of testing.  Dolphins did horrible in all this. Lots around awful in all of this.

NFL and NFLPA just closed this loophole 

 

 

[WyoAZBillfan]

Seems like dolphins coach learned well from Shanahan and how he handled injuries, I mean it worked well for RG3 after his mishap. Tua, while I’m sure wants to win, should’ve had some say. Maybe he did🤷🏼‍♂️

[Warcodered]

 

[syhuang]

re-injury what going into Bengals game, Mike? his back?

 

 

[Scott7975]

4 hours ago, syhuang said:

re-injury what going into Bengals game, Mike? his back?

 

 

 

Are we sure he wasnt on the field in Tuas uniform for that concussion?  This dude can barely talk.

[Rochesterfan]

On 10/1/2022 at 9:18 PM, Scott7975 said:

 

 

Again... if they were confident in their diagnosis on the field then why would they check him every day for concussion symptoms?  If they weren't confident in the diagnosis to the point that they felt they should check him every day including game day morning then Tua never should have been put back on that field.

 

I am not exactly sure what they are required to do.

 

For example on NFL radio today - they were talking about Cameron Brate’s concussion last night.  He got hit and they tested him - he was cleared of the protocol and went back in to play.  The guys stated that the UNC and the team doctor are required to perform the testing again every couple of series because some times the delayed effects.  
 

Brate on retesting was deemed to have a concussion and was pulled out at that point.

 

So even though Tua cleared it is possible that the expectations are that he would get tested in case of delayed effects.

 

I had never heard of the multiple testing, but the UNC the NFL guys were talking with said it is standard and done - just rarely talked about.

 

 

[Scott7975]

11 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

I am not exactly sure what they are required to do.

 

For example on NFL radio today - they were talking about Cameron Brate’s concussion last night.  He got hit and they tested him - he was cleared of the protocol and went back in to play.  The guys stated that the UNC and the team doctor are required to perform the testing again every couple of series because some times the delayed effects.  
 

Brate on retesting was deemed to have a concussion and was pulled out at that point.

 

So even though Tua cleared it is possible that the expectations are that he would get tested in case of delayed effects.

 

I had never heard of the multiple testing, but the UNC the NFL guys were talking with said it is standard and done - just rarely talked about.

 

 

 

Its possible because I am unsure either.  Just seems a little strange to me.  This is the first time I have ever heard of a player getting continual testing after being ruled not a concussion.  Not saying it hasnt happened... just saying I have never heard of it.

[Rochesterfan]

3 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Its possible because I am unsure either.  Just seems a little strange to me.  This is the first time I have ever heard of a player getting continual testing after being ruled not a concussion.  Not saying it hasnt happened... just saying I have never heard of it.

 

I had not either, but Brate was pulled several series later and the doctor stated it happens in the background and almost never changes, but interesting that right after Tua - something similar happens to Brate.

 

 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Rochesterfan

[Augie]

On 10/1/2022 at 9:23 PM, Buffalo Bills Fan said:

 

Way to short to put Tua back on field. Should be a week guaranteed out and with testing after that.

 

NFL need to fix it rules as well to make "Sure" thing's go well with the player with lots of testing.  Dolphins did horrible in all this. Lots around awful in all of this.

 

It’s like the Browns of the South. 

[Warcodered]

 

7 hours ago, syhuang said:

re-injury what going into Bengals game, Mike? his back?

 

 

I don't know why he'd be happy about being investigated.

[Augie]

On 10/1/2022 at 11:10 PM, WyoAZBillfan said:

Seems like dolphins coach learned well from Shanahan and how he handled injuries, I mean it worked well for RG3 after his mishap. Tua, while I’m sure wants to win, should’ve had some say. Maybe he did🤷🏼‍♂️

 

I’m sure he had every opportunity to bail out, but he wanted back in. Sometimes people need to be protected from themselves. 

 

I fear this will not be the last time he is concussed. Just like at Alabama, he’s not as athletic as he thinks he is. He is easily caught and tossed like a rag doll. That is NOT good when NFL players are doing the tossing.