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Baldy's Breakdowns - week 2


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37 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

That is college-only. In the NFL a forward pass is a forward pass. (Unless the rule changed very recently)

 

I still think we got away with one, because the NFL rule is 1 yard and he was definitely more than 1 yard away from the LOS. But maybe not being engaged helped the refs miss it.

 

That, and Josh's beautiful play action fake took all their eyes to the run.

Oh, they definitely missed that one in that case! Had no idea the NFL didn’t have that exception. 

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23 minutes ago, The Wiz said:

Just saw this.

 

 

 

Yeah, this makes me think we got away with one. Great job by Brown to loop back to the LOS tho. He really only gave the refs a 1sec window to throw that flag and likely no one noticed in that time. I'm sure that is part of Dorsey's design.

 

Great coaches/Great teams push those rule boundaries. I like it.

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2 hours ago, HoofHearted said:

He 100% isn't an eligible receiver on that play - he was covered. Ball started on the 10 - he was close enough within that 1 yard downfield range they allow on screens when not engaged for it to not be a flag.

 

 

Brown looks like he is trying to quietly tiptoe past his parents bedroom door when he got home 2 hours after curfew as a teenager  as he is flowing out to his left on the play to get in position....he is like "I hope nobody notices me out here"...all 6'8" 330 lbs of him 😂

Edited by Big Turk
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42 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Yeah, this makes me think we got away with one. Great job by Brown to loop back to the LOS tho. He really only gave the refs a 1sec window to throw that flag and likely no one noticed in that time. I'm sure that is part of Dorsey's design.

 

Great coaches/Great teams push those rule boundaries. I like it.

Agreed. Brown got away with one there as he was two yards past the LOS before Allen threw the ball. Brown did a good job of hustling back though. 

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3 hours ago, Big Turk said:

LOVE THESE!

 

On that 4th and 1 play where the Bills were stopped that he shows, I still think the Bills were trying to run a similar play to Davis against the Rams where he scored---block the end man on the line and then release into a pattern...except he missed his block and Byard crashed into the backfield to disrupt the play.  

 

If Davis was in there, that wouldn't have happened.  These are the type of details that go awry when backups who don't run these plays very often are forced into action without many prior reps.

That was Shakir who failed to block Byard.  You're right, if Davis was there, the whole play turns out differently.

 

Little things like this are a big reason why it's hard to make it on the field as an NFL receiver.  There's just so much to learn.

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4 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

Man, that first TD pass play to Gilliam, how did we not get flagged for Spencer Brown being so far downfield? He was as deep as the LBs!

 

edit: lol, even Baldy says "I dont know how he got there".

 

(Good teams are lucky)

 

 

Spencer Brown missed on his initial block and was on the ground. he got up and made the downfield block after the pass was completed.

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11 minutes ago, BillsBytheBay said:

Spencer Brown missed on his initial block and was on the ground. he got up and made the downfield block after the pass was completed.

Watch the play again closely and you’ll see that upon the snap and while Allen was executing the play action fake, Brown ran unimpeded along the nine yard line to the left side of the field, two yards past the LOS. 

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6 hours ago, PetermansRedemption said:

I believe there is no ineligible man downfield penalty if the ball never crosses the line of scrimmage. Spencer Brown knew it was a screen to Gilliam, so he could have been wherever. Gilliam catches the ball behind the LOS. 

 

DingDingDing

 

I believe you are correct

 

Quote

With one exception, on any given pass play only eligible receivers can cross the line of scrimmage before either A) a pass crosses the line, or B) a defender touches the ball. The exception is on a forward pass that doesn't cross the line of scrimmage (like a screen or shovel pass). On such a play, the linemen can cross the line and be on their merry ways.

 

Edit: although another source I consulted says that's an NCAA only exception. 

Edited by Beck Water
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6 hours ago, patzen said:

It's only a penalty if he's engaged as a blocker downfield. Since he wasn't blocking anyone he's allowed to go wherever he wants as long as he reported as an eligible receiver. We snuck him downfield to block in the second level after setting up the screen.

 

I think this is the opposite of what's correct.  If the lineman is engaged as a blocker, he's allowed to be downfield.  If he's running downfield looking for something to do, he's "ineligible receiver downfield".  If Brown reported in as an eligible receiver, he would still not be eligible to catch a pass because he would be "covered" by a receiver lined up to his R

 

https://www.the-sun.com/sport/nfl/6020900/ineligible-receiver-ineligible-man-downfield-nfl/

 

If he were NOT engaged as a blocker, then I believe he gets a yard in the NFL (3 in college) though I'm hazy on this point.  If he's continuously engaged as a blocker then he can go further downfield.

 

 

2 hours ago, BillsBytheBay said:

Spencer Brown missed on his initial block and was on the ground. he got up and made the downfield block after the pass was completed.

 

Nope, no miss, he snuck out and ran across.  It's a good question whether he was >1 yd past the line of scrimmage or not, and whether the "screen pass exception" exists in the NFL (apparently it does not)

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42 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

It's a good question whether he was >1 yd past the line of scrimmage or not, and whether the "screen pass exception" exists in the NFL (apparently it does not)

Brown was clearly running along the nine yard line which was two yards past the LOS.  There’s no screen pass exception in the NFL. It’s pretty cut and dried. Here’s the NFL rule:

 

Quote

SECTION 3 INELIGIBLE PLAYER DOWNFIELD
ARTICLE 1. LEGAL AND ILLEGAL ACTS. On a scrimmage play during which a legal forward pass is thrown, an ineligible offensive player, including a T-formation quarterback, is not permitted to move more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage before the pass has been thrown.
Item 1. Legally Downfield. An ineligible player is not illegally downfield if, after initiating contact with an opponent within one yard of the line of scrimmage during his initial charge:
(a) he moves more than one yard beyond the line while legally blocking or being blocked by an opponent
(b) after breaking legal contact with an opponent more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage, he remains stationary until
a forward pass is thrown
(c) after losing legal contact with an opponent more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage, he is forced behind the line of
scrimmage by an opponent, at which time he is again subject to normal blocking restrictions for an ineligible offensive player.
Note: If an ineligible offensive player moves beyond the line while legally blocking or being blocked by an opponent, an eligible offensive player may catch a pass between them and the line of scrimmage.
Item 2. Illegally Downfield. An ineligible offensive player is illegally downfield if:
(a) he moves more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage without contacting an opponent
(b) after losing contact with an opponent within one yard of the line of scrimmage, he advances more than one yard beyond the
line of scrimmage
(c) after losing contact with an opponent more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage, he continues to move toward his
opponent’s goal line.
Penalty: For ineligible offensive player downfield: Loss of five yards from the previous spot.
ARTICLE 2. AFTER PASS IS THROWN. After the ball leaves the passer’s hand, ineligible pass receivers can advance more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage, or beyond the position reached by their initial charge, provided that they do not block or contact a defensive player, who is more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage, until the ball is touched by a player of either team. Such prior blocking and/or contact is pass interference if it occurs in the vicinity of where the ball is thrown. See 8-3- 1-Note above for exception when blocker maintains continuous contact.

 

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7 hours ago, patzen said:

It's only a penalty if he's engaged as a blocker downfield. Since he wasn't blocking anyone he's allowed to go wherever he wants as long as he reported as an eligible receiver. We snuck him downfield to block in the second level after setting up the screen.

 

 

No, that's not right.

 

Engaged or not, if he's downfield before the pass is thrown it's a penalty.

 

The rule is to prevent confusion for the defense, so they don't see lots of guys downfield that they think they have to cover. It's got nothing to do with blocking.

 

Though officially they should call this penalty quickly, it's almost never actually called until someone is five or more yards downfield. You can see from the Cover1 footage that Brown stays within about 3 yards of the LOS until well after the ball is thrown.

Edited by Thurman#1
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2 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

No, that's not right.

 

Engaged or not, if he's downfield before the pass is thrown it's a penalty.

 

The rule is to prevent confusion for the defense, so they don't see lots of guys downfield that they think they have to cover. It's got nothing to do with blocking.

 

Though officially they should call this penalty quickly, it's almost never actually called until someone is five or more yards downfield. You can see from the Cover1 footage that Brown stays within about 3 yards of the LOS until well after the ball is thrown.

He can be downfield if he's an eligible receiver. I didn't realize he was covered up at the line so he couldn't have reported as eligible. I appreciate the clarification. 

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10 hours ago, The Wiz said:

Just saw this.

 

 

 

 

Allen could've passed it to Brown just as easily and he walks in untouched.    We talked about this when Brown was drafted, I believe he played some TE in high school or college, at some point he'll be catching thick sixes.

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13 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

Shakir missed the block...that's where we missed Davis. That's a block he makes.

Shakir missed that block and totally whiffed earlier on a WR screen that McKenzie had to then purposefully drop so we didn’t lose yardage. He won’t dress much if he continues to show this incompetence on basic blocking plays since he is not a primary WR for us. 

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35 minutes ago, Locomark said:

Shakir missed that block and totally whiffed earlier on a WR screen that McKenzie had to then purposefully drop so we didn’t lose yardage. He won’t dress much if he continues to show this incompetence on basic blocking plays since he is not a primary WR for us. 

I've accepted the fact that he won't contribute much this season. Very much on the Gabe Davis timeline. Gabe looked great in his rookie preseason too, but there is a ton to learn before McD and co. can count on you for significant snaps.

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