HappyDays Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Billz4ever said: You're entire argument is based on hypotheticals that you have no way of knowing the outcome. If there's an "if" in your argument, it's not a real argument. It's a prediction based of a hypothetical situation, so it's literally impossible to claim it's true. I sincerely cannot think of a single time Allen has made that many mistakes against a good team and the Bills still won. The closest I can think of is the Packers from earlier this year and they weren't even a playoff team. The story on the Bills is that Allen has to play perfect for the team to have a chance against other playoff teams, and sometimes even that isn't enough (see: the divisional round last year). Do you think the Bills would have beaten the Jaguars in the divisional round if Allen was hopping on one foot for the entire 2nd half and got relieved by Case Keenum for a couple drives? I don't. You're correct that this is all hypothetical, but there are enough data points over the past three seasons to know that the Bills don't beat good teams if Allen doesn't play at an elite level for 4 quarters. I mean he had arguably the greatest game in playoff history and the gap between the two teams was otherwise so great that the Bills still lost. 6 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said: What if Allen hit that long pass to Diggs on the first drive? I agree. What if Joe Thuney was our LG instead of Rodger Saffold and Allen was able to make that pass without getting hit at the same time? Maybe Diggs scores a long TD which would have changed the game. 6 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said: What if he found ways to move the ball despite facing heavy Bengal pressure? Edited February 10 by HappyDays 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayBaller10 Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 5 minutes ago, HappyDays said: I sincerely cannot think of a single time Allen has made that many mistakes against a good team and the Bills still won. The closest I can think of is the Packers from earlier this year and they weren't even a playoff team. The story on the Bills is that Allen has to play perfect for the team to have a chance against other playoff teams, and sometimes even that isn't enough (see: the divisional round last year). Do you think the Bills would have beaten the Jaguars in the divisional round if Allen was hopping on one foot for the entire 2nd half and got relieved by Case Keenum for a couple drives? I don't. You're correct that this is all hypothetical, but there are enough data points over the past three seasons to know that the Bills don't beat good teams if Allen doesn't play at an elite level for 4 quarters. I mean he had arguably the greatest game in playoff history and the gap between the two teams was otherwise so great that the Bills still lost. I agree. What if Joe Thuney was our LG instead of Rodger Saffold and Allen was able to make that pass without getting hit at the same time? Maybe Diggs scores a long TD which would have changed the game. It’s obvious you don’t get it and/or the frustration is clouding your judgement, so there’s nothing more for me to say. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billz4ever Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 (edited) 9 minutes ago, HappyDays said: I sincerely cannot think of a single time Allen has made that many mistakes against a good team and the Bills still won. The closest I can think of is the Packers from earlier this year and they weren't even a playoff team. The story on the Bills is that Allen has to play perfect for the team to have a chance against other playoff teams, and sometimes even that isn't enough (see: the divisional round this year). Do you think the Bills would have beaten the Jaguars in the divisional round if Allen was hopping on one foot for the entire 2nd half and got relieved by Case Keenum for a couple drives? I don't. You're correct that this is all hypothetical, but there are enough data points over the past three seasons to know that the Bills don't beat good teams if Allen doesn't play at an elite level for 4 quarters. I mean he had arguably the greatest game in playoff history and the gap between the two teams was otherwise so great that the Bills still lost. We'll let's put this to rest right here so we can move on. The wildcard game the week prior the divisional loss. Allen threw 2 picks, lost a fumble returned for a TD, took 7 sacks, and had a much lower completion %. You're literally comparing that to a game where Mahomes had a way better completion percentage, threw no picks and lost 1 fumble. Edited February 10 by Billz4ever 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DabillsDaBillsDaBills Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 6 minutes ago, HappyDays said: I sincerely cannot think of a single time Allen has made that many mistakes against a good team and the Bills still won. The closest I can think of is the Packers from earlier this year and they weren't even a playoff team. The story on the Bills is that Allen has to play perfect for the team to have a chance against other playoff teams, and sometimes even that isn't enough (see: the divisional round last year). Do you think the Bills would have beaten the Jaguars in the divisional round if Allen was hopping on one foot for the entire 2nd half and got relieved by Case Keenum for a couple drives? I don't. You're correct that this is all hypothetical, but there are enough data points over the past three seasons to know that the Bills don't beat good teams if Allen doesn't play at an elite level for 4 quarters. I mean he had arguably the greatest game in playoff history and the gap between the two teams was otherwise so great that the Bills still lost. I agree. What if Joe Thuney was our LG instead of Rodger Saffold and Allen was able to make that pass without getting hit at the same time? Maybe Diggs scores a long TD which would have changed the game. The playoff game vs the Ravens. Allen had a not great game (which was excusable with the extreme wind) and the DEF balled the ***** out. Guess you could debate if the Ravens are a "good" playoff team. That's the only game I can think of though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DapperCam Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 55 minutes ago, HappyDays said: Mahomes found a way to lose against the Bengals in the playoffs last year. Quite literally he was the primary reason they lost. This year his defense was the primary reason they won. This post is a joke and you know it. My memory may be faulty, but I distinctly remember Mahomes giving Joe Burrow the ball with time for a game winning time expiring drive. KC defense stood up. Then Mahomes was gifted a personal foul penalty for a game winning field goal on the next drive (it was a penalty but not because of some great play by Mahomes unless you count the flop). It wasn’t some convincing win where he was slinging it all over the place. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dopey Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 13 minutes ago, HappyDays said: But everything I said there is true. Of course Mahomes is an elite QB. He made a number of great plays in that game, like he always does. The numerous mistakes however would have sunk him if he was the Bills QB that day because our defense would not have held the Bengals for that long, our #2 WR would not have made several great catches and plays to keep drives going. Allen played like crap against the Jets but made a great play at the end that should have gotten us right back in it... and instead it bounced off Davis's chest. I've seen this story too many times in Allen's career so the common narratives are really starting to frustrate me. So many times I've seen Allen put the team on his back against other good teams, and not once have I seen the team do the same for him. Sure against the Bears and Falcons of the world he can play below his standard and the Bills still win. But if he made that many mistakes against the Bengals we lose every single time. I call bull💩 on this. Allen was hurt in the loss to the Jets. The very next game, Josh played and literally gave the game to the Vikings. You can't argue this(well...). We went on an 8 game winning streak after that. Allen was definitely not playing his best in this stretch. The excuses were "his elbow". Fair enough, but he had some games where the team put Allen oh their back. We didn't go on that winning streak on the back of Allen. Not even close. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyDays Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 3 minutes ago, Billz4ever said: We'll let's put this to rest right here so we can move on. The wildcard game the week prior the divisional loss. Allen threw 2 picks, lost a fumble returned for a TD, took 7 sacks, and had a much lower completion %. You're literally comparing that to a game where Mahomes had a way better completion percentage, threw no picks and lost 1 fumble. I don't consider the Dolphins with Skylar Thompson at QB to be a good team but your point is taken, that is a reasonable example where the defense stepped up to keep us in the game while Allen and the offense floundered for several drives. Just to tie up this discussion, my point is not to compare Allen and Mahomes as QBs. I recognize that Mahomes' overall body of work is better than Allen's. I just hate when people say things like "great players find a way to win" as some evidence that Mahomes is SO much better than Allen. I think the gap between their support systems is much greater than the gap between the QBs. Mahomes literally "made enough plays" to win the AFCCG but he had a lot of help from his team and his coaches. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billz4ever Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 8 minutes ago, DapperCam said: My memory may be faulty, but I distinctly remember Mahomes giving Joe Burrow the ball with time for a game winning time expiring drive. KC defense stood up. Then Mahomes was gifted a personal foul penalty for a game winning field goal on the next drive (it was a penalty but not because of some great play by Mahomes unless you count the flop). It wasn’t some convincing win where he was slinging it all over the place. The personal foul came on a 5-yard run on a 3rd and 4 at the Cincy 47. To make it sound like the only reason they won is because of that is just not factual. Chiefs would've had a 1st down at the Cincy 42 with time left anyway. And explain how you get over 300 yards and 67% completion without making good throws? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayBaller10 Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 14 minutes ago, HappyDays said: I don't consider the Dolphins with Skylar Thompson at QB to be a good team but your point is taken, that is a reasonable example where the defense stepped up to keep us in the game while Allen and the offense floundered for several drives. Just to tie up this discussion, my point is not to compare Allen and Mahomes as QBs. I recognize that Mahomes' overall body of work is better than Allen's. I just hate when people say things like "great players find a way to win" as some evidence that Mahomes is SO much better than Allen. I think the gap between their support systems is much greater than the gap between the QBs. Mahomes literally "made enough plays" to win the AFCCG but he had a lot of help from his team and his coaches. This was by far your best post. You either came around or simmered down, but either way it was the most rational. Earlier you said Mahomes “absolutely did not” make the plays he needed to make for the Chiefs to win, but here you acknowledge he “made enough plays to win the AFCCG,” which never should’ve been questioned or in doubt. Great players do find a way to win, even if you hate the saying. They won’t always win, but more often than not they find a way - hence Mahomes’ success. Let’s get Allen the help he needs on the OL and a legit second receiving option (I don’t consider this to be Knox), to see how much he can elevate his game. He still needs to get better pre and post snap, even the most ardent Allen supporter can’t argue against this. Lastly I’ll say, even though I am a realist, I’m also a Mahomes and Chiefs hater, so… Fly Eagles, Fly! 🦅 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheyCallMeAndy Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 14 hours ago, Awwufelloff said: Still can’t believe we traded that pick away when we needed a QB He wouldn’t have been that guy here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay_Fixit Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 18 minutes ago, TheyCallMeAndy said: He wouldn’t have been that guy here. There is nothing to suggest he wouldn’t have been or be. That’s literally just a guess. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayBaller10 Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 8 minutes ago, Jay_Fixit said: There is nothing to suggest he wouldn’t have been or be. That’s literally just a guess. It’s what people say to lessen the sting. I’m sure there are a bunch of Portland Trailblazer fans who say “Michael Jordan wouldn’t have been ‘Michael Jordan’ if he was drafted by us and not the Bulls.” 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CincyBillsFan Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 3 hours ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said: The playoff game vs the Ravens. Allen had a not great game (which was excusable with the extreme wind) and the DEF balled the ***** out. Guess you could debate if the Ravens are a "good" playoff team. That's the only game I can think of though. You might remember that the weather that night was very bad and limited both offenses. In spite of that Allen threw for over 200 yards and a TD. Importantly Allen did not have a TO and clearly outplayed Lamar Jackson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CincyBillsFan Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 1 hour ago, JayBaller10 said: It’s what people say to lessen the sting. I’m sure there are a bunch of Portland Trailblazer fans who say “Michael Jordan wouldn’t have been ‘Michael Jordan’ if he was drafted by us and not the Bulls.” What sting? That we passed on Mahomes and ended up with Allen? First off that was 6 years ago. Second, had we passed on Mahomes to draft Rosen or Darnold instead of Allen then I might agree that the sting is still there. But the very next year we drafted an elite QB who is a generational talent in his own right. At that point all that mattered was what did KC & Buffalo do to develop their guy and surround him with the best offensive talent and coaching possible. Looking at it from that perspective it's clear that the Chiefs have done a lot more for Mahomes then the Bills did for Allen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billz4ever Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 1 hour ago, JayBaller10 said: It’s what people say to lessen the sting. I’m sure there are a bunch of Portland Trailblazer fans who say “Michael Jordan wouldn’t have been ‘Michael Jordan’ if he was drafted by us and not the Bulls.” 1 minute ago, CincyBillsFan said: What sting? That we passed on Mahomes and ended up with Allen? First off that was 6 years ago. Second, had we passed on Mahomes to draft Rosen or Darnold instead of Allen then I might agree that the sting is still there. But the very next year we drafted an elite QB who is a generational talent in his own right. At that point all that mattered was what did KC & Buffalo do to develop their guy and surround him with the best offensive talent and coaching possible. Looking at it from that perspective it's clear that the Chiefs have done a lot more for Mahomes then the Bills did for Allen. Which should be the priority of any organization I would think and hope. If you aren't arming and protecting the face of your franchise, I question your priorities and your ability to ever bring home a Championship. Guess they thought Diggs would be all we needed and we could do everything else offensively on the cheap, while pouring a ton of resources into the defense with not a lot to show for it given what was spent. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CincyBillsFan Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 3 hours ago, Dopey said: I call bull💩 on this. Allen was hurt in the loss to the Jets. The very next game, Josh played and literally gave the game to the Vikings. You can't argue this(well...). We went on an 8 game winning streak after that. Allen was definitely not playing his best in this stretch. The excuses were "his elbow". Fair enough, but he had some games where the team put Allen oh their back. We didn't go on that winning streak on the back of Allen. Not even close. I don't agree. A better description of the Vikings game was that Allen made key mistakes at the end when the Bills could have won a game. But that game was lost because of the D. The fact is that Allen played very well in leading the Bills to a 27 - 10 lead late in the 3rd quarter. And in spite of playing at home where a top ranked D is supposed to thrive the D promptly let the Vikes back in the game allowing Cook to go 82 yards off tackle to cut the lead to 27 - 17. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CincyBillsFan Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 1 minute ago, Billz4ever said: Which should be the priority of any organization I would think and hope. If you aren't arming and protecting the face of your franchise, I question your priorities and your ability to ever bring home a Championship. Guess they thought Diggs would be all we needed and we could do everything else offensively on the cheap, while pouring a ton of resources into the defense with not a lot to show for it given what was spent. It's the difference between a defensive minded head coach and an offensive minded head coach. I like McD and he deserves a lot of credit for lifting the Bills out of football hell and making them relevant again. But this off season is a big test for him. Either he pivots on a dime and works to strengthen the O or he doubles down on the D. If he doubles down and focuses on the D then at minimum the Bills better make it to the AFC championship game next season or McD should be fired. If McD focuses on the offense we have to recognize that it might take a couple of years to fix the problem. In this scenario McD would have those couple of years to get it done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awwufelloff Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 3 hours ago, Dopey said: I call bull💩 on this. Allen was hurt in the loss to the Jets. The very next game, Josh played and literally gave the game to the Vikings. You can't argue this(well...). We went on an 8 game winning streak after that. Allen was definitely not playing his best in this stretch. The excuses were "his elbow". Fair enough, but he had some games where the team put Allen oh their back. We didn't go on that winning streak on the back of Allen. Not even close. I’m a season ticket holder and feel like I was watching different games then some posters on here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billz4ever Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 2 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said: It's the difference between a defensive minded head coach and an offensive minded head coach. I like McD and he deserves a lot of credit for lifting the Bills out of football hell and making them relevant again. But this off season is a big test for him. Either he pivots on a dime and works to strengthen the O or he doubles down on the D. If he doubles down and focuses on the D then at minimum the Bills better make it to the AFC championship game next season or McD should be fired. If McD focuses on the offense we have to recognize that it might take a couple of years to fix the problem. In this scenario McD would have those couple of years to get it done. Agreed. The NFL has shifted and coaches (particularly defensive coaches) either learn to adapt, or they get left in the dust. The adage "defense wins championships" isn't as true as it used to be. With the high-powered offenses and the rules always being adjusted in favor of the offense and scoring more points, there has to be a point where a coach decides that the defense doesn't have to be perfect. It just has to be good enough and you can't continue dumping your best resources into one side of the ball, when the side you need to score points is being carried by one guy, and against good teams, needs help to win. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayBaller10 Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 37 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said: What sting? That we passed on Mahomes and ended up with Allen? First off that was 6 years ago. Second, had we passed on Mahomes to draft Rosen or Darnold instead of Allen then I might agree that the sting is still there. But the very next year we drafted an elite QB who is a generational talent in his own right. At that point all that mattered was what did KC & Buffalo do to develop their guy and surround him with the best offensive talent and coaching possible. Looking at it from that perspective it's clear that the Chiefs have done a lot more for Mahomes then the Bills did for Allen. I’d say it’s more so the sting of all those accolades that Mahomes has rather than passing on him and ending up with Allen. People like to say “that wouldn’t have happened here” as if to convince themselves the player would be lesser. We do agree that McBeane has failed to surround their superstar QB with the best resources possible. They obviously didn’t think a defensive minded HC’s unit could fail time and time again if most of the premium resources were put into that side of the ball. And we now know their perspective was wrong. I bet that you’ll see McBeane address the offense with those premium resources much more than the defense this offseason… 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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