So whats left to do to free up cap?

[BarleyNY]

9 hours ago, BuffaloBillsGospel said:

The Saints just cleared 80M without cutting a single player, don’t worry about the cap there are plenty of options. This is what you have to do when you’re in it to win it every season. 

The Saints structure their big contract to do this kind of thing.  That strategy definitely has its pitfalls, but the bigger point is that the Bills don’t have things set up like they do.  There are places they can create space, but their situation is not like the Saints. 

[GolfandBills]

2 minutes ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

Not a concern. All we need still in free agency is a veteran backup swing tackle, and then we're beautifully set for the draft. Eight picks to address six remaining roster spots: CB2, WR3/4, RB2, P, backup C/G, WR6/7

 

& I think they'll use a third rounder or so on an LB to replace Edmunds next year

 

1: WR

2: CB

3: LB

4: RB

5: OL

6: WR

6: P

7: luxury pick

So you'd be with Dane Jackson as CB1 and a 2nd round rookie on the other side?

[Giuseppe Tognarelli]

6 minutes ago, GolfandBills said:

So you'd be with Dane Jackson as CB1 and a 2nd round rookie on the other side?

For a few weeks worst case scenario until White returns? Absolutely. The rookie is just replacing Wallace. We did totally fine with Jackson and Wallace for 8 weeks last year.

 

Don't forget they also got McCloud back who they really like as a depth option.

[BarleyNY]

The huge salary cap caveat these days is the impact of the new broadcasting deals that will be inked soon. The cap should see an enormous increase. 

Edited March 20, 2022 by BarleyNY

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

14 hours ago, YattaOkasan said:

Thanks for explaining the rule of 51.

 

Let’s do the math with links below.
Pick 25 has a cap hit of 2.6 million and that bumps the 700k contract of tim Harris. Total 1.9 million

pick 57 has a cap hit of 1.17 million and that bumps the 825k contract of nick mccloud. Total 2.25 million

pick 89 has a cap hit of 960k and that bumps mike loves 830k contract. Total 2.38 million

pick 130 has a cap hit of 900k and that bumps tanner gentry’s 830k contract. Total 2.45 million. 
the remaining picks do not count against the 51 as you mention. 
 

so more than 2 million but not much more. This is why you don’t really hear there being much problem in signing draft classes because of cap space. 
 

Bills contracts

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/cap/

 

cap hits for draft picks 

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/draft/

@ganesh @klos63

 

 

As of now there are still 3 guys the Bills signed without contract values per Spotrac so the three you mention bumping for the rookies will actually be bumped off this week for them.  in addition there likely will be others signed between now and then bumping off even more.  To do that likely means other contracts will either be re-done or players cut.  By the time the rookies sign the 51 cutoff will likely be higher.  Think that means less money needed for the rookies??

 

Your math says a bit over $2 mil, but historically the number has been higher so not sure if we're missing something else??  Looking too at Groot and Bashams contracts from last year when we were drafting lower makes the numbers a bit higher, Groot was $2.1 mil which likely will go up some this year just because it's a year later.  I know those were the numbers of Spotrac, but they somehow don't look quite right, but certainly not double.

 

Saw another thread about Bills having highest payroll in the league, haven't read it yet, but that could explain why much less money this year needed for rookies as their 51 cutoff is much higher than other teams and normal??

 

 

12 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Based on Beane's presser the other day they are in no rush to extend Edmunds. For the first time I believe the Bills are actually wavering on whether to bring him back. My feeling is they have had an initial discussion with the agent and are miles apart on valuation. 

 

You only go to a Saints level of can kicking right at the end of a franchise QBs run. But you absolutely load up around Allen as much as you can at every stage. The Bills have been too cautious and passive the last two years in my view in terms of pursuing established talent. It was time to gamble a little and I am glad they have. 

 

I was kind of thinking the same about Edmunds.  Maybe wouldn't mind signing Edmunds to a short 3 year contract that they can easily get out of after year 1 or 2, but he wants longer and larger.

 

Agree too about kicking can down the road at end of a franchise QB's run.  Tampa kind of did that to a lesser degree thought not so much due to Bradys contact, just in general, same with Rams, they may be in more serious trouble as have few good draft picks and Stafford is no spring chicken. Green Bay should be in that mode, but never seem to be.

Edited March 20, 2022 by Ed_Formerly_of_Roch

[TBBills]

Doesn't matter what you do, the cap can always be manipulated. The cap thread will never reflect the true importance which is the cap doesn't really matter as much as others think. NFL teams are realizing that more and more every year.

 

"The Bills are right up against the cap" really means "The Bills have plenty of cap space."

Edited March 20, 2022 by TBBills

[GunnerBill]

22 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

 

As of now there are still 3 guys the Bills signed without contract values per Spotrac so the three you mention bumping for the rookies will actually be bumped off this week for them.  in addition there likely will be others signed between now and then bumping off even more.  To do that likely means other contracts will either be re-done or players cut.  By the time the rookies sign the 51 cutoff will likely be higher.  Think that means less money needed for the rookies??

 

Your math says a bit over $2 mil, but historically the number has been higher so not sure if we're missing something else??  Looking too at Groot and Bashams contracts from last year when we were drafting lower makes the numbers a bit higher, Groot was $2.1 mil which likely will go up some this year just because it's a year later.  I know those were the numbers of Spotrac, but they somehow don't look quite right, but certainly not double.

 

Saw another thread about Bills having highest payroll in the league, haven't read it yet, but that could explain why much less money this year needed for rookies as their 51 cutoff is much higher than other teams and normal??

 

 

 

I was kind of thinking the same about Edmunds.  Maybe wouldn't mind signing Edmunds to a short 3 year contract that they can easily get out of after year 1 or 2, but he wants longer and larger.

 

Agree too about kicking can down the road at end of a franchise QB's run.  Tampa kind of did that to a lesser degree thought not so much due to Bradys contact, just in general, same with Rams, they may be in more serious trouble as have few good draft picks and Stafford is no spring chicken. Green Bay should be in that mode, but never seem to be.

 

The Rams just got a boatload of comp picks (thank the Browns for that) and will get at least another third next year (thank the Bills for that). Their mid round drafting has been on point over the last few years.

[YattaOkasan]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The Rams just got a boatload of comp picks (thank the Browns for that) and will get at least another third next year (thank the Bills for that). Their mid round drafting has been on point over the last few years.

It’s the secret sauce to the picks don’t matter. Early picks don’t matter if you can nail the middle of the draft. 

[John from Riverside]

3 minutes ago, YattaOkasan said:

It’s the secret sauce to the picks don’t matter. Early picks don’t matter if you can nail the middle of the draft. 

One could argue its even better because of the size of the cost controlled contracts

[muppy]

6 hours ago, TBBills said:

Doesn't matter what you do, the cap can always be manipulated. The cap thread will never reflect the true importance which is the cap doesn't really matter as much as others think. NFL teams are realizing that more and more every year.

 

"The Bills are right up against the cap" really means "The Bills have plenty of cap space."

This is precisely why talk about "the cap" drives me batty. It seems the creativity needed to deal with all these variables, present and future is crazy!~!~!! I respect those of you with ability to decipher all of this . At this point its still a conjecture how the Bills roster end up But the way these finance guys can manipulate the numbers is amazing to me tbh.

[klos63]

9 hours ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

 

As of now there are still 3 guys the Bills signed without contract values per Spotrac so the three you mention bumping for the rookies will actually be bumped off this week for them.  in addition there likely will be others signed between now and then bumping off even more.  To do that likely means other contracts will either be re-done or players cut.  By the time the rookies sign the 51 cutoff will likely be higher.  Think that means less money needed for the rookies??

 

Your math says a bit over $2 mil, but historically the number has been higher so not sure if we're missing something else??  Looking too at Groot and Bashams contracts from last year when we were drafting lower makes the numbers a bit higher, Groot was $2.1 mil which likely will go up some this year just because it's a year later.  I know those were the numbers of Spotrac, but they somehow don't look quite right, but certainly not double.

 

Saw another thread about Bills having highest payroll in the league, haven't read it yet, but that could explain why much less money this year needed for rookies as their 51 cutoff is much higher than other teams and normal??

 

 

 

I was kind of thinking the same about Edmunds.  Maybe wouldn't mind signing Edmunds to a short 3 year contract that they can easily get out of after year 1 or 2, but he wants longer and larger.

 

Agree too about kicking can down the road at end of a franchise QB's run.  Tampa kind of did that to a lesser degree thought not so much due to Bradys contact, just in general, same with Rams, they may be in more serious trouble as have few good draft picks and Stafford is no spring chicken. Green Bay should be in that mode, but never seem to be.

Yes, you both are missing something. You are not counting the 51st player after we draft someone, you're removing the cost of the 51st player from the salary, but you don't lose the 51st salary, you just replace that player with a different one.  Our top 4 picks will be for full cap amount.   Read the Spotrac page regarding draft picks.

[GolfandBills]

10 hours ago, TBBills said:

Doesn't matter what you do, the cap can always be manipulated. The cap thread will never reflect the true importance which is the cap doesn't really matter as much as others think. NFL teams are realizing that more and more every year.

 

"The Bills are right up against the cap" really means "The Bills have plenty of cap space."

Beane has to be careful kicking money down the road.  We don’t wanna be in the Saints situation a few years from now.  

[TBBills]

3 hours ago, GolfandBills said:

Beane has to be careful kicking money down the road.  We don’t wanna be in the Saints situation a few years from now.  

What situation, they kept signing players even with it.

[atlbillsfan1975]

23 hours ago, GolfandBills said:

So you'd be with Dane Jackson as CB1 and a 2nd round rookie on the other side?

If McDermott is then I am. 

[First Round Bust]

On 3/19/2022 at 10:59 PM, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

 

Think it's more than $2 mil but less than $6 mil, maybe in the $4.5 mil range??

 

 

That's not exactly correct.  Until the final cut downs in September, only the top 51 plays salaries count towards the cap.  For a team picking at #25, likely means only the players selected in the 1st 4 rounds would factor in.  A player taken in the 5th round for example would have a salary below the 51st highest player so doesn't count.

 

Once final cutdowns occur, then the 53 players on the roster all count.  So assuming the Bills do keep 5 to 6 of their draft picks, that means 5 to 6 other players got cut, some likely with a higher salary the a 5th or 6th round draft pick.  So you can't just look at Spotrac and take the totals of the first 5 or 6 picks

 

Based on the number of players currently on the roster, it looks like the last 7 players or so on the roster won't count.  As more players are added the number not counting goes up.

 

if you look at the draft pickson the roster from the 2021 draft, per spotrac, the top five picks made the active roster plus Speedy, so the total cap hit come the season for rooks was 6M...got to pay the piper sooner or later, expect some extensions before then to further accomoate...plus the annual 2M Beano uses in reserve.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

1 hour ago, First Round Bust said:

if you look at the draft pickson the roster from the 2021 draft, per spotrac, the top five picks made the active roster plus Speedy, so the total cap hit come the season for rooks was 6M...got to pay the piper sooner or later, expect some extensions before then to further accomoate...plus the annual 2M Beano uses in reserve.

 

Why you counting Speedy with the rookies??

 

Agree about he $2 mil reserves part.  The question was how much money is required to SIGN the rookies.  Signing them occurs late spring, you're looking at who made the 53 man roster two very different things from a money standpoint. 

 

For signing them, only the top 51 salaries are included in the cap so only somewhere around $3 mil is needed, and maybe a little less as the 5th or 6th round pick makes less money than the 51st ranked player salary on the roster so isn't included.  Once September rolls around only the players that make the roster count towards the cap   If 5 picks make the active roster, likely means some other vets got cut along with their salary which was higher than a 5th or 6th round pick.

 

Can't recall last year what vets were cut, but 2 years ago Hauska was cut, a much higher salary than say a six round pick who in this case ironically happened to be the rookie Bass.  So if anything was a cap savings.  Another year McCoy was cut, big savings.

 

Will there be last minute signings of vets sure, but that's down the road.  Now they need to keep around $3 mil for the rookies.

[klos63]

42 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

Why you counting Speedy with the rookies??

 

Agree about he $2 mil reserves part.  The question was how much money is required to SIGN the rookies.  Signing them occurs late spring, you're looking at who made the 53 man roster two very different things from a money standpoint. 

 

For signing them, only the top 51 salaries are included in the cap so only somewhere around $3 mil is needed, and maybe a little less as the 5th or 6th round pick makes less money than the 51st ranked player salary on the roster so isn't included.  Once September rolls around only the players that make the roster count towards the cap   If 5 picks make the active roster, likely means some other vets got cut along with their salary which was higher than a 5th or 6th round pick.

 

Can't recall last year what vets were cut, but 2 years ago Hauska was cut, a much higher salary than say a six round pick who in this case ironically happened to be the rookie Bass.  So if anything was a cap savings.  Another year McCoy was cut, big savings.

 

Will there be last minute signings of vets sure, but that's down the road.  Now they need to keep around $3 mil for the rookies.

 

IF the Bills sign their picks of rounds 1-4, that's almost $5.6 million in rookie salaries they need to have space for. Not sure how people come up with $2-3 million. Right now, player #51 has a $706k cap hit, add #1 pick of $2.6 million, then #50 becomes #51, his cap hit is $825K, which means for the #1 pick, we need about $2.5 alone.

I think I'm understanding this right, correct me if i'm wrong.

[MAJBobby]

Bills now have 4.6M in space (Mancz, Lawson, Lee, Phillips not accounted for) - Keenum is and his new Contract of 3.5M

 

Still likely needed

 

RB - Based off the McKissic stuff

WR3/4 - Depends on how you feel with McKenzie or Stevenson (Hodgins Gentry) in the slot. - I think they will add a vet before the Draft though

Swing OT - I doubt they feel comfortable with Doyle in that role right now

CB (need one, maybe 2.  Right now it is Dane Jackson and Cam Lewis starting outside) - Tre likely gone for 6 weeks to start doubt plan is the unknown of what rookie falls to you in the draft.

 

Big Tickets left to open the most cap space

Diggs - Extension

Poyer - Extension 

Tre White - Restructure

Dion Dawkins - Restructure

Edmunds - Trade or Extension

 

 

Also Bills currently sitting at 61 players (8 draft picks left)

 

Right now the next contract to fall off the top 51 is Nick McCloud (825K)  8 picks has Brandon Bryant (895K falling off) so a 4th round pick  will cost 5K increase on the cap, Third round will count 65K increase, 2nd round pick is about 300K increase.  People really need to remember each player added is discounted right now by the contract it pushes off the top 51.  

 

Using Keenum for example.  3.5M cap hit.  Pushed off Capra's (705K) so Keenum was only a 2.8M INCREASE against the 2022 cap

 

[BearNorth]

Spotrac is saying that Edmunds is currently valued at $13.8MM, His 5th year option is $12.716MM.  He is the third highest paid ILB after the oft injured CJ Mosley, and Deon Jones.  Seems like a lot to pay for the 61st ranked ILB. ?Trade him, and go after Bobby Wagner?

Edited March 21, 2022 by BearNorth

[First Round Bust]

3 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

Bills now have 4.6M in space (Mancz, Lawson, Lee, Phillips not accounted for) - Keenum is and his new Contract of 3.5M

 

Still likely needed

 

RB - Based off the McKissic stuff

WR3/4 - Depends on how you feel with McKenzie or Stevenson (Hodgins Gentry) in the slot. - I think they will add a vet before the Draft though

Swing OT - I doubt they feel comfortable with Doyle in that role right now

CB (need one, maybe 2.  Right now it is Dane Jackson and Cam Lewis starting outside) - Tre likely gone for 6 weeks to start doubt plan is the unknown of what rookie falls to you in the draft.

 

Big Tickets left to open the most cap space

Diggs - Extension

Poyer - Extension 

Tre White - Restructure

Dion Dawkins - Restructure

Edmunds - Trade or Extension

 

 

Also Bills currently sitting at 61 players (8 draft picks left)

 

Right now the next contract to fall off the top 51 is Nick McCloud (825K)  8 picks has Brandon Bryant (895K falling off) so a 4th round pick  will cost 5K increase on the cap, Third round will count 65K increase, 2nd round pick is about 300K increase.  People really need to remember each player added is discounted right now by the contract it pushes off the top 51.  

 

Using Keenum for example.  3.5M cap hit.  Pushed off Capra's (705K) so Keenum was only a 2.8M INCREASE against the 2022 cap

 

good accounting...now for the practice squad, they draw a weekly salary as well, does that hit the cap as well for another 1M+

[MAJBobby]

2 minutes ago, First Round Bust said:

good accounting...now for the practice squad, they draw a weekly salary as well, does that hit the cap as well for another 1M+

Doesnt Count against Cap 

 

How does it work with the salary cap?

Practice squad players do not count against the salary cap. If someone gets promoted to the active roster, he'd be at a minimum salary that wouldn't negatively affect the cap anyway. So this is almost like a tax-free benefit, like airline points and hotel rewards programs.

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/32256800/why-nfl-practice-squads-loaded-big-name-players-know-how-rules-work-more

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

21 hours ago, klos63 said:

IF the Bills sign their picks of rounds 1-4, that's almost $5.6 million in rookie salaries they need to have space for. Not sure how people come up with $2-3 million. Right now, player #51 has a $706k cap hit, add #1 pick of $2.6 million, then #50 becomes #51, his cap hit is $825K, which means for the #1 pick, we need about $2.5 alone.

I think I'm understanding this right, correct me if i'm wrong.

 

OK but what your not doing is subtracting out the cap hits of the last 4 players as they now drop off and will become #51 thru #54.  Gentry thru Harris salaries will no longer count so that saves about $3.1 mil.  So $5.6 minus $3.1 = $2.5 additional needed.

 

In your example above you state #1 pick is $2.6 and now your removing $.7, nets to $1.9 mil NOT $2.5 mil.  Did you instead of taking away $700k or .7 mil take it as $70k or .07 mil.  Then it would be $2.5 mil.

 

There's still 6 guys who aren't even listed with salaries, Barkley, Lee, |Lawson, Phillips, Johnson so the salaries coming off will even be higher then for the rookies, more like the next four are all in the $900k range so that adds up to $3.6 dropping off.

 

Think we're both understanding it correct, but maybe your calculator needs a new battery?? LOL

Edited March 22, 2022 by Ed_Formerly_of_Roch