Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[Tiberius]

9 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

 

Your first comment (weapons = blank check) is so absurd there is no proper response

 

Your second comment, that "we" want to help Putin,   you know is false from previous comments "we" have made here.

 

and yet you keep claiming it when discussion is attempted.

 

Why is that ?

 

Don't bother answering "we" know why.

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

 

 

You want to stop....

 

What are we doing, funding freedom fighters fighting for their democracy, yet you want to STOP the blank check. 

 

Putin helped you guys in elections, and we are suppose to ignore that and this STOP the checks 

 

Ok 

 

Can you at least admit that Putin is a terrorist? 

[Big Blitz]

 

 

 

Hahahahahahahahahaha

[All_Pro_Bills]

18 hours ago, Tiberius said:

You want to stop....

 

What are we doing, funding freedom fighters fighting for their democracy, yet you want to STOP the blank check. 

 

Putin helped you guys in elections, and we are suppose to ignore that and this STOP the checks 

 

Ok 

 

Can you at least admit that Putin is a terrorist? 

What we're doing is supplying an almost unlimited amount of resources to engage in a US/NATO led proxy war of attrition against Russia using Ukrainian soldiers and civilians as cannon fodder. 

 

I personally know many Ukrainians, as my sister-in-law and her family are Ukrainian, through helping with humanitarian aid efforts during the conflict and I can tell you with certainty the majority as they watch their home country being destroyed do not share your view of the conflict or their government or your view of Russia or the motivations of the U.S.  So please stop being a useful idiot for this senseless carnage.  Everyone, everywhere needs to start demanding all parties come to terms for peace.

 

 

Edited January 10, 2023 by All_Pro_Bills

[Tiberius]

We dare not forget today that we are the heirs of that first revolution. Let the word go forth from this time and place, to friend and foe alike, that the torch has been passed to a new generation of Americans--born in this century, tempered by war, disciplined by a hard and bitter peace, proud of our ancient heritage--and unwilling to witness or permit the slow undoing of those human rights to which this nation has always been committed, and to which we are committed today at home and around the world.

Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.

This much we pledge--and more.

To those old allies whose cultural and spiritual origins we share, we pledge the loyalty of faithful friends. United there is little we cannot do in a host of cooperative ventures. Divided there is little we can do--for we dare not meet a powerful challenge at odds and split asunder.

[Tommy Callahan]

Stil no one can identify the end goal in Ukraine.

 

but one this is for sure. if we send them more money, more weapons and more "volunteer fighters" the Ukrainian people will benefit.  that's a give in.

 

 

[Tiberius]

On 1/10/2023 at 7:31 AM, All_Pro_Bills said:

What we're doing is supplying an almost unlimited amount of resources to engage in a US/NATO led proxy war of attrition against Russia using Ukrainian soldiers and civilians as cannon fodder. 

 

I personally know many Ukrainians, as my sister-in-law and her family are Ukrainian, through helping with humanitarian aid efforts during the conflict and I can tell you with certainty the majority as they watch their home country being destroyed do not share your view of the conflict or their government or your view of Russia or the motivations of the U.S.  So please stop being a useful idiot for this senseless carnage.  Everyone, everywhere needs to start demanding all parties come to terms for peace.

 

 

We are using Ukranians as cannon fodder? 

 

That sounds like something they should be complaining about. I have not heard this argument from anyone involved. Can you enlighten us on why they are allowing us to do this? 

1 minute ago, Chris farley said:

Stil no one can identify the end goal in Ukraine.

 

but one this is for sure. if we send them more money, more weapons and more "volunteer fighters" the Ukrainian people will benefit.  that's a give in.

 

 

Drive Russia out of Ukraine, comrade 

[Tommy Callahan]

4 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

We are using Ukranians as cannon fodder? 

 

That sounds like something they should be complaining about. I have not heard this argument from anyone involved. Can you enlighten us on why they are allowing us to do this? 

Drive Russia out of Ukraine, comrade 

So the goal is to drive out the Russian forces and the Russians that voted in that region? or just the soldiers?

 

 

[Tiberius]

Just now, Chris farley said:

So the goal is to drive out the Russian forces and the Russians that voted in that region? or just the soldiers?

 

 

You mean in Putin's fair elections? 

[Tommy Callahan]

So only Dominion elections that you agree with are fair.

But really. would your end game involve removing the millions of russians from said areas? or just military?

 

Then how would one maintain that border, region? and would we still be involved in that.

 

“There is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare.”

 

“In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns.”

 

if their is not attainable end goal. it just becomes another Afghanistan/Vietnam. 

 

 

 

 

[All_Pro_Bills]

20 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

We are using Ukranians as cannon fodder? 

 

That sounds like something they should be complaining about. I have not heard this argument from anyone involved. Can you enlighten us on why they are allowing us to do this?

You must not be paying attention to how the world operates.  In this case, leaders, officials, and oligarchs trading the lives of their citizens and soldiers for the big $$$$$$$$$$$$$$'s.  Look no further than Afghanistan for a recent example  when the President went on the run with suitcases full of multi-millions in American taxpayer supplied cash after the US pullout.  

[Tiberius]

24 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

You must not be paying attention to how the world operates.  In this case, leaders, officials, and oligarchs trading the lives of their citizens and soldiers for the big $$$$$$$$$$$$$$'s.  Look no further than Afghanistan for a recent example  when the President went on the run with suitcases full of multi-millions in American taxpayer supplied cash after the US pullout.  

just answer the question. 

 

You said it, now back it up. 

 

Unless you are too dumb?

[Tenhigh]

26 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

just answer the question. 

 

You said it, now back it up. 

 

Unless you are too dumb?

You really haven't heard the point of view that the west is using this as a proxy war against Russia?  

[Tiberius]

1 minute ago, Tenhigh said:

You really haven't heard the point of view that the west is using this as a proxy war against Russia?  

What is your point? 

[Tommy Callahan]

Just like citizens united and corporations running elections.

 

I do miss when the left was soundly anti war.

 

Now they stump for never ending proxi wars.  no issues at all

 

maybe due to corporate for-profit media, and pacs say so.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Doc]

2 minutes ago, Chris farley said:

Just like citizens united and corporations running elections.

 

I do miss when the left was soundly anti war.

 

Now they stump for never ending proxi wars.  no issues at all

 

maybe due to corporate for-profit media, and pacs say so.

 

No.  It's just that they take the opposite of whatever the Repubs support.

[Coffeesforclosers]

 

Isn't it obvious that Putin started the war, and he doesn't care about Russia's economic outlook? 

 

[B-Man]

 

 

Must be running out of"generals"

 

 

Russia reinstates fired general to top post as Putin escalates war in eastern Donetsk

Moscow has appointed Colonel-General Alexander Lapin as chief of staff of Russia’s ground forces, despite having been ousted as commander of the Russian Armed Forces' Central Military District in October, as Russian troops pursue a massive offensive in Donetsk, reports said Tuesday.

 

The appointment was met with criticism from Russia hawks as Russian President Vladimir Putin looks to turn the tide in the near-year long war in Ukraine, where it has made little advances since it began losing territory in September.

 

https://www.foxnews.com/world/russia-reinstates-fired-general-top-post-putin-escalates-war-eastern-donetsk

 

 

[LDD]

Shouldn't there actually be bi-partisan agreement that Russia needs put in its place and the Ukranian people should have access to weapons to defend themselves?  

[B-Man]

11 minutes ago, LDD said:

Shouldn't there actually be bi-partisan agreement that Russia needs put in its place and the Ukranian people should have access to weapons to defend themselves?  

 

 

Despite the shallow arguments that you read here,

 

No one wants Putin or Soviet Russia to prevail in this conflict.

 

What most people do want is accountability for U.S. citizen's spending and some type of end game plan.

 

 

 

[Tommy Callahan]

1 hour ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

Isn't it obvious that Putin started the war, and he doesn't care about Russia's economic outlook? 

 

outside of western media, not so much.

 

many outside of the US see the 2013 Euromaidan as western backed/sanctioned coup.  

 

Its just smart to have a goal when going to war.

 

Kinda again goes back to post 9/11 changes that gave the white house more war powers. 

 

As long as there is WAR in that country, the people of that country are suffering.   from the mass exodus and refugee issue to the ones staying and trying to live with nonstop falling bombs and drone attacks.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 11, 2023 by Chris farley

[Tenhigh]

2 hours ago, Tiberius said:

What is your point? 

Dear lord Tibs.  Who do you think would be the West's cannon fodder in a proxy war with Russia?

[Tommy Callahan]

7 minutes ago, Tenhigh said:

Dear lord Tibs.  Who do you think would be the West's cannon fodder in a proxy war with Russia?

you had it at think.  I doubt that's involved much when mashing the keyboard by that one.

[Tiberius]

7 minutes ago, Tenhigh said:

Dear lord Tibs.  Who do you think would be the West's cannon fodder in a proxy war with Russia?

So you are saying we are using Ukranian's as cannon fodder? That sounds like a really stupid point. 

 

Are you sure you even understand what you are saying? 

 

If you do, please explain how we are using them that way? 

1 minute ago, Chris farley said:

you had it at think.  I doubt that's involved much when mashing the keyboard by that one.

How is your anti-democracy crusade going dumb dumb? 

[Coffeesforclosers]

9 hours ago, Chris farley said:

outside of western media, not so much.

 

many outside of the US see the 2013 Euromaidan as western backed/sanctioned coup.  

 

Its just smart to have a goal when going to war.

 

Kinda again goes back to post 9/11 changes that gave the white house more war powers. 

 

As long as there is WAR in that country, the people of that country are suffering.   from the mass exodus and refugee issue to the ones staying and trying to live with nonstop falling bombs and drone attacks.

 

Those are all good points, but how are they relevant?  Putin was the only person who could order the invasion, and he ordered the invasion. 

 

Before February 24th, 2022, Putin was an adult in the room.  He could have rolled up his sleeves, pulled in the other adults, and done the hard work of diplomacy to hammer out a compromise on Ukraine that would have humiliated the us, difused the crisis, strengthened China, sown deeper divsions in NATO, and kept Russia's enormous petrochemical leverage over European economics intact.

 

Instead, he decided to go off on some hair brained imperial adventure that he can't get out of.  At the end of the day, it's not out job to be Team America: World Cop, and it's not our job to help Russia out of the mess it's gotten itself into.  And there's nothing bad about supporting the Ukrainians with what they need until the country that attacked them stops attacking them.  In fact, it might even disincentivize future aggression, for those of us who still believe in incentivizing good behavior and disincentivizing bad behavior.

 

Russia is NOT in fact, too big to fail, and we ZERO interest in bailing them out. And if the Ukrainians want to keep fighting, by all means and with our support.  It's not my place to tell a people when and how they can defend hearth and home, especially when the people doing the attacking hate my guts and want to turn Ukraine into the next closest thing to an Indian Reservation at best.

 

Edited January 12, 2023 by Coffeesforclosers

[Joe Ferguson forever]

10 hours ago, Tenhigh said:

Dear lord Tibs.  Who do you think would be the West's cannon fodder in a proxy war with Russia?

Ukranians want to fight.  They clearly don't see being a colony of Russia as a viable alternative.  I suspect most would rather die fighting than die or become slaves during Russian occupation.  Stalin starved millions of Ukrainians to death.   They remember.  Early in the war, I attended a Rotary International Zoom meeting that included Ukranian Rotary presidents.   Their hate of the Russians is palpable but as a civic group were most concerned with humanitarian aid.   They don't require encouragement to fight.  So not cannon fodder.  Inspired and ferocious warriors that are winning...and without American blood being spilled.

https://www.history.com/news/ukrainian-famine-stalin

Edited January 12, 2023 by redtail hawk

[Tommy Callahan]

7 hours ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

Those are all good points, but how are they relevant?  Putin was the only person who could order the invasion, and he ordered the invasion. 

 

Before February 24th, 2022, Putin was an adult in the room.  He could have rolled up his sleeves, pulled in the other adults, and done the hard work of diplomacy to hammer out a compromise on Ukraine that would have humiliated the us, difused the crisis, strengthened China, sown deeper divsions in NATO, and kept Russia's enormous petrochemical leverage over European economics intact.

 

Instead, he decided to go off on some hair brained imperial adventure that he can't get out of.  At the end of the day, it's not out job to be Team America: World Cop, and it's not our job to help Russia out of the mess it's gotten itself into.  And there's nothing bad about supporting the Ukrainians with what they need until the country that attacked them stops attacking them.  In fact, it might even disincentivize future aggression, for those of us who still believe in incentivizing good behavior and disincentivizing bad behavior.

 

Russia is NOT in fact, too big to fail, and we ZERO interest in bailing them out. And if the Ukrainians want to keep fighting, by all means and with our support.  It's not my place to tell a people when and how they can defend hearth and home, especially when the people doing the attacking hate my guts and want to turn Ukraine into the next closest thing to an Indian Reservation at best.

 

Um. Euromaiden in 2014.  Dunbas and Crimea counter revolt in 2014.  Russia has been in Ukraine since 2014.  

The invasion was in 2014.  Not 2022 

 

Who said anything about to big to fail or bailing out.  Their economy isn't hurting 

 

 

5 hours ago, redtail hawk said:

Ukranians want to fight.  They clearly don't see being a colony of Russia as a viable alternative.  I suspect most would rather die fighting than die or become slaves during Russian occupation.  Stalin starved millions of Ukrainians to death.   They remember.  Early in the war, I attended a Rotary International Zoom meeting that included Ukranian Rotary presidents.   Their hate of the Russians is palpable but as a civic group were most concerned with humanitarian aid.   They don't require encouragement to fight.  So not cannon fodder.  Inspired and ferocious warriors that are winning...and without American blood being spilled.

https://www.history.com/news/ukrainian-famine-stalin

Most Ukraine citizens in the fighting areas are refugees in Poland.  

[PetermansRedemption]

22 hours ago, LDD said:

Shouldn't there actually be bi-partisan agreement that Russia needs put in its place and the Ukranian people should have access to weapons to defend themselves?  

I don’t think you’ll get a bi-partisan agreement on much when it comes to spending money. 

[Tiberius]

23 hours ago, Chris farley said:

outside of western media, not so much.

 

many outside of the US see the 2013 Euromaidan as western backed/sanctioned coup.  

 

Its just smart to have a goal when going to war.

 

Kinda again goes back to post 9/11 changes that gave the white house more war powers. 

 

As long as there is WAR in that country, the people of that country are suffering.   from the mass exodus and refugee issue to the ones staying and trying to live with nonstop falling bombs and drone attacks.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

WTF  are you pissing out here? 

[Tenhigh]

12 hours ago, redtail hawk said:

Ukranians want to fight.  They clearly don't see being a colony of Russia as a viable alternative.  I suspect most would rather die fighting than die or become slaves during Russian occupation.  Stalin starved millions of Ukrainians to death.   They remember.  Early in the war, I attended a Rotary International Zoom meeting that included Ukranian Rotary presidents.   Their hate of the Russians is palpable but as a civic group were most concerned with humanitarian aid.   They don't require encouragement to fight.  So not cannon fodder.  Inspired and ferocious warriors that are winning...and without American blood being spilled.

https://www.history.com/news/ukrainian-famine-stalin

Cannon fodder is cannon fodder, voluntary or not.   

[Tommy Callahan]

Wonder how much that Penn’s Biden Center for Diplomacy and Global Engagement think tank was involved in our Ukrainian foreign policy.

 

you know. the place where they found the classified Biden Docs. 

 

Wonder if that place keeps visitor logs

 

 

 

 

 

 

15 hours ago, redtail hawk said:

Ukranians want to fight.  They clearly don't see being a colony of Russia as a viable alternative.  I suspect most would rather die fighting than die or become slaves during Russian occupation.  Stalin starved millions of Ukrainians to death.   They remember.  Early in the war, I attended a Rotary International Zoom meeting that included Ukranian Rotary presidents.   Their hate of the Russians is palpable but as a civic group were most concerned with humanitarian aid.   They don't require encouragement to fight.  So not cannon fodder.  Inspired and ferocious warriors that are winning...and without American blood being spilled.

https://www.history.com/news/ukrainian-famine-stalin

Most of the Ukrainians I know hate Communism more than anything. Russia is a close second.

 

 the Holodomor is why many of them dont trust or expect anything from the state.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Big Blitz]

It’s like something I saw in The Boys

 

 

 

 

 

[Tiberius]

 

[Tiberius]

Probably have been training for months and are just announcing now. I'd guess the same is true of other weapons systems. Hellfire missiles!  

 

 

[Tiberius]

 

[Tiberius]

 

[All_Pro_Bills]

49 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

 

Have you seen stories such as the NYT's report on how these weapons transfers are starting to impact the US military's preparedness levels?  Drawing down stockpiles to the point where inventory in strategic areas of potential conflict are being depleted.  Drawing down military hardware inventory in places like Israel and South Korea.  Being used up faster than they can be replaced and straining supplies of key and scarce inputs.  To the point where military leaders and Pentagon planners are raising concerns that draw downs are putting direct U.S. interests and US forces at risk.  I expect a news outlet such as The Times publishing such a report signals were approaching some policy tipping point.  

 

I believe the implication is that like all recent wars and conflicts our government gets involved in they will sooner rather than later shift focus elsewhere or no longer view helping Ukraine as a key interest.  And hang them out to dry, aka Afghanistan.  Then suddenly all the people shouting to the rafters about the need to provide unlimited support for democracy will immediately alter their opinions and support the establishments change of heart and direction.  Most likely shifting the task completely onto our European "partners" and when that strategy flops placing the blame for failure on them. 

Edited January 19, 2023 by All_Pro_Bills

[Tiberius]

1 hour ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Have you seen stories such as the NYT's report on how these weapons transfers are starting to impact the US military's preparedness levels?  Drawing down stockpiles to the point where inventory in strategic areas of potential conflict are being depleted.  Drawing down military hardware inventory in places like Israel and South Korea.  Being used up faster than they can be replaced and straining supplies of key and scarce inputs.  To the point where military leaders and Pentagon planners are raising concerns that draw downs are putting direct U.S. interests and US forces at risk.  I expect a news outlet such as The Times publishing such a report signals were approaching some policy tipping point.  

 

I believe the implication is that like all recent wars and conflicts our government gets involved in they will sooner rather than later shift focus elsewhere or no longer view helping Ukraine as a key interest.  And hang them out to dry, aka Afghanistan.  Then suddenly all the people shouting to the rafters about the need to provide unlimited support for democracy will immediately alter their opinions and support the establishments change of heart and direction.  Most likely shifting the task completely onto our European "partners" and when that strategy flops placing the blame for failure on them. 

lol, so who's military is less prepared now, the USA's or Russia's? 

 

Our military is also hugely benefitting from the experience of testing our weapons, seeing what terrorist Putin can do and how we can destroy them. 

 

Russia should just leave Crimea 

[sherpa]

Regarding inventories, I posted this on Dec. 9 in this forum:

 

"First on an inventory note, I was watching the CEO of Raytheon on CNBC the other day and he mentioned that in the first ten months of this war, Ukraine had gone through ten years of Javelin production and fifteen years of Stinger production.

Obviously, we need to get those, or replacements back up to acceptable inventories."

[SoCal Deek]

43 minutes ago, sherpa said:

Regarding inventories, I posted this on Dec. 9 in this forum:

 

"First on an inventory note, I was watching the CEO of Raytheon on CNBC the other day and he mentioned that in the first ten months of this war, Ukraine had gone through ten years of Javelin production and fifteen years of Stinger production.

Obviously, we need to get those, or replacements back up to acceptable inventories."

Why would this be shocking? Missiles need a conflict to be consumed. We ended one conflict and immediately jumped into another one. It’s good for business! 

[PetermansRedemption]

50 minutes ago, sherpa said:

Regarding inventories, I posted this on Dec. 9 in this forum:

 

"First on an inventory note, I was watching the CEO of Raytheon on CNBC the other day and he mentioned that in the first ten months of this war, Ukraine had gone through ten years of Javelin production and fifteen years of Stinger production.

Obviously, we need to get those, or replacements back up to acceptable inventories."

This is concerning. Imagine the production the US would go through if we ever got involved in a war against a competent enemy? We probably need a 40 year stock pile. 

Edited January 19, 2023 by PetermansRedemption