Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[SoCal Deek]

1 hour ago, Tenhigh said:

That is not what the US was doing though. Our government was actively trying to get their preferred candidate elected in another country because he better aligned with their interest.  Do you think that is election interference?

Was it Putin? 😉

[JaCrispy]

11 hours ago, L Ron Burgundy said:

I can find articles on the internet that say chemicals in the water are making people gay.  The US supporting pro west factions and being responsible for the ousting of Yanukovich are not the same.  Him winning fairly would be like Trump winning New York.  He was hated and it was widely known Russia owned him.  

You mean like the US owns Zelensky, after helping to overthrow the Ukrainian government in favor of a puppet leader to do America’s bidding?

 

Gee, where have I heard this broken record before? 🤔

[Precision]

8 hours ago, SCBills said:

But we’re the good guys, right?… right!?

 

 

I think there's a lot of truth to the US not wanting this war to end to quickly and it goes beyond escalation. 

 

By managing the type and number weapons given to Ukraine the west can control the pace of conflict.  Through dragging this out Russia's capabilities are methodically being bled dry.  When the war eventually ends in Ukraine's favor Russia will militarily and economically be a shell of its former self.  The military assets untouched by the conflict will have limited use keeping restless states in line and I would expect the Russian Federation to fragment.  

 

What does this cost the US, a couple of billion dollars?  We piss away that kind of money without blinking an eye.  If a couple hundred thousand Ukrainians (and Russians) die no biggie, we'll just call it the "cost of freedom". 

[Tiberius]

11 hours ago, Tenhigh said:

That is not what the US was doing though. Our government was actively trying to get their preferred candidate elected in another country because he better aligned with their interest.  Do you think that is election interference?

Promoting free and fair elections is a good thing. Stop trying to make Putin look normalized. Just pathetic. 

[Tommy Callahan]

1 minute ago, Tiberius said:

Promoting free and fair elections is a good thing. Stop trying to make Putin look normalized. Just pathetic. 

the euro maiden was not a fair election. just saying. 

 

Maybe a revolution, maybe a coup.   but not a fair election.

 

 

 

 

[Tiberius]

2 minutes ago, Chris farley said:

the euro maiden was not a fair election. just saying. 

 

Maybe a revolution, maybe a coup.   but not a fair election.

 

 

 

 

Sure, sure 

[Tommy Callahan]

2 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Sure, sure 

So you are saying the euro maiden was a democratic process?

 

 

[Tiberius]

42 minutes ago, Chris farley said:

So you are saying the euro maiden was a democratic process?

 

 

I'm saying whatever it was does not excuss Putin for his mass murdering. 

 

So glad we have helped smash the Russia army. 

[Tommy Callahan]

12 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

I'm saying whatever it was does not excuss Putin for his mass murdering. 

 

So glad we have helped smash the Russia army. 

you said it was a democratic process, why pivot now?

 

and yes. I grasp you both enjoy and profit from war/carnage. 

 

 

[Tiberius]

7 minutes ago, Chris farley said:

you said it was a democratic process, why pivot now?

 

and yes. I grasp you both enjoy and profit from war/carnage. 

 

 

Love your boy Putin getting beat, that's for sure

 

You moving to Russia? 

[Tommy Callahan]

4 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Love your boy Putin getting beat, that's for sure

 

You moving to Russia? 

I don't think Putin is near the front lines. its people and soldiers being killed and maimed every minute of every day.

 

but like you said, its great for your investments in military industrial companies.

 

 

[Tiberius]

Just now, Chris farley said:

I don't think Putin is near the front lines. its people and soldiers being killed and maimed every minute of every day.

 

but like you said, its great for your investments in military industrial companies.

 

 

Yes, Trump's buddy, is waging this war and you want those opposing him to stop so he can burn and murder to his heart's content. Bless your heart 

[Tommy Callahan]

Just now, Tiberius said:

Yes, Trump's buddy, is waging this war and you want those opposing him to stop so he can burn and murder to his heart's content. Bless your heart 

yes tibs. for the people in that area, I hope the WAR stops.

 

The goal of every government is to protect the general welfare of the population.  IE, peace.

 

But understand how many are invested and make profits off carnage.

 

you bringing the orange dude into every comment, is you projecting or something. 

[Tiberius]

15 minutes ago, Chris farley said:

yes tibs. for the people in that area, I hope the WAR stops.

 

The goal of every government is to protect the general welfare of the population.  IE, peace.

 

But understand how many are invested and make profits off carnage.

 

you bringing the orange dude into every comment, is you projecting or something. 

It will stop, but not before the invaders--that you support--are thrown the f out. 

[Tommy Callahan]

50 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

It will stop, but not before the invaders--that you support--are thrown the f out. 

I don't support any side or illegal wars in general.

 

 

you have a great day living in this fine country where we don't have bombs raining down on us and we can argue about things like rights and the cultural issues of the day.

 

 

[Tenhigh]

5 hours ago, Tiberius said:

Promoting free and fair elections is a good thing. Stop trying to make Putin look normalized. Just pathetic. 

Lol, Putin is a POS but you are an ostrich.  It's not the 1000% black and white scenario in your silly head.  Do you really think that NONE of the West's actions have had any effect on Putin's invasion?  

[B-Man]

31 minutes ago, Tenhigh said:

Lol, Putin is a POS but you are an ostrich.  It's not the 1000% black and white scenario in your silly head. 
Do you really think

 

that NONE of the West's actions have had any effect on Putin's invasion?  

There’s your mistake Tenhigh. 
 

He doesn’t think,  he regurgitates slogans over and over. 
 

 

 

 

[Tiberius]

1 hour ago, Tenhigh said:

Lol, Putin is a POS but you are an ostrich.  It's not the 1000% black and white scenario in your silly head.  Do you really think that NONE of the West's actions have had any effect on Putin's invasion?  

I don't blame the west because Putin's is a mass murderer. I get you know Putin wants your side to win, so you want deflect for him a bit. 

 

The mass murdering autocrat is to blame. Not the west at all

 

 

How dare we spread popular government and the rule of law! (Ya, I get that you think our system is bad, whatever!) 

[Mynamemike]

https://www.cfr.org/article/how-much-aid-has-us-sent-ukraine-here-are-six-charts

 

you know the big guy is getting his cut but my goodness this is disproportionate the amount we’ve spent compared to everyone else.

Edited May 23, 2023 by Mynamemike

[Tiberius]

7 minutes ago, Mynamemike said:

https://www.cfr.org/article/how-much-aid-has-us-sent-ukraine-here-are-six-charts

 

you know the big guy is getting his cut but my goodness this is disproportionate the amount we’ve spent compared to everyone else.

Compared to GDP we are only middle of the road 

[Mynamemike]

3 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Compared to GDP we are only middle of the road 

That’s great all the little countries are supplying some weapons and all but we’re ahead of the big boys in Europe that are right next door to the conflict.

 

Why are we the ones footing the majority of the weapons and equipment?

 

 

Latvia

Estonia

Lithuania

Norway

Poland

Netherlands

Czech Republic

United Kingdom

Bulgaria

United States

Finland

Denmark

Sweden

Croatia

Canada

Portugal

Slovakia

EU institutions

Germany

Austria

Luxembourg

Note: Data source includes Australia, China, India, New Zealand, Norway, South Korea, Switzerland, Taiwan, Turkey, EU member states, and members of the Group of Seven (G7).

Source: Antezza et al., Ukraine Support Tracker, Kiel Institute for the World Economy.

 

[Tenhigh]

2 hours ago, Tiberius said:

I don't blame the west because Putin's is a mass murderer. I get you know Putin wants your side to win, so you want deflect for him a bit. 

 

The mass murdering autocrat is to blame. Not the west at all

 

 

How dare we spread popular government and the rule of law! (Ya, I get that you think our system is bad, whatever!) 

Lol, you better be a good looking guy, Tibs.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957

Edited May 23, 2023 by Tenhigh

[L Ron Burgundy]

12 hours ago, JaCrispy said:

You mean like the US owns Zelensky, after helping to overthrow the Ukrainian government in favor of a puppet leader to do America’s bidding?

 

Gee, where have I heard this broken record before? 🤔

Yes every situation is the same.  You would think this is another Iran because you connect non existing dots.

 

[Tiberius]

3 hours ago, Tenhigh said:

Lol, you better be a good looking guy, Tibs.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957

What's this? 

[Tenhigh]

17 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

What's this? 

Read the article,  you handsome devil!

Edited May 24, 2023 by Tenhigh

[All_Pro_Bills]

12 hours ago, Tiberius said:

I'm saying whatever it was does not excuss Putin for his mass murdering. 

 

So glad we have helped smash the Russia army. 

Do you think Nazi paramilitary groups in Donbas murdering Ukrainian citizens of Russian heritage starting in 2014 following Madien had anything to do with precipitating the conditions for war?  Or are you sticking with the story that sovereign nations can do whatever they want like joining NATO or using racism as a justification for killing their own citizens?

[SCBills]

Ukraine’s Ministry of Defense. 
 

 

Edited May 24, 2023 by SCBills

[Tiberius]

9 hours ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Do you think Nazi paramilitary groups in Donbas murdering Ukrainian citizens of Russian heritage starting in 2014 following Madien had anything to do with precipitating the conditions for war?  Or are you sticking with the story that sovereign nations can do whatever they want like joining NATO or using racism as a justification for killing their own citizens?

So, on that basis, you'd allow Putin to set his army free to kill, rape and burn the people of Ukraine? 

 

Sick. Just disgusting 

11 hours ago, Tenhigh said:

Read the article,  you handsome devil!

No thanks 

[Tenhigh]

11 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

 No thanks 

Information expands your POV, Tibs. Your unwillingness to see anything other than complete black and white in terms of Putin's war in Ukraine is frankly quite disturbing. 

Besides, I am not sending you to Newsmax, it's the BBC.  That is the British Broadcasting Corporation,  a well respected and slightly left of center that has been around since the 1920s.

[Tiberius]

1 minute ago, Tenhigh said:

Information expands your POV, Tibs. Your unwillingness to see anything other than complete black and white in terms of Putin's war in Ukraine is frankly quite disturbing. 

Besides, I am not sending you to Newsmax, it's the BBC.  That is the British Broadcasting Corporation,  a well respected and slightly left of center that has been around since the 1920s.

A very brief summary would be nice

[Tenhigh]

3 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

A very brief summary would be nice

OK buddy. It is a conversation between (at the time) Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland and the US Ambassador to Ukraine, Geoffrey Pyatt, talking about the Ukrainian opposition and who they were orchestrating to lead.

[Roundybout]

45 minutes ago, SCBills said:

Ukraine’s Ministry of Defense. 
 

 

Based 

[Tiberius]

15 minutes ago, Tenhigh said:

OK buddy. It is a conversation between (at the time) Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland and the US Ambassador to Ukraine, Geoffrey Pyatt, talking about the Ukrainian opposition and who they were orchestrating to lead.

Ok 

[Tenhigh]

Just now, Tiberius said:

Ok 

So are you going to read it?

 

Tibs, I am not asking you to root for Putin, I frankly hope he is assassinated and this war comes to a speedy close with no further loss of life and that Ukraine regains all of its illegally stolen territory. 

 

But you need to understand  that history doesn't happen in a vacuu,  and is not completely black and white. While all of these deaths are on Putin, the West did plenty of bear poking.  That's not to say Putin was in anyway justified in his attack, and it may have happened absent the actions of the west, but it didn't.  Does that compute?

[All_Pro_Bills]

40 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

So, on that basis, you'd allow Putin to set his army free to kill, rape and burn the people of Ukraine? 

 

Sick. Just disgusting 

No thanks 

I'm pointing out something you seem to be missing which is the dilemma of choosing sides based on some moral standard.  Where in a war which self-implies little to no moral standard exists.  That's kind of why its called war.  The Ukrainian "side" has committed the same atrocities you attribute to the Russian invaders.  Committed them first I might add.  As John Rambo pointed out in the first movie of the series, "they drew first blood".  I could argue the Russian response was a reaction to this, but I won't.  Who did what and when doesn't absolve anyone of blame. 

 

So how do you decide which to support given a lack of "moral" character on either side?  The democracy?  I can make a clear and intelligent argument that the distinction between Ukrainian democracy and Russian democracy in form and function is nil.  

 

 

[Tiberius]

3 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

I'm pointing out something you seem to be missing which is the dilemma of choosing sides based on some moral standard.  Where in a war which self-implies little to no moral standard exists.  That's kind of why its called war.  The Ukrainian "side" has committed the same atrocities you attribute to the Russian invaders.  Committed them first I might add.  As John Rambo pointed out in the first movie of the series, "they drew first blood".  I could argue the Russian response was a reaction to this, but I won't.  Who did what and when doesn't absolve anyone of blame. 

 

So how do you decide which to support given a lack of "moral" character on either side?  The democracy?  I can make a clear and intelligent argument that the distinction between Ukrainian democracy and Russian democracy in form and function is nil.  

 

 

There's no real moral choice he but to help. You literally want to throw these people to the mercy of vicious rapists and murderers. 

 

And Ukraine is a flawed but functioning republic. You people are sick 

11 minutes ago, Tenhigh said:

So are you going to read it?

 

Tibs, I am not asking you to root for Putin, I frankly hope he is assassinated and this war comes to a speedy close with no further loss of life and that Ukraine regains all of its illegally stolen territory. 

 

But you need to understand  that history doesn't happen in a vacuu,  and is not completely black and white. While all of these deaths are on Putin, the West did plenty of bear poking.  That's not to say Putin was in anyway justified in his attack, and it may have happened absent the actions of the west, but it didn't.  Does that compute?

I just don't care. Keep sending weapons, economic aid and other supplies! 

[Coffeesforclosers]

24 minutes ago, Tenhigh said:

 

But you need to understand  that history doesn't happen in a vacuu,  and is not completely black and white. While all of these deaths are on Putin, the West did plenty of bear poking.  That's not to say Putin was in anyway justified in his attack, and it may have happened absent the actions of the west, but it didn't.  Does that compute?

 

Thanks for writing this out.

 

But after we're done apologizing for America, what do we do to keep Putin from achieving his goals? 

Edited May 24, 2023 by Coffeesforclosers

[Tenhigh]

25 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

I just don't care. Keep sending weapons, economic aid and other supplies! 

This is why people accuse you of being a warmonger, Tibs.  You really should care about all of it. 

19 minutes ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

Thanks for writing this out.

 

But after we're done apologizing for America, what do we do to keep Putin from achieving his goals? 

We agreed to provide defenses to Ukraine in exchange for denuclearization.  We keep providing assistance to Ukraine and do what we can legally to end the war, and not make it a proxy war.

[Tiberius]

18 minutes ago, Tenhigh said:

This is why people accuse you of being a warmonger, Tibs.  You really should care about all of it. 

We agreed to provide defenses to Ukraine in exchange for denuclearization.  We keep providing assistance to Ukraine and do what we can legally to end the war, and not make it a proxy war.

Makes no sense, a warmonger because I want a people to be able to defend themselves. That's kind of silly 

[Tenhigh]

18 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Makes no sense, a warmonger because I want a people to be able to defend themselves. That's kind of silly 

It's the "refusing to acknowledge the west's limited culpability and accusing anyone who questions anything about the glory of Ukraine as a Putin stooge" part.

 

 

That and your war profiteering.  😱