Rumored Giants Players Available for Trade

[Norcalbillsfan]

11 hours ago, CaptnCoke11 said:

Barkley is very very intriguing but the injury history is very worrisome for me.  
 

Id love to have a healthy barkley, but he will be too expensive. Trades like that are tough on a gm, if beane trades for Barkley and shells out the money and the bills dominate the nfl and lose the afc title game then fans and media will be grabbing pitch forks and torches. If beane makes the trade and the bills win the Superbowl he's a genius and it's one of the greatest trades in bills history. It would be a risky move by a gm.

[BADOLBILZ]

18 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Toney is interesting.  He does have some Tyreek Hill to him which Beane repeatedly made reference to looking for, not quite as fast but incredibly quick.  They’d have to be convinced they can absorb the personality.  If so, I wonder if they’d send someone like Epenesa in a trade - would not shock me to see him used as trade collateral for someone this offseason.  Even though they’d be dealing him at a lowered value, he’s a cost-controlled asset at a premium position and the Bills may not have space for him (or a coherent plan for what to do with him).

 

He's got the elusiveness of Hill at the catch point but not the elite jets.

 

He's closer to Peter Warrick 2.0 than Tyreek Hill........which is a big difference, IMO.

 

If there isn't a character issue I think Toney probably has early 3rd round trade value in what is yet another very good WR 2022 draft.

 

Epenesa is probably more like a late 5th or 6th round value in a good edge draft at this point.   He's not produced as a pass rusher and has been pretty bad against the run and only has 2 years of team control left.    Worth more to the Bills than anyone at this point, IMO.   But if someone might over-value him it could be a former Bills personnel man with insight on him maybe being close to a breakout season or something.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

19 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Yes, Addison was overpaid. My point is that it was not a prohibitive cap hit. If we take on Barkley's one year cap hit and cut Addison, it's a wash. And I believe the impact Barkley would have on the team would be substantially greater than Addison's impact has been.

 

Um, Addison is a free agent this season.  The $2M that still shows next to his name is amortized signing bonus tacked onto a void year.  Addison took a 2M pay cut last season in exchange for the Bills shortening his contract by 1 year and guaranteeing his 2021 salary.

 

The other difference is that last season, even though we were jammed up against the cap due to the Covid cap reduction, we were still dealing with Allen and Edmunds on rookie deals.  So that's two players adding $30M of cap right there, as well as other valued players coming into the more expensive last year(s) of their deals

 

If we want to upgrade our biggest needs - which I see as OL and DL, with a shout-out to CB and the need to add another receiver - we have to be very judicious with cap space.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

15 hours ago, BarleyNY said:

I’d think there would be little to do with the NYG as far as player trades.  With a new regime the two big drivers usually are:

- Poor scheme fit of existing players.  As I’d expect Daboll to require similar skill sets to those on our roster I’d expect him to be getting rid of players that don’t fit our system.  He might want to acquire players from us, but we really don’t have anyone of high value to give up.  Maybe just looking at a depth player with upside.

- Shedding older, higher priced vets to purge cap.  Really don’t see the fit here.  We aren’t looking to take on many big contracts. 

I see pick for picks draft weekend trades as more likely.

 

This is an interesting point.  You're only looking at one side of the ball here, though.  Wink Martindale may see poor scheme fits on the Giants defense, who might be better fits for the Bills defense.

 

On offense, I don't see it as beyond possibility that BECAUSE Daboll may require similar skills on offense, Daboll might be interested in picking up a couple players from the Bills who might help him instill his culture and teach his system.  Bobby Johnson might be interested in taking (say) Feliciano with him as new OL coaches usually seem to want to bring in a couple of "their guys" to help teach their techniques, and Feliciano brings a lot of "juice" to the field.  Daboll might want Beasley as that crafty veteran who could school Daniel Jones about option routes as he schooled Allen

 

But will Kafka be running the same type of routes and have that same need for the surgical slot guy who can run options and secondary route concepts?  Does Dorsey (or Brady as pass coordinator) have the same value for Beasley that Daboll did, and would want to keep him?  Was all the kerfluffle about booing fans and NFL fines wearing Beane and McDermott's "last nerve"?  Just don't know.

 

I don't see it as impossible that we could see a few trades.  (Heh.  Beasley and Feliciano for Saquon Barkley 😈)

[HappyDays]

27 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

Um, Addison is a free agent this season.  The $2M that still shows next to his name is amortized signing bonus tacked onto a void year.  Addison took a 2M pay cut last season in exchange for the Bills shortening his contract by 1 year and guaranteeing his 2021 salary.

 

I know. I'm not explaining myself well. Simply put I don't believe a $7 million cap hit is a huge deal. It isn't going to be the difference in missing out on an impact player. But the upside on taking that risk is limitless. If Barkley two years removed from his ACL injury gets anywhere near his early career form, that cap hit will be a bargain. If he doesn't, oh well. Teams in their championship window have to take gambles. I'm not asking us to become the Rams. But we are at least one game changing player away from being a true Super Bowl favorite. There are two ways to get game changing players short of hitting the jackpot in the draft - sell the farm for a guaranteed impact player by trading high draft picks or handing out a massive FA contract; or take a high risk/high upside chance at a small to moderate cost. With the Bills as currently constructed I think the second option is more realistic. Barkley would be a risk but not one that greatly affects the way we would be able to attack the offseason IMO. And the upside is that our offense becomes practically unstoppable.

 

27 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

If we want to upgrade our biggest needs - which I see as OL and DL, with a shout-out to CB and the need to add another receiver - we have to be very judicious with cap space.

 

$7 million isn't upgrading our OL or DL or CB room all that much... That was my point with Addison. You could double Barkley's cap hit and still you'd still pay him less than the trio of Vernon Butler, AJ Klein, and Jon Feliciano in 2021. I mean if there was some hypothetical scenario where a premier pass rusher became available for trade and we had to structure our whole offseason around making sure that player fit into the cap, of course I would say forget about Barkley. But assuming we're talking about a normal offseason with a few low tier signings to fill in gaps, then yes I take on Barkley's contract in a heartbeat and build those other positions through the draft.

 

Going back to the example of the Rams they are $8 million over the cap in 2022 and I don't see anyone freaking out that they won't be able to have an offseason. We're talking about $7.2 million with zero risk past this coming season. That is the kind of cap space that good GMs with generous owners are easily able to find by moving a few numbers around.

 

Edited February 9, 2022 by HappyDays

[Hapless Bills Fan]

43 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

No they SAY you are crazy or senseless for thinking that the Bills can trade for him and just simply re-work his contract to lower his cap hit. 

 

It makes absolutely zero sense for the player to do so unless the contract extension is close to what he could expect if he repeated his 2018 stats in 2022.........plus, of course, the $7.2M he is otherwise guaranteed in full for 2022.

 

The only way Barkley gets traded is an NBA style salary cap dump........the Giants are so up against the salary cap they aren't even in position to just do a bad contract swap.

 

I just sardonically proposed a contract swap in another post, but I think Badol is correct on this point.  If Barkley believes he has it in him to return to his 2018 or his pre-injury 2019 form, then he has almost no impetus at all to re-work his contract for a lower cap hit.  The smart financial move for him is to "bet on himself", play out his contract, and hope for a big year that will give him a big second contract.

 

That said, the "almost" is that he'd likely prefer to be traded to a team with a good OL that can give him his best chance to showcase his skills.  He might be willing to "give" a bit to make that happen (the Bills OL wouldn't be a team I'd pine for, if I were an elite RB, though).  But this year is a little bit unusual in that there are a handful of contending teams with  cap space a plenty. 

 

I took a quick look at the Giants roster to see if there are players they might see as bad scheme fits and trade or just cut to clear cap, and I think there might be a couple scheme mis-matches for Wink Martindale's D who could clear quite a bit of cap for them, maybe $20-25M, but unsure.  If that's right, though, it's possible that Daboll would want to keep Barkley.

[BADOLBILZ]

10 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

$7 million isn't upgrading our OL or DL or CB room all that much...

 

 

 

I think Khalil Mack played on a $2M base salary last season.

 

If you are willing to backload a deal you can easily get a Von Miller in with $7M in cap room..........that is how valuable that much cap room is.

 

I know there are runnin' back truthers on TSW but once again the lead RB's in the SB are bit players...........if they have a big game it will be because of their OL or their passing game opening up the LOS or their defense controlling the game.    RB's are bit players HEAVILY reliant on a number of other players excelling at their job.

 

Pass rushers on the other hand........those are individual difference makers in the NFL.

 

The one-on-one battles are your best chance to make game changing plays in the NFL and with rare exception(like Aaron Donald) those big play opportunities come from edge and island positions so that's the difference between giving an arrow down trajectory Saquon Barkley the same cap space as Mario Addison who was coming off a 10 sack season with Carolina.

 

 

[dave mcbride]

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I think Khalil Mack played on a $2M base salary last season.

 

If you are willing to backload a deal you can easily get a Von Miller in with $7M in cap room..........that is how valuable that much cap room is.

 

I know there are runnin' back truthers on TSW but once again the lead RB's in the SB are bit players...........if they have a big game it will be because of their OL or their passing game opening up the LOS or their defense controlling the game.    RB's are bit players HEAVILY reliant on a number of other players excelling at their job.

 

Pass rushers on the other hand........those are individual difference makers in the NFL.

 

The one-on-one battles are your best chance to make game changing plays in the NFL and with rare exception(like Aaron Donald) those big play opportunities come from edge and island positions so that's the difference between giving an arrow down trajectory Saquon Barkley the same cap space as Mario Addison who was coming off a 10 sack season with Carolina.

 

 

Gotta disagree on one thing here: Joe Mixon is a STUD and hands-down one of the best RBs in the league. He had 16 TDs and led the team in yards from scrimmage (1,519). It's impossible to argue that he's a bit player in that offense. Moreover, he's an initimdating, fast, bruising RB with good vision who commands attention. Forget about the ypc -- just look at how he opens thing up for the passing game. KC certainly keyed on him in the AFC championship game, and he handled the ball on 24 out of 66 offensive plays (36.3 percent of the time). I'm not a RB truther either! I mostly agree with you.  

 

In fact, I've said before that if the Bills were to be gifted just one RB from another team, he'd be my pick.

Edited February 9, 2022 by dave mcbride

[Coach Tuesday]

24 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Gotta disagree on one thing here: Joe Mixon is a STUD and hands-down one of the best RBs in the league. He had 16 TDs and led the team in yards from scrimmage (1,519). It's impossible to argue that he's a bit player in that offense. Moreover, he's an initimdating, fast, bruising RB with good vision who commands attention. Forget about the ypc -- just look at how he opens thing up for the passing game. KC certainly keyed on him in the AFC championship game, and he handled the ball on 24 out of 66 offensive plays (36.3 percent of the time). I'm not a RB truther either! I mostly agree with you.  

 

In fact, I've said before that if the Bills were to be gifted just one RB from another team, he'd be my pick.

 

Agree, but worth repeating that he was a second round pick.

[dave mcbride]

2 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

Agree, but worth repeating that he was a second round pick.

Yeah, and there was a reason he was a second-round pick ...

[HappyDays]

3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I think Khalil Mack played on a $2M base salary last season.

 

If you are willing to backload a deal you can easily get a Von Miller in with $7M in cap room..........that is how valuable that much cap room is.

 

I know there are runnin' back truthers on TSW but once again the lead RB's in the SB are bit players...........if they have a big game it will be because of their OL or their passing game opening up the LOS or their defense controlling the game.    RB's are bit players HEAVILY reliant on a number of other players excelling at their job.

 

Pass rushers on the other hand........those are individual difference makers in the NFL.

 

The one-on-one battles are your best chance to make game changing plays in the NFL and with rare exception(like Aaron Donald) those big play opportunities come from edge and island positions so that's the difference between giving an arrow down trajectory Saquon Barkley the same cap space as Mario Addison who was coming off a 10 sack season with Carolina.

 

 

 

And again, if we have a chance to sign or trade for a premier pass rusher then I absolutely take that opportunity over Barkley. But I just don't agree that that cap space given to Addison is more valuable than that cap space given to Barkley. Addison is not a difference maker, he's a rotational piece. That's what $8 million usually gets you from an edge rusher. Barkley has a chance to be a real difference maker for the team. Give Barkley the ball instead of Singletary on that 3rd and short against KC and I think he picks it up because he has speed to get around the edge. With Singletary it becomes a wasted down and we punt. That one play alone may be the difference between a win and a loss. I'm not a RB truther but you take it too far in the other direction by trying to argue that RB talent doesn't matter at all. Barkley being here doesn't mean we have to become a run first team. It just gives our offense another option when defenses are selling out to stop the pass, not to mention another pass catching weapon.

[dave mcbride]

1 minute ago, HappyDays said:

 

And again, if we have a chance to sign or trade for a premier pass rusher then I absolutely take that opportunity over Barkley. But I just don't agree that that cap space given to Addison is more valuable than that cap space given to Barkley. Addison is not a difference maker, he's a rotational piece. That's what $8 million usually gets you from an edge rusher. Barkley has a chance to be a real difference maker for the team. Give Barkley the ball instead of Singletary on that 3rd and short against KC and I think he picks it up because he has speed to get around the edge. With Singletary it becomes a wasted down and we punt. That one play alone may be the difference between a win and a loss. I'm not a RB truther but you take it too far in the other direction by trying to argue that RB talent doesn't matter at all. Barkley being here doesn't mean we have to become a run first team. It just gives our offense another option when defenses are selling out to stop the pass, not to mention another pass catching weapon.

Barkley was a phenomenal receiver before getting hurt. If he does get back to 100 percent, he's as good as Kamara in that category.  

[HappyDays]

1 minute ago, dave mcbride said:

Barkley was a phenomenal receiver before getting hurt. If he does get back to 100 percent, he's as good as Kamara in that category.  

 

Yes for some reason everyone talks about RBs only in the context of what they bring to the run game. In the EP offense they should also be weapons in the passing game (think New England all those years with James White). Singletary and Moss get stuck in the mud after catching a pass so their value on those plays is limited.

[dave mcbride]

41 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

And again, if we have a chance to sign or trade for a premier pass rusher then I absolutely take that opportunity over Barkley. But I just don't agree that that cap space given to Addison is more valuable than that cap space given to Barkley. Addison is not a difference maker, he's a rotational piece. That's what $8 million usually gets you from an edge rusher. Barkley has a chance to be a real difference maker for the team. Give Barkley the ball instead of Singletary on that 3rd and short against KC and I think he picks it up because he has speed to get around the edge. With Singletary it becomes a wasted down and we punt. That one play alone may be the difference between a win and a loss. I'm not a RB truther but you take it too far in the other direction by trying to argue that RB talent doesn't matter at all. Barkley being here doesn't mean we have to become a run first team. It just gives our offense another option when defenses are selling out to stop the pass, not to mention another pass catching weapon.

Here's my take on RB value, such as it is. Good RBs do three things:

 

1) They run the rock enough and effectively enough to get d-lines prone to moving sideways to stop running plays rather than pinning their ears back and getting after the QB. Doing this effectively does three things: sets up play action, regularly gets you 2-3 yards when you really need it, and opens up the passing game by taking some pressure off of your o-line in pass blocking. 

 

2) They turn the ball over at a very low rate. Pass plays are far less safe than running plays, or at least they should be. INTs and QB fumbles make up the vast bulk of turnovers for just about every team, so if you want safe plays where the possibility of turning it over is very small, you run the ball. Good backs behind effective lines then do two things for you -- get you somewhere between 4 and 4.7 ypc on average and *hang onto the ball*. Running plays are your safe plays, and you need them. That's why RBs who fumble at a higher-than-average rate are kicked to the curb. When you wonder why TJ Yeldon or Matt Brieda has a sloppy fumble and doesn't see the field again, this is why. It's unacceptable for the running game to become a risky approach to moving the ball. You accept fumbles with WRs and QBs because the risk/reward ratio is very different.  (Regarding ypc, bear in mind that scoring a lot of rushing TDs is going to reduce your ypc average a tad. Most rushing TDs come from close in, and if you're a back that has a dozen rushing TDs, it'll bring your average down a peg or two. Also, a couple of breakaway runs can really skew ypc. You want backs with breakaway ability, but that's not what you should be counting on--they're pretty rare events.)

 

3) Good ones serve as receivers who will catch it close to 80 percent of the time. They ypc will be lower than a WR, obviously, but the catch rate will be a fair bit higher. They are safer options to at least produce something on a play-by-play basis and can keep the chains moving.  You need safe plays. Just look at the Pats over the years.

 

When viewed this way, it's pretty easy to see why they're valuable players. I think the reason they're not really worth first round picks isn't so much because of the position, but because two of the traits -- holding onto the ball and getting safe positive yards -- are very hard to predict because of the vast difference between NFL defenses and college defenses as well as college o-lines and pro o-lines.  Terrel Davis (injured in college) went in the sixth partly because no one could really project that he'd be the greatest RB ever within one very specific o-line scheme. The other reason to avoid them in the first is because no players get injured more frequently than RBs, or so it seems. Their shelf lives are short, and unlike a DE or LT, the chance of that guy being a cornerstone for 8-10 years is very small. If an elite back like Mixon is there in the second, he's great value because you're not on the hook for a big salary or even the fifth year. With a great player in the second, you're getting 4 or so elite years (Le'Veon Bell is the classic case here). After that, investing in that player is paying good money for past production. Barkley, Gurley, and Etienne tell you all you need to know about drafting one in the first. Gurley was worth it for nearly four years, but the injury that appears to have ended his career set in near the end of his 4th year. Of course, the Rams stupidly gave him a big second contract.

 

Finally Ezekiel Elliot is instructive. He had four very good years, and the Cowboys then decided to pay him a lot of money for past results. He's probably the second best back on the team now. They did get four good years, but if he had been a second rounder, he may well have walked and the Cowboys could look at him as a perfect investment. But they did the opposite: drafted him early in the first and gave him a big second contract. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/E/ElliEz00.htm . (Bear in mind he was suspended for six games in his second year.)

Edited February 9, 2022 by dave mcbride

[Victory Formation]

Feliciano and a 3rd for Toney, straight up!

[JimBob2232]

I wouldn't mind trying Barkley - but at what cost?  A 3rd or 4th rounder?  Sure.  But will they let him go that cheaply?

 

[Victory Formation]

14 minutes ago, JimBob2232 said:

I wouldn't mind trying Barkley - but at what cost?  A 3rd or 4th rounder?  Sure.  But will they let him go that cheaply?

 

I started a thread a few months ago about Barkley. Honestly, I think a conditional 3rd in 2023 would get it done, but honestly, I think I would rather have Toney than Barkley.

They did hire Bobby Johnson our old OL coach, maybe Feliciano would get it done? I know the Giants need some serious help on the OL and Johnson/Feliciano have known each other since 2015. Cody Ford could be an option too. In that event, Buffalo should just sign Bates to a cheap 2 year deal and draft a guy.
 

 

[dave mcbride]

14 minutes ago, Victory Formation said:

I started a thread a few months ago about Barkley. Honestly, I think a conditional 3rd in 2023 would get it done, but honestly, I think I would rather have Toney than Barkley.

They did hire Bobby Johnson our old OL coach, maybe Feliciano would get it done? I know the Giants need some serious help on the OL and Johnson/Feliciano have known each other since 2015. Cody Ford could be an option too. In that event, Buffalo should just sign Bates to a cheap 2 year deal and draft a guy.
 

 

A healthy Barkley would be FAR more valuable to the Bills than Toney. But I don't know how healthy he is or will be going forward. No one here does. When healthy, he's a generational talent who can do it all from the RB position; Toney is merely a talent. 

Edited February 9, 2022 by dave mcbride

[Victory Formation]

2 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

A healthy Barkley would be FAR more valuable to the Bills than Toney. But I don't know how healthy he is or will be going forward. No one here does. When healthy, he's a generational talent who can do it all from the RB position; Toney is merely a talent. 

I would not argue against either of them, but in the end I would hope for a player for player trade. Barkley interests me, Toney interests me, I would take both of them if I could! I wonder if they would be interested in any of the following players:

 

1. Jon Feliciano
2. Cody Ford
3. Tremaine Edmunds
4. Cole Beasley
5. Zack Moss
6. AJ Epenesa

 

 

[OZBILLS]

Toney ain't no culture guy.

 

I am all for it

[Big Turk]

On 2/7/2022 at 11:22 AM, SCBills said:

Kadarius Toney

 

Saquon Barkley

 

James Bradberry 

 

With Schoen over at NYG, any of these guys interest anyone here?

 

For me personally, I'd offer a 2nd Rounder for Toney.  Still on a rookie deal, 1st RD Pick last year.  Not the same player as Tyreek Hill in terms of speed, but similar playmaking ability out of the slot.  

 

I really like Toney...had him on my Dynasty fantasy team and he did well

[BADOLBILZ]

5 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

Gotta disagree on one thing here: Joe Mixon is a STUD and hands-down one of the best RBs in the league. He had 16 TDs and led the team in yards from scrimmage (1,519). It's impossible to argue that he's a bit player in that offense. Moreover, he's an initimdating, fast, bruising RB with good vision who commands attention. Forget about the ypc -- just look at how he opens thing up for the passing game. KC certainly keyed on him in the AFC championship game, and he handled the ball on 24 out of 66 offensive plays (36.3 percent of the time). I'm not a RB truther either! I mostly agree with you.  

 

In fact, I've said before that if the Bills were to be gifted just one RB from another team, he'd be my pick.

 

 

Yeah..........don't look at Joe Mixon's highly unimpressive 4.1 yards per carry in 2021.........which also happens to be his career ypc.

 

In fact, don't look at Cinci's rushing stats at all..........bottom 3rd of the NFL in yards per carry and rushing yards total.

 

We clearly have a different idea of what "a STUD" player is.........IMO that's a players whose impact is very hard to replace at the very least......Cinci could play action to a WHOLE LOTTA RB's and still be elite passing the ball and bottom 3rd of the league running it.

 

Mixon doesn't change my point anymore than Leonard Fournette did last year.    They are very much interchangeable players.

[BADOLBILZ]

5 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

And again, if we have a chance to sign or trade for a premier pass rusher then I absolutely take that opportunity over Barkley. But I just don't agree that that cap space given to Addison is more valuable than that cap space given to Barkley. Addison is not a difference maker, he's a rotational piece. That's what $8 million usually gets you from an edge rusher. Barkley has a chance to be a real difference maker for the team. Give Barkley the ball instead of Singletary on that 3rd and short against KC and I think he picks it up because he has speed to get around the edge. With Singletary it becomes a wasted down and we punt. That one play alone may be the difference between a win and a loss. I'm not a RB truther but you take it too far in the other direction by trying to argue that RB talent doesn't matter at all. Barkley being here doesn't mean we have to become a run first team. It just gives our offense another option when defenses are selling out to stop the pass, not to mention another pass catching weapon.

 

 

Like I said..........Khalil Mack was under contract for a lower cap hit than that.........so yeah, that little bit of cap space can help you acquire a great player.     And not just at pass rusher.........that can help you ink a stud CB or WR........positions that actually change games in the NFL.

 

And remember...........Addison was coming off of a 10 sack season in Carolina when Beane gave him that contract.............Barkley was dogsh*t last year..........they couldn't be coming from more different positions of performance.

 

Pass rushers........and most other positions........are more impactful than RB's.............it's a passing league.  

 

The proof is in the contracts.  

 

People get confused when they see all the yards RB's accumulate and all of the touches they can get............they think that means they are dominating the action.

 

In reality an average of 4 yards every time you hand the ball off to a RB is a BIG sacrifice when you have a QB who can average 7-8 yards every time they THROW the ball.     And even an elite receiving RB only averages around 8-9 yards per reception compared to an average starting WR getting 11-12 yards.    That's why those RB yards/touches aren't really game changers in the NFL.    

[dave mcbride]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Yeah..........don't look at Joe Mixon's highly unimpressive 4.1 yards per carry in 2021.........which also happens to be his career ypc.

 

In fact, don't look at Cinci's rushing stats at all..........bottom 3rd of the NFL in yards per carry and rushing yards total.

 

We clearly have a different idea of what "a STUD" player is.........IMO that's a players whose impact is very hard to replace at the very least......Cinci could play action to a WHOLE LOTTA RB's and still be elite passing the ball and bottom 3rd of the league running it.

 

Mixon doesn't change my point anymore than Leonard Fournette did last year.    They are very much interchangeable players.

Ypc for RBs can be HIGHLY misleading, especially when they are supreme touchdown makers.  If you ain’t watching Mixon play in the actual games and you’re judging him on ypc, you’re missing something important. Teams key on him, and their o-line is not just bad, it’s terrible. Yet he remains a true difference maker. He is three times the player Singletary is regardless of ypc. And I don’t dislike Singletary at all.

Edited February 10, 2022 by dave mcbride

[FireChans]

On 2/7/2022 at 12:07 PM, HappyDays said:

Toney has major character issues, I doubt we'd be interested. If the Giants are shopping their 1st round pick after his rookie season that is a big red flag.

Joe Mixon punched a girl. He's in the Superbowl this week.

[dave mcbride]

10 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Like I said..........Khalil Mack was under contract for a lower cap hit than that.........so yeah, that little bit of cap space can help you acquire a great player.     And not just at pass rusher.........that can help you ink a stud CB or WR........positions that actually change games in the NFL.

 

And remember...........Addison was coming off of a 10 sack season in Carolina when Beane gave him that contract.............Barkley was dogsh*t last year..........they couldn't be coming from more different positions of performance.

 

Pass rushers........and most other positions........are more impactful than RB's.............it's a passing league.  

 

The proof is in the contracts.  

 

People get confused when they see all the yards RB's accumulate and all of the touches they can get............they think that means they are dominating the action.

 

In reality an average of 4 yards every time you hand the ball off to a RB is a BIG sacrifice when you have a QB who can average 7-8 yards every time they THROW the ball.     And even an elite receiving RB only averages around 8-9 yards per reception compared to an average starting WR getting 11-12 yards.    That's why those RB yards/touches aren't really game changers in the NFL.    

Passing plays produce way more turnovers and zero-yardage plays. There is a flow-of-game/ball control component to running games that is very important. See my post above about RB value. I think I’m probably right about this because every coach and GM in the league values good running back play. Where you can find that guy in the draft is a very different issue, as I mention above.

[HappyDays]

7 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Joe Mixon punched a girl. He's in the Superbowl this week.

 

Not to sound callous but Toney's issues are of the football character variety. Skipping voluntary OTAs as a rookie, missing or being late to meetings, etc. Doesn't sound like he's entirely devoted to the sport. It's a classic case of a GM completely failing to evaluate the person he was bringing into the locker room.

[FireChans]

12 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Not to sound callous but Toney's issues are of the football character variety. Skipping voluntary OTAs as a rookie, missing or being late to meetings, etc. Doesn't sound like he's entirely devoted to the sport. It's a classic case of a GM completely failing to evaluate the person he was bringing into the locker room.

Sounds like a young kid who could use a couple of veteran professional WR’s in a strong character oriented locker room to help him get straight.

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, dave mcbride said:

Passing plays produce way more turnovers and zero-yardage plays. There is a flow-of-game/ball control component to running games that is very important. See my post above about RB value. I think I’m probably right about this because every coach and GM in the league values good running back play. Where you can find that guy in the draft is a very different issue, as I mention above.

 

Oh you're very wrong.   HC and GM's don't value RB play.........that is evidenced by the pay scale and where they are drafted.    Those facts are not irrelevant, though it would be convenient for your argument to say so.

 

What teams value is utilizing the run to enhance the success of their passing game.  

 

You can do that with a good OL and adequate RB play.   It's been proven over and over for a couple decades now.

 

 

Edited February 10, 2022 by BADOLBILZ

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, dave mcbride said:

Ypc for RBs can be HIGHLY misleading, especially when they are supreme touchdown makers.  If you ain’t watching Mixon play in the actual games and you’re judging him on ypc, you’re missing something important. Teams key on him, and their o-line is not just bad, it’s terrible. Yet he remains a true difference maker. He is three times the player Singletary is regardless of ypc. And I don’t dislike Singletary at all.

 

You know I watch a ton of NFL football.   I know who that miscreant Joe Mixon is and I know that he is NOT "three times the player" that Singletary is.    That is ridiculous hyperbole thrown out there to try to pad an argument that really has little merit.   The same arguments were made last year for Leonard Fournette.   Like I said, those two jokers are peas in a pod as players.   Are they marginally more talented than Singletary........probably.........but who cares.   They are running backs.   Block it up.   There is always another one waiting in the wings.   As superman Derrick Henry found out when he was out performed by practice squader D'Onta Foreman in his absence this season.

 

 

Edited February 10, 2022 by BADOLBILZ

[Augie]

On 2/7/2022 at 11:22 AM, SCBills said:

Kadarius Toney

 

Saquon Barkley

 

James Bradberry 

 

With Schoen over at NYG, any of these guys interest anyone here?

 

For me personally, I'd offer a 2nd Rounder for Toney.  Still on a rookie deal, 1st RD Pick last year.  Not the same player as Tyreek Hill in terms of speed, but similar playmaking ability out of the slot.  

 

I started those rumors. I only made up two. The other one is fictional. 

 

 

 

.

Edited February 10, 2022 by Augie

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

Sounds like a young kid who could use a couple of veteran professional WR’s in a strong character oriented locker room to help him get straight.

 

Yeah... or we could just draft a player with a similar skill set on day 2, without the baggage and the 1st round contract. There are slightly less dynamic versions of Toney every year in round 2 and 3. This is the year I want the Bills to finally draft one.

[FireChans]

2 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Yeah... or we could just draft a player with a similar skill set on day 2, without the baggage and the 1st round contract. There are slightly less dynamic versions of Toney every year in round 2 and 3. This is the year I want the Bills to finally draft one.

Who?

[HappyDays]

Just now, FireChans said:

Who?

 

Calvin Austin

Skyy Moore

Wandale Robinson

Romeo Doubs

 

Just a few names off the top of my head. With the disclaimer that there are people on this board who can speak more to their value as prospects than I can, they are all agile/speed WRs that can line up in the slot and give us dynamic YAC ability.

 

I would never draft a player with that skill set in the 1st round and I wouldn't risk a character concern like I might for a premier position. It's too easy to fill that skill set later in the draft.

[HappyDays]

41 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

As superman Derrick Henry found out when he was out performed by practice squader D'Onta Foreman in his absence this season.

 

Yeah, this is straight up not true. With Derrick Henry on the field in the regular season the Titans averaged 28.4 PPG. After his injury they averaged 21.3 PPG. A full TD per game difference. I know there are other factors... but you can't ignore that stark discrepancy. This is why you can't just look at YPC. When Henry is on the field every defense is keyed in on him. His presence alone opens up other parts of the offense. That's what an elite RB brings to the table. Foreman was still good but Henry was a legitimate MVP candidate before his injury. In their playoff game against the Bengals he clearly was not ready to play at his normal caliber and their offense stalled out because of it. Good chance they would have cruised to the Super Bowl if Henry had never been injured. The difference between Henry at the top of his game and Foreman is worth 3 points which is all they needed in that game.

 

You're trying to convince people that RB is the one position where more talent doesn't matter. It's not going to happen. Everyone can see how elite RBs impact the game. If the Chiefs had drafted Jonathan Taylor instead of Clyde Edwards-Helaire they might be unstoppable right now. You're not going to convince anyone that upgrading the RB position is meaningless.

 

Edited February 10, 2022 by HappyDays

[BADOLBILZ]

17 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Yeah, this is straight up not true. With Derrick Henry on the field in the regular season the Titans averaged 28.4 PPG. After his injury they averaged 21.3 PPG. A full TD per game difference. I know there are other factors... but you can't ignore that stark discrepancy. This is why you can't just look at YPC. When Henry is on the field every defense is keyed in on him. His presence alone opens up other parts of the offense. That's what an elite RB brings to the table. Foreman was still good but Henry was a legitimate MVP candidate before his injury. In their playoff game against the Bengals he clearly was not ready to play at his normal caliber and their offense stalled out because of it. Good chance they would have cruised to the Super Bowl if Henry had never been injured. The difference between Henry at the top of his game and Foreman is worth 3 points which is all they needed in that game.

 

You're trying to convince people that RB is the one position where more talent doesn't matter. It's not going to happen. Everyone can see how elite RBs impact the game. If the Chiefs had drafted Jonathan Taylor instead of Clyde Edwards-Helaire they might be unstoppable right now. You're not going to convince anyone that upgrading the RB position is meaningless.

 

 

 

Henry wasn't a legit MVP candidate.........he was barely getting 4 yards per carry...........his play had dropped off considerably they were just feeding him the ball at a record clip and their WR corps was together early in the season so they were more dynamic.    Career scrub Foreman more than replicated what Henry brought to the table and the stark difference in what Henry is now versus Foreman was evident in the playoff game where Foreman made it look easy against the Bengals D.    Feeding Henry when he was clearly the less dynamic back stopped their offense in the playoffs,  not the Bengals defense.

 

The imaginary, incalculable impact of an elite RB is so great that their teams somehow never win SB's.     Henry himself has strung together 3 straight bad performances in the playoffs.    Remember when the Saints had Brees, all those receiving threats AND the amazing Alvin Kamara?    Then remember when they got beaten at home again and again in the playoffs?   If you need convincing then that's on you.   The facts are right there for you.

 

BTW that Jonathan Taylor guy...........he missed the playoffs entirely despite playing behind the highest draft pedigreed OL in NFL history........a #1 overall a #6 overall,  another mid-first rounder and a mid-second rounder.

 

Bottom line is.........giving the ball to a RB in the NFL is a necessary evil.........you can't replicate the impact of a well passed football by running the football........great production from a RB is a lot less than average production from the pass game.......when each touch gets more important in the playoffs that disparity is often magnified.

 

Sorry to say but it's not some kind of f*cking cheat code when you have what is considered an "elite" RB.  

[BillsShredder83]

Give me Toney! I'd prefer to pay less but would drop our 1st rder NO QUESTIONS ASKED

On 2/7/2022 at 11:50 AM, 17islongenough said:

Toney seemed like a head case.  Bills should give up a 6th for him

Based on what? I never saw anything that made me think it

[Buffalo03]

I don't see the Giants trading Barkley or Toney. If they are really gonna try to make it work for another season with Daniel Jones then why would they take away his weapons?

[dave mcbride]

10 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

You know I watch a ton of NFL football.   I know who that miscreant Joe Mixon is and I know that he is NOT "three times the player" that Singletary is.    That is ridiculous hyperbole thrown out there to try to pad an argument that really has little merit.   The same arguments were made last year for Leonard Fournette.   Like I said, those two jokers are peas in a pod as players.   Are they marginally more talented than Singletary........probably.........but who cares.   They are running backs.   Block it up.   There is always another one waiting in the wings.   As superman Derrick Henry found out when he was out performed by practice squader D'Onta Foreman in his absence this season.

 

 

At least you're not arguing that Mixon was a "bit player" in the AFC championship game anymore! I'll take that as a W.  

Edited February 10, 2022 by dave mcbride

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, dave mcbride said:

At least you're not arguing that Mixon was a "bit player" in the AFC championship game anymore! I'll take that as a W.  

 

No he's definitely a bit player.  

 

If Ja'Marr Chase goes down they simply can't replace him with an equally productive/impactful player.    

 

If Joe Mixon goes down they can find another guy to run for 4.1 yards off the street.   

 

The bottom line with RB's:   there is a sweet spot..........you find one good enough to produce when called upon........but not so intriguing that you feel compelled to "give him his touches".  

 

Devin Singletary totally checks those boxes if your target point in the run game is between the tackle and the guard.   He's ordinary on the eyes.........but he consistently outproduces most RB's when he gets the ball.

 

Joe Mixon is that guy who breaks off that exciting looking run that makes you think if you give him the ball more he will do that more...........while simultaneously forgetting why he always ends up with just 4 yards per carry every year.