JA v. Big Ben

[TheBrownBear]

1 hour ago, Gugny said:

 

But don't forget ... Keyshawn Johnson says that the Bills never win any games because of Josh Allen.  

And the loss of Daboll will devastate our chances next season and Josh will turn into a pumpkin.

[FilthyBeast]

21 hours ago, RyanC883 said:

At a event in Pgh is here.  While he is big and athletic looking, JA looks bigger and watching their first few years is a better QB.  

 

All that said, Ben has 2 rings.  JA should get at least that or we have a coaching/GM failure.  

 

Anyone think Ben is better?  

 

Based on their careers thus far yes Big Ben is better by default because of said accolades.

 

But I actually don't agree with the comparisons, I think JA is definitely more talented overall but his career will be cut short unless he moves away from the reckless plays and running so much.

 

Also you bring up the point I've been critical about for some time and especially after the Chiefs debacle in the playoffs, at some point coaching has to be addressed especially if McDermott is unable to go any further this year with a QB who may not even have hit his ceiling yet but already has one of the better playoff metrics in NFL history.

[Rigby]

5 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

But don't forget ... Keyshawn Johnson says that the Bills never win any games because of Josh Allen.  

Keyshawn Johnson is one of the worst analysts on tv and that's saying something.

[RyanC883]

21 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

I think if McDermott can clean up his playoff defense and avoid any more brain farts, Josh is more than capable of matching Ben's 2 rings and gold jacket. 

 

I hope so.  Frazier’s timid play calling is my bigger concern.  Like he is upset he was not hired.  He blew the job interview on national TV in 13 seconds and OT. 

[Rigotz]

This is why we can’t have nice things.

[Dr.Sack]

Big Ben had how many Hall of Fame caliber players on his team? 
 

The future is unwritten, but anything short of at least 1 would be gut wrenching. 

[Thurman#1]

19 hours ago, NewEra said:

Many, me included, have already assigned blame to McD for Josh not winning the SB last year.  We’ll never know if we would’ve won, but we do know that McD prevented us from finding out.  Considering how Josh was playing in those 2 playoff games last year, I truly believe McD’s coaching in the final 13 seconds is the reason Josh doesn’t have one.  
 

Regarding the bolded….it HAS happened.  S The future is TBD, but we’ve already seen a catastrophe take place.  A catastrophe that, imo, cost Josh his chance at his first SB.  If Josh were to retire with no rings, many would believe that he doesn’t have a ring because of bad coaching….13 seconds is reason enough to feel that way.   

 

i agree that talking about the future is a different conversation….but the past has already shown bad coaching has cost them their best shot at a ring
 

 

 

Nah.

 

You may believe it's McD's fault, but there's no particular reason to think that's the reality.

 

In fact, there's good reason to think that's NOT so. It's been made clear that McDermott wanted the squib kick and the message didn't get to the kicker. The other members of the kick team clearly knew it, as they're shocked by the long kick.

 

And Levi Wallace said that the mistake on those two plays was poor communication between him and the safeties which resulted in bad spacing, allowing the longer YAC on the plays.

 

Blaming McD at this point says more about you than about him.

 

I suppose you can blame McDermott in the buck stops here sense. He should accept blame. But us blaming him at this point doesn't make much sense.

 

You said, "regarding the bolded," but I can't find anything bolded. So I don't know what you're referring to. But the past really does NOT show that bad coaching was the problem, nor that this was their best shot at a ring (last year we made the AFC championship, this year we had a ways to go, and the future could provide many more). Not Josh Allen's shot, that was the Buffalo Bills on that field.

 

The past doesn't show that bad coaching cost them a shot. Your post shows it's your opinion that's what cost them, but again, that's you. The past shows they had a chance and lost, is what it shows. 

 

The Steelers had a great chance to win one in Roetlisberger's first year. Lots of good teams have had great chances and not managed it. Some followed that up quickly or even quite a bit later (Elway) with SB wins. There's no reason to think this team won't win one or more, perhaps very soon.

 

 

Edited July 16, 2022 by Thurman#1

[NewEra]

15 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Nah.

 

You may believe it's McD's fault, but there's no particular reason to think that's the reality.

 

In fact, there's good reason to think that's NOT so. It's been made clear that McDermott wanted the squib kick and the message didn't get to the kicker. The other members of the kick team clearly knew it, as they're shocked by the long kick.

 

And Levi Wallace said that the mistake on those two plays was poor communication between him and the safeties which resulted in bad spacing, allowing the longer YAC on the plays.

 

Blaming McD at this point says more about you than about him.

 

I suppose you can blame McDermott in the buck stops here sense. He should accept blame. But us blaming him at this point doesn't make much sense.

 

You said, "regarding the bolded," but I can't find anything bolded. So I don't know what you're referring to. But the past really does NOT show that bad coaching was the problem, nor that this was their best shot at a ring (last year we made the AFC championship, this year we had a ways to go, and the future could provide many more). Not Josh Allen's shot, that was the Buffalo Bills on that field.

 

The past doesn't show that bad coaching cost them a shot. Your post shows it's your opinion that's what cost them, but again, that's you. The past shows they had a chance and lost, is what it shows. 

 

The Steelers had a great chance to win one in Roetlisberger's first year. Lots of good teams have had great chances and not managed it. Some followed that up quickly or even quite a bit later (Elway) with SB wins. There's no reason to think this team won't win one or more, perhaps very soon.

 

 

You’re delusional.  

[Thurman#1]

3 minutes ago, NewEra said:

You’re delusional.  

 

 

Yeah, well, if you call a guy delusional because he looks at the facts and assumes that's what you should operate off of, yup, I'm indeed delusional.

 

If instead you go by confirmation bias and blame the guy you decided was guilty before the evidence came in, then yeah, you'd maybe blame McD here.

 

Again, Wallace says it, thereby assuming blame. But you know better?

 

Again, the return team were throwing up their hands as they were running down the field, furious that the kick went into the end zone. And an STs coach was let go.

 

Blaming McD entirely without evidence against that is entirely on you.

 

 

[NewEra]

12 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Yeah, well, if you call a guy delusional because he looks at the facts and assumes that's what you should operate off of, yup, I'm indeed delusional.

 

If instead you go by confirmation bias and blame the guy you decided was guilty before the evidence came in, then yeah, you'd maybe blame McD here.

 

Again, Wallace says it, thereby assuming blame. But you know better?

 

Again, the return team were throwing up their hands as they were running down the field, furious that the kick went into the end zone. And an STs coach was let go.

 

Blaming McD entirely without evidence against that is entirely on you.

 

 

Looks at facts…..how about the fact that McD said it’s his fault.  A 13 second collapse and your going to blame Levi Wallace and the ST coach.  
 

it’s on the HC. He runs the team.  He failed. 
 

There is nothing to discuss here.  But die on this hill……strange

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

There's no reason to think this team won't win one or more, perhaps very soon.

 

No reason? Dan Marino and Aaron Rodgers are exhibits A and B. An uber talented QB can go 10-15 years without even making the super bowl let alone winning one or more.

 

They could win one very soon or they could also fail to even make the Super Bowl for the next 10 seasons. It's happened to QB's just as talented as Allen. 

[Thurman#1]

2 hours ago, NewEra said:

Looks at facts…..how about the fact that McD said it’s his fault.  A 13 second collapse and your going to blame Levi Wallace and the ST coach.  
 

it’s on the HC. He runs the team.  He failed. 
 

There is nothing to discuss here.  But die on this hill……strange

 

 

 

 

Oh, did McD say it was his fault?  Did McD say that he had made a mistake? Did he explain the mistake he'd made? Must've missed that. Just real quick give me a link. I promise I'll check back in case I had missed that. I thought he said , "We need to execute better and that starts with me and goes all the way down." And that is NOT "McD said it's his fault."

 

 

Leaders should take responsibility for everything that goes wrong. McD was right to say it started with him. But that's not the same as saying a specific mistake was his fault. I actually wish he had taken a bit more responsibility there. I'd have liked that better. I hope he learns from that. But I didn't see him say it was his fault.

 

Leaders should take responsibility because them doing that is the best way for the organization to work smoothly and maximize organizational results. That doesn't mean anyone with sense should think that taking responsibility means that it was you who made a given mistake.

 

It's not me blaming Levi Wallace. It's he himself. Unlike McDermott, though, Levi specifically laid out the mistake that he made.

 

"We had a good play called."  - Levi Wallace

 

Levi explained carefully that they called the right play, that Poyer and Milano and Wallace usually looked at each other, that Wallace didn't, that they hadn't taken communication for granted for four years but they did on that play, that if he'd looked as he always had to see where Poyer was, he'd have moved to cover inside.

 

 

I do have to agree with you, though dying on this hill is pretty bizarre of you. There's not much evidence out there, but what is out there says they called a squib kick and that Every single piece. But again, choosing to go against the evidence may not make sense if you want to correctly understand things, but there are plenty of times it plays in perfectly to someone's confirmation bias.

 

But again, if "McD said it's his fault," as you claim, please link to it. His explaining how it was his fault would probably go a long way to convincing me.

 

 

Would I give McDermott (and the whole defense, really) a share of the responsibility? Yeah. But putting all of the blame on the coaches doesn't make sense.

 

Edited July 16, 2022 by Thurman#1

[Mr. WEO]

22 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

But don't forget ... Keyshawn Johnson says that the Bills never win any games because of Josh Allen.  

 

He was still hyping Cam Newton last season....

[Thurman#1]

1 hour ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

No reason? Dan Marino and Aaron Rodgers are exhibits A and B. An uber talented QB can go 10-15 years without even making the super bowl let alone winning one or more.

 

They could win one very soon or they could also fail to even make the Super Bowl for the next 10 seasons. It's happened to QB's just as talented as Allen. 

 

 

Please. If you want to respond, read what I write and answer what I actually said. Don't be answering stuff I never said.

 

I never said it wasn't possible that he might not make an SB. Of course it is. I said, "there is no reason to think they won't win a Super Bowl or two." And there isn't.

 

You on the other hand said, "I'd say last years 13 second debacle was at least step one in a long series of mishaps that would lead a player to become the next Dan Marino or Aaron Rodgers." And that makes no sense at all. It's not step one of anything, it's step - I don't know - step 400, maybe. Is that how many days of practice and games the Bills have had? And it's not any step in "a long series of mishaps". That's completely and totally imaginary, something you made up out of whole cloth.

 

Marino (not Rodgers, whose team won one) is proof that it is possible for a great QB to not win a Super Bowl. Which I never denied.

 

Yes they could win one soon and could also fail to even make one. But there is no reason to think they will never win one. That they theoretically could? Yeah, OK. Lots of things are theoretically possible. But that they will? No. Just no.

Edited July 16, 2022 by Thurman#1

[foreboding]

Both athletic freaks. But it seems to me Josh works harder and isn't enamored by being "Big" Josh. He is just Josh, a good, humble kid who wants so badly to be great and win, for not just for himself, but for the team and city. Now, can he get a break, like Ben did several times at the right moment? Let's hope so, last year was one of those moments, but he will have more chances, because I think he is going to be better than Ben when it is all said and done. 

[NewEra]

53 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

 

 

Oh, did McD say it was his fault?  Did McD say that he had made a mistake? Did he explain the mistake he'd made? Must've missed that. Just real quick give me a link. I promise I'll check back in case I had missed that. I thought he said , "We need to execute better and that starts with me and goes all the way down." And that is NOT "McD said it's his fault."

 

 

Leaders should take responsibility for everything that goes wrong. McD was right to say it started with him. But that's not the same as saying a specific mistake was his fault. I actually wish he had taken a bit more responsibility there. I'd have liked that better. I hope he learns from that. But I didn't see him say it was his fault.

 

Leaders should take responsibility because them doing that is the best way for the organization to work smoothly and maximize organizational results. That doesn't mean anyone with sense should think that taking responsibility means that it was you who made a given mistake.

 

It's not me blaming Levi Wallace. It's he himself. Unlike McDermott, though, Levi specifically laid out the mistake that he made.

 

"We had a good play called."  - Levi Wallace

 

Levi explained carefully that they called the right play, that Poyer and Milano and Wallace usually looked at each other, that Wallace didn't, that they hadn't taken communication for granted for four years but they did on that play, that if he'd looked as he always had to see where Poyer was, he'd have moved to cover inside.

 

 

I do have to agree with you, though dying on this hill is pretty bizarre of you. There's not much evidence out there, but what is out there says they called a squib kick and that Every single piece. But again, choosing to go against the evidence may not make sense if you want to correctly understand things, but there are plenty of times it plays in perfectly to someone's confirmation bias.

 

But again, if "McD said it's his fault," as you claim, please link to it. His explaining how it was his fault would probably go a long way to convincing me.

 

 

Would I give McDermott (and the whole defense, really) a share of the responsibility? Yeah. But putting all of the blame on the coaches doesn't make sense.

 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/sean-mcdermott-on-bills-not-squib-kicking-with-13-seconds-left-against-chiefs-that-starts-with-me/amp/
 

“that starts with me”

 

“Again, I'm going to put it on the execution at this point and myself.”

 

https://www.golongtd.com/p/why-13-seconds-is-on-sean-mcdermott

Kelce mic’d up in the moment is wild. The Chiefs weren’t only exceptionally calm those 13 seconds. They noticed the Bills playing soft coverage and took full advantage.

“They play it like that, that seam is open,” Kelce says after the first play.

There’s a loud “Do it ‘Kelc!’” from Mahomes presnap and then it’s as easy as catching a football from your Dad in the backyard:

 

 

We had the game won with 13 seconds left.  Then we lost. He’s the head coach.  It’s on him.  He absolutely blew it with his play calls.  Kelce knew it the second he saw it. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

2 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Please. If you want to respond, read what I write and answer what I actually said. Don't be answering stuff I never said.

 

I never said it wasn't possible that he might not make an SB. Of course it is. I said, "there is no reason to think they won't win a Super Bowl or two." And there isn't.

 

You on the other hand said, "I'd say last years 13 second debacle was at least step one in a long series of mishaps that would lead a player to become the next Dan Marino or Aaron Rodgers." And that makes no sense at all. It's not step one of anything, it's step - I don't know - step 400, maybe. Is that how many days of practice and games the Bills have had? And it's not any step in "a long series of mishaps". That's completely and totally imaginary, something you made up out of whole cloth.

 

Marino (not Rodgers, whose team won one) is proof that it is possible for a great QB to not win a Super Bowl. Which I never denied.

 

Yes they could win one soon and could also fail to even make one. But there is no reason to think they will never win one. That they theoretically could? Yeah, OK. Lots of things are theoretically possible. But that they will? No. Just no.

 

you literally said “there is no reason to think they won’t win a super bowl or TWO” 

 

Marino and Rodgers are literally the examples of great QB’s not winning a super bowl or two “let alone even playing in two Super Bowls. So yes, there is reason to think it might not happen.

 

This whole argument has probably gotten off the rails at any event. We seem to be arguing over semantics.
 

My original point was just pointing out that is is possible, perhaps likely given Allen’s ceiling compared to Big Ben’s, that Allen could be viewed in the long run as a top 5 or top 10 QB all time over Big Ben even if Allen ends up with half the postseason accolades as Big Ben.

 

 

[TheFunPolice]

If Allen plays in 3 Super Bowls and wins 2 I'll be pretty happy! 

[BigAl2526]

Josh Allen versus Ben Rothlisberger?  Allen has a better arm, better mobility, better football intelligence, better character and is a better teammate.  Rothlisberger has Super Bowl rings.

[Thurman#1]

15 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

you literally said “there is no reason to think they won’t win a super bowl or TWO” 

 

Marino and Rodgers are literally the examples of great QB’s not winning a super bowl or two “let alone even playing in two Super Bowls. So yes, there is reason to think it might not happen.

 

This whole argument has probably gotten off the rails at any event. We seem to be arguing over semantics.
 

My original point was just pointing out that is is possible, perhaps likely given Allen’s ceiling compared to Big Ben’s, that Allen could be viewed in the long run as a top 5 or top 10 QB all time over Big Ben even if Allen ends up with half the postseason accolades as Big Ben.

 

 

 

Yeah, I literally said, "There is no reason to think they won't win a Super Bowl or two." And that is still reasonable and correct.

 

I also said, "I never said it wasn't possible that he might not make an SB. Of course it is." Also true. It's possible. But there's no reason to think it will happen that way.

 

Marino isn't a reason to think Allen won't win a Super Bowl any more than Brady is a reason to think Allen will win seven. The fact that a guy in a different situation did something doesn't mean a different guy in a different situation will do the same thing.

 

If you're really only saying that it might happen, I guess we don't have anything to argue about. It might happen and it might not. I guess we can agree on that, and that Allen had a terrific game and the Bills should've won. And further (I assume) that there are plenty of QBs who started out losing good Super Bowl shots and winning one or more later. It can easily happen if your team puts you in the right situation for the future, which this FO seems to have done. Still have to prove it of course.

 

 

 

[Thurman#1]

18 hours ago, NewEra said:

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/sean-mcdermott-on-bills-not-squib-kicking-with-13-seconds-left-against-chiefs-that-starts-with-me/amp/
 

“that starts with me”

 

“Again, I'm going to put it on the execution at this point and myself.”

 

 

Thanks, but you're perfectly backing up my point. I said I thought he had taken responsibility as a good CEO should, but had not said it was his fault. And I challenged you to come back and find somewhere where he said it was his fault, that he had made the mistake.

 

And you come back and find another spot where he again took responsibility as any good leader should.

 

Thanks for finding that, it helps make my point.

 

Cracked me up, by the way, where you found his quote, "Again, I'm going to put it on the execution at this point and myself," and you then bolded the "and myself." Again, this says far more about you and what you want to believe than about McDermott. It would have been every bit as legitimate to bold it like this: ""Again, I'm going to put it on the execution at this point and myself."

 

You said, "Looks at facts…..how about the fact that McD said it’s his fault."  But you can't back that up. He didn't say it was his fault. He didn't say he made a mistake. He took responsibility. It's not the same thing.

 

What he did poorly was that he didn't take responsibility well enough. It doesn't appear to have been his fault, but that's beside the point. When a leader takes responsibility he ought to do it wholeheartedly, even if he actually doesn't deserve any of the blame. McDermott didn't do that. I suspect this loss eats at him like acid and he can't bring himself to do what he knows he should do, take the responsibility regardless even if it's not your fault. Wholeheartedly and completely. That's his mistake here.

 

 

18 hours ago, NewEra said:

 

https://www.golongtd.com/p/why-13-seconds-is-on-sean-mcdermott

Kelce mic’d up in the moment is wild. The Chiefs weren’t only exceptionally calm those 13 seconds. They noticed the Bills playing soft coverage and took full advantage.

“They play it like that, that seam is open,” Kelce says after the first play.

There’s a loud “Do it ‘Kelc!’” from Mahomes presnap and then it’s as easy as catching a football from your Dad in the backyard:

 

 

We had the game won with 13 seconds left.  Then we lost. He’s the head coach.  It’s on him.  He absolutely blew it with his play calls.  Kelce knew it the second he saw it.

 

 

 

This also doesn't support your point.

 

It definitely shows something went wrong, not that anyone could doubt that. But the problem Kelce is talking about is precisely the one that Wallace is saying he blames himself for, and that the defense the coaches had called was good if they'd communicated the way they usually did.

 

And the whole thing wouldn't have been relevant if it hadn't been for not squibbing it, and McDermott called for the squib.

 

Yes, he's responsible as head coach for everything and he should take responsibility and did (though again I'd argue not strongly enough). But you haven't found anything that puts the actual blame on the coaching staff.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 17, 2022 by Thurman#1

[Freddie's Dead]

Well, JA never raped anyone in a bar bathroom, so he's got that going for him, which is nice.

[DCofNC]

Ben got plugged into the system Allen should have been put in, very little pressure on the QB to carry the team.  To this day it’s all about Allen.  With that said, it’s worked out, Allen has grown up FAST.  At this point in their careers, Allen has become a better QB than Ben was at the same point.  Ben lasted and did it for years, let’s hope JA does too.