Stuck with Star's contract ?

[Thurman#1]

2 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

One of the worst contracts in Bills history….Ironic from a regime that’s been pretty good. 

 

 

One of the worst in Bills history? Utter nonsense.

 

Doesn't even reach the same hemisphere as contracts like Charles Clay or Dockery, or even guys like Triplett, Langston Walker, Dwan Edwards, Percy Harvin, Robert Royal, or Brad Smith. Mark Anderson isn't well-remembered, but his was an awful deal. Shawne Merriman at least brought good feelings, but that was an awful deal. Do people remember that the Bills gave Kevin Kolb $13M for two years? 

 

Puh-leeze. That claim says a lot more about you than it does about Star in these inflated days.

 

You're right that this regime has been pretty good. No awful contracts, really, which is why it's fair to say his contract is one of the worst for this group. Maybe even the worst. But not in the same ballpark as many many other from earlier GMs.

[Rigotz]

12 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Most of us understand that he opted out of 2020 because of Covid. That was completely understandable.

 

And he certainly didn't skip most of camp.

 

His lack of availability during the season this year is indeed a real concern, though.

 

 

 

 

 

He skipped all of voluntary mini camp after opting out of the 2020 season.

 

https://buffalonews.com/sports/bills/bills-mailbag-how-concerning-is-star-lotuleleis-absence-from-otas/article_08cbfe3a-bfe6-11eb-a435-4fc09247df5b.html

[Alphadawg7]

9 minutes ago, Rigotz said:

 

Most of us understand that he opted out of 2020 completely which left us completely unprepared at 1-tech, then he skipped most of camp, then wasn't available for large parts of 2021... in addition to being severely overpaid for his production. This is a fine topic. Let's get back to it.

 

One loophole Beane might exploit w/ Star (heard this on a podcast) is that the $2.5M is guaranteed only if he attends 2022 camp. They can use this as a bargaining chip if Star wants to retire and doesn't want to go through camp -- he might be willing to negotiate on his way out and the Bills can restructure the $2.5M in a creative way to free up more 2022 cap.

 

No disrespect bud, but when you say things like "production" it makes me question if you really understand his role here, especially in McD's defense.  Any time someone brings up stats with him, it makes me think they don't understand what he is asked to do in our defense because its not a role that will ever pile on the stats.  

 

His role is to clog the middle, eat space and double teams so others can penetrate.  And its no coincidence that Oliver had his breakout year (after struggling in 2020 a bit) with Star back.  Star being out there played a big role in our team being 5th in QB pressures and 10th in sacks too.  He eats space and double teams, thats his job.  Not to mention, our run D is better when Star is out there on the field.  

 

And I dont understand why people are hung up on the opt out of 2020, it was not his fault we were "unprepared at 1-tech" as you put it, the roster wasn't designed by him.  IMHO, to criticize anyone for prioritizing their health at a time when it was really a much scarier and unknown time in relation to COVID is just unreasonable.  I don't blame him for skipping, COVID was quite serious and unknown still when he opted out.

 

As far as 2021 goes, Tre White wasn't available for a large part of 2021 either, should we hold that against him that he got hurt?  Of course not.  So why is Star held to a different standard?  He still played in 14 games this year, so he was available a lot more than he wasn't.  And he only missed one game with an injury (week 1 toe issue).  The other games he missed was from COVID and complications from it.  He wasn't the only Bill that happened to, but you don't see threads on here thrown them under the bus for it.  

 

Its just such an unreasonable and overly exaggerated amount of hate Star gets, yet all his teammates and coaches gush about him as a player on the field and off it.  

 

Given Star's age and last year of his contract, its not unreasonable to start looking at ways to replace him.  But there is no doubt about it, our defense was better with him on the field.  He gets more hate than he deserves.  

 

My expectation is that Beane looks towards the draft and targets a DT in the first 3 rounds.  Its a legit question on whether Star is on the roster this year or not, especially with the cap stuff.  But I expect him to finish his final year just given the cap savings are not much.  Could see Beane doing something creative too like you suggested.

[Rigotz]

2 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

No disrespect bud, but when you say things like "production" it makes me question if you really understand his role here, especially in McD's defense.  Any time someone brings up stats with him, it makes me think they don't understand what he is asked to do in our defense because its not a role that will ever pile on the stats.  

 

His role is to clog the middle, eat space and double teams so others can penetrate.  And its no coincidence that Oliver had his breakout year (after struggling in 2020 a bit) with Star back.  Star being out there played a big role in our team being 5th in QB pressures and 10th in sacks too.  He eats space and double teams, thats his job.  Not to mention, our run D is better when Star is out there on the field.  

 

And I dont understand why people are hung up on the opt out of 2020, it was not his fault we were "unprepared at 1-tech" as you put it, the roster wasn't designed by him.  IMHO, to criticize anyone for prioritizing their health at a time when it was really a much scarier and unknown time in relation to COVID is just unreasonable.  I don't blame him for skipping, COVID was quite serious and unknown still when he opted out.

 

As far as 2021 goes, Tre White wasn't available for a large part of 2021 either, should we hold that against him that he got hurt?  Of course not.  So why is Star held to a different standard?  He still played in 14 games this year, so he was available a lot more than he wasn't.  And he only missed one game with an injury (week 1 toe issue).  The other games he missed was from COVID and complications from it.  He wasn't the only Bill that happened to, but you don't see threads on here thrown them under the bus for it.  

 

Its just such an unreasonable and overly exaggerated amount of hate Star gets, yet all his teammates and coaches gush about him as a player on the field and off it.  

 

Given Star's age and last year of his contract, its not unreasonable to start looking at ways to replace him.  But there is no doubt about it, our defense was better with him on the field.  He gets more hate than he deserves.  

 

My expectation is that Beane looks towards the draft and targets a DT in the first 3 rounds.  Its a legit question on whether Star is on the roster this year or not, especially with the cap stuff.  But I expect him to finish his final year just given the cap savings are not much.  Could see Beane doing something creative too like you suggested.

 

Thanks bud. You're telling a story to yourself. Nobody is mentioning stats about Star and everyone knows what a 1-tech's responsibility is. What word would you prefer for me to use other than "production" to explain that he was slowly phased out of the defense last year?

 

Look at his snap counts. Even Brandon Beane agreed that Star struggled last year.

 

It's insane that you're comparing Tre White, a team captain who injured himself on the field, to a guy who chose to sit out a whole year, then skipped voluntary mini camps, and was never, ever named captain a single year of his career.

 

My guess is you're going to blame covid for everything. He skipped voluntary mini camps because of covid and skipped 2020 because of covid and got phased out of the defense because of covid ... at what point does he have to take responsibility for getting worse and getting old?

 

[Brand J]

Are there any posters who feel Edmunds is pro bowl worthy and love his game, but want to move on from Star at all costs? I feel there’s a clear divide amongst this board with one side who feels less enamored with Edmunds and want Star off the team, versus the other who feels Edmunds is an impact defender and that Star is a force of a 1DT who consistently commands double teams.
Who believes one evaluation to be true, but not the other? 

[TheFunPolice]

When I saw Star in person at a local grocery store I was a bit disappointed in his lack of size for a DT.

 

I mean, he's a big guy, and huge for a normal dude, but I want to look at the sheer mass of our 1T DT and say "wow!" in a slightly concerned but still admiring way. 

 

 

 

 

[Brand J]

4 minutes ago, TheFunPolice said:

When I saw Star in person at a local grocery store I was a bit disappointed in his lack of size for a DT.

 

I mean, he's a big guy, and huge for a normal dude, but I want to look at the sheer mass of our 1T DT and say "wow!" in a slightly concerned but still admiring way. 

 

 

 

 

I think his size has always been overrated. He’s only 6’2” 315 and looked the lightest he’s been to start the year. The start of this season was also the best he’s ever looked in Buffalo, the fire and hunger seemed to be there.

 

By comparison Ted Washington was 6’5” 365, a literal “big” difference.

Edited February 22, 2022 by JayBaller10

[BADOLBILZ]

5 hours ago, First Round Bust said:

most of us want to move on from Star, but according to Joe B (Athletic - small extract below) likely have to keep one more year...

 

warning lots of math and accounting ...not for those easily bored with facts and budgets who want to sign free sexy agents.

 

We have just learned...because of his salary renegotiation before he opted out, $2.5 million of his base salary was automatically guaranteed for the upcoming season, now would be taking a dead-money cap hit of $7.7 million and basically robbing themselves of both the cap space and the player. due to only $700,000 in potential cap savings, it may not add up to releasing him outright.

 

Bills can make the best of a difficult situation by negotiating a pay cut with Lotulelei for 2022.

Even though Lotulelei’s play wasn’t as good late in the season, his value to the Bills is likely worth much more than $700k in cap space they’d save.

 

By cutting and replace with someone who hasn’t been in their system or is inexperienced and likely at a similar cost to the cap space saved. That should be motivation enough to strike a renegotiated deal with Lotulelei. From the player’s perspective, as a 32-year-old, his best chance for maximizing his money is likely in Buffalo.

 

base salary for 2022 is $6.15 million, $2.5 million of which is already guaranteed. If Bills ask Lotulelei to reduce that base salary by $1.5 million to $2 million and ensure the remainder, that would lock in Lotulelei between $4.15 million and $4.65 million guaranteed for the upcoming season with the chance to earn $350,000 more in per-game roster bonuses.

 

Star likely would not come close to $4.15 million to $5 million on the open market and team already saves a minimum of $1.5 million on the 2022 salary cap, more than double what they would have saved by releasing him outright, plus they get to keep the player.

 

Additionally, can convert all but around $1 million of that renegotiated salary into a signing bonus and prorate it over the next two seasons. A negotiated pay cut of $1.5 million and that base salary conversion would save Bills a total of around $3.3 million on the 2022 cap, more than quadruple what they would save by releasing Lotulelei outright.

 

Reduces 2023 cap savings to move on from Lotulelei, they would still be able to save about $4.5 million to cut him next offseason...can kick the can down the road another year and not have to draft a DT with a higher pick this year  given Oliver's ascension (likely to pick up option) Harry (hoping to resign) Zimmer (depth- rehab ACL) Bryan (resigned for two year not just one - two pressures on 15 pass rushes plus position flex) and now Star...other than mid-late round PS stash would could be poached by other teams

 

 

 

The Bills are nearly at the point in their build where they are always going to be borrowing money against future cap dollars.

 

That being the case...........you can't look at it simply as "well if we cut him now we only save $700K or $1.5M in cap space right now".................when keeping him this season also entails giving him $4.1M more in real dollars that count against their overall cap figure for the next 2 seasons.

 

Cutting him before his roster bonus kicks in saves $4.1M total over the next 2 years of the salary cap regardless of how they choose to account for it.

 

So the question is..........is he worth $4.1M in additional cap space at this point.

 

 

 

 

[brianthomas]

who knows, maybe we'll have the zedicron variant of covid this season & Star will opt out again & we'll have to deal with him for even longer lol.

GO BILLS

[BarleyNY]

9 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

The Bills are nearly at the point in their build where they are always going to be borrowing money against future cap dollars.

 

That being the case...........you can't look at it simply as "well if we cut him now we only save $700K or $1.5M in cap space right now".................when keeping him this season also entails giving him $4.1M more in real dollars that count against their overall cap figure for the next 2 seasons.

 

Cutting him before his roster bonus kicks in saves $4.1M total over the next 2 years of the salary cap regardless of how they choose to account for it.

 

So the question is..........is he worth $4.1M in additional cap space at this point.

 

 

 

 

I’d say no, but I’d want his replacement in house before cutting him.  The Bills have some time there.  I corrected my earlier comment about the roster bonus being due in March.  He has had March roster bonuses in prior years and has one in 2023.  In 2022 he just has per game roster bonuses for being on the active roster.

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Maybe the worst contract in franchise history, definitely the worst in Beane’s tenure.  And that’s saying something considering he paid several million dollars for two weeks of Corey Coleman.

 

Lotulelei is the worst Bills free agent signing contract ever.

 

Some would argue Derrick Dockery.........but in reality he was an every snap player who answered the bell every week as a Bill.......32-for-32...........and the proof in his value was quickly getting another long term deal at big dollars at his release (5 year $26M).

 

The contracts @Thurman#1mentioned are mostly random and impacted one salary cap season............Star has been killing the Bills books with middling play and then a lack of availability since 2019..........which is why Beane pay-cut him after that season in the first place.

 

Star right now is a league minimum player on the open market..........and that market would be very narrow............if the Bills cut him and he tries to continue on.........the likelihood is he doesn't have a spot on an opening day NFL roster and has to settle for week-to-week paychecks as a post week 1 re-sign or practice squander.

 

 

[TheFunPolice]

17 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

I think his size has always been overrated. He’s only 6’2” 315 and looked the lightest he’s been to start the year. The start of this season was also the best he’s ever looked in Buffalo, the fire and hunger seemed to be there.

 

By comparison Ted Washington was 6’5” 365, a literal “big” difference.

 

In my best Terrell Owens voice: "That's my DT!"

[Alphadawg7]

21 minutes ago, Rigotz said:

 

Thanks bud. You're telling a story to yourself. Nobody is mentioning stats about Star and everyone knows what a 1-tech's responsibility is. What word would you prefer for me to use other than "production" to explain that he was slowly phased out of the defense last year?

 

Look at his snap counts. Even Brandon Beane agreed that Star struggled last year.

 

It's insane that you're comparing Tre White, a team captain who injured himself on the field, to a guy who chose to sit out a whole year, then skipped voluntary mini camps, and was never, ever named captain a single year of his career.

 

My guess is you're going to blame covid for everything. He skipped voluntary mini camps because of covid and skipped 2020 because of covid and got phased out of the defense because of covid ... at what point does he have to take responsibility for getting worse and getting old?

 

 

I am not comparing Tre, you clearly misunderstood the point.  I mean I literally wrote "of course not" right after that because that would be such a silly notion.  

 

And I am not telling a story to myself.  Star played most the season, our defense was better when he was on the field, and Beane literally stated COVID hit him hard and affected his play down the stretch compared to before he got COVID where he was playing quite well.  

 

No disrespect, but you need to get over him sitting out 2020.  The amount of people hung up on that is just ridiculous.  And its even more ridiculous to complain about the "voluntary" mini camps when Star came into camp in incredible shape and played at a very high level from his first game (week 2) until he was knocked out with COVID later in the season.  The mini camp skip literally had nothing, not one ounce of impact on Star or his ability to play.  To keep whining about it is so pointless I dont know what anyone wastes the time.  

 

And it doesn't matter what anyones stance is on COVID, the fact remains, everyone is affected differently.  To hold it against Star, when Beane himself literally stated that COVID hit him hard and had lingering issues that impacted his play, is just unfair to him.  And he wasn't the only Bill that happened to.  

[GETTOTHE50]

Idc about the cap hit. I just want him off the team 

[TheFunPolice]

10 minutes ago, brianthomas said:

who knows, maybe we'll have the zedicron variant of covid this season & Star will opt out again & we'll have to deal with him for even longer lol.

GO BILLS

 

Us in 2030: The Bills can't really get out of Star's contract for another 2 years... 

[FilthyBeast]

I'm over the Star L. stuff but it's time to start trimming fat and making moves like the Chiefs who just dumped Anthony Hitchens in the first of many expected to moves to free up cap space so they can be players in FA.

 

 

[machine gun kelly]

Or we get lucky and we draft a 1 tech DR, and during camp he shines.  We swallow the hit as Star just doesn’t need to see the field anymore.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

6 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

One of the worst contracts in Bills history….Ironic from a regime that’s been pretty good. 

Trent Murphy agrees

[atlbillsfan1975]

3 hours ago, MJS said:

He would have been cut this off-season, but the NFL provided him an opt-out season. That's what really is screwing the Bills.

 

It was a bad contract, but the opt-out made it worse.

 

Oh well. The Bills will survive. Maybe Star will play better next season because apparently COVID recovery really held him back. He had some highlights before he got sick.

The only “highlight” for me was his sack in the playoff game against NE. The D played good early and I thought Star’s play had something to do with that, but he didn’t make any big plays himself. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

8 hours ago, First Round Bust said:

most of us want to move on from Star, but according to Joe B (Athletic - small extract below) likely have to keep one more year...

 

warning lots of math and accounting ...not for those easily bored with facts and budgets who want to sign free sexy agents.

 

We have just learned...because of his salary renegotiation before he opted out, $2.5 million of his base salary was automatically guaranteed for the upcoming season, now would be taking a dead-money cap hit of $7.7 million and basically robbing themselves of both the cap space and the player. due to only $700,000 in potential cap savings, it may not add up to releasing him outright.

 

Bills can make the best of a difficult situation by negotiating a pay cut with Lotulelei for 2022.

Even though Lotulelei’s play wasn’t as good late in the season, his value to the Bills is likely worth much more than $700k in cap space they’d save.

 

By cutting and replace with someone who hasn’t been in their system or is inexperienced and likely at a similar cost to the cap space saved. That should be motivation enough to strike a renegotiated deal with Lotulelei. From the player’s perspective, as a 32-year-old, his best chance for maximizing his money is likely in Buffalo.

 

base salary for 2022 is $6.15 million, $2.5 million of which is already guaranteed. If Bills ask Lotulelei to reduce that base salary by $1.5 million to $2 million and ensure the remainder, that would lock in Lotulelei between $4.15 million and $4.65 million guaranteed for the upcoming season with the chance to earn $350,000 more in per-game roster bonuses.

 

Star likely would not come close to $4.15 million to $5 million on the open market and team already saves a minimum of $1.5 million on the 2022 salary cap, more than double what they would have saved by releasing him outright, plus they get to keep the player.

 

Additionally, can convert all but around $1 million of that renegotiated salary into a signing bonus and prorate it over the next two seasons. A negotiated pay cut of $1.5 million and that base salary conversion would save Bills a total of around $3.3 million on the 2022 cap, more than quadruple what they would save by releasing Lotulelei outright.

 

Reduces 2023 cap savings to move on from Lotulelei, they would still be able to save about $4.5 million to cut him next offseason...can kick the can down the road another year and not have to draft a DT with a higher pick this year  given Oliver's ascension (likely to pick up option) Harry (hoping to resign) Zimmer (depth- rehab ACL) Bryan (resigned for two year not just one - two pressures on 15 pass rushes plus position flex) and now Star...other than mid-late round PS stash would could be poached by other teams

 

 

I don't think Joe B is correct, if those numbers are from him (please link when referencing articles

 

It's not something "just learned" it was known since 2020 when he renegotiated

 

Spotrac and Overthecap both have info

 

Star has a cap hit of $9.226M.  Of that, $7.7 is dead cap, meaning there would be a $1.5M savings for cutting him pre-June 1 (not $700k as you state and imply is Joe B's work.

 

The dead cap consists of $2.5M guaranteed salary from this season, $2.6M signing bonus amortized to this season, and $2.6M signing bonus amortized to next season.  So if the Bills are willing to eat $2.6M of dead cap next season, they can designate him a post-June1 cut and save $4.1M ($1.5M + $2.6M of 2023 amortized bonus) against the cap this season.

 

I don't know how Beane/McDermott/Frazier feel about Lotulelei, but I'm not a fan of guaranteeing him more money. 

And if Star feels he's worth more than $2.1M on the open market, then if he wants more $$, he has little motivation to re-negotiate for $4.65M salary.  He can just say "cut me, I take my $2.5M and go see what someone else will pay me"  If he doesn't have offset language in his contract (in general, his contracts seem to take the Bills to the cleaners, so that's my guess) then if another team pays him more than $2.15M he gets more by being cut and adding it to the $2.5M the Bills guaranteed him.

 

I'm not sure who $4.1M of cap hit this year would sign us, but that's starting to get into serious money, especially if it's someone to whom we are willing to offer a multi-year deal (caveat: a post-June1 designation means the cap savings don't count until after June 1)