What prompted the change to our offense, and other questions?

[Buffalo Bills Fan]

9 hours ago, HappyDays said:

Defenses have caught up to what we did last year and we haven't adjusted. It's the same thing happening to the Chiefs. We are too one dimensional to counter. The scheme that defenses are playing against us can traditionally be beat by running the ball but our offensive line can't win a 5 on 4 matchup and our RBs aren't explosive enough to take advantage of the few opportunities that are there. The next best counter is TE seam routes and we have been without Knox the past 2 weeks. We need a complete change in our offensive philosophy. WR crossing routes aren't going to work anymore, defenses are selling out to stop them and we have no change up.

 

Think Daboll adjusted too much by going shorter underneath game this week. Allen was late on lots of throws. When Allen watches the film he'll learn from this.  But understand Daboll reasoning to do so. Have them adjust to do that opens up different things. Teams are adjusting like you said. 

[GunnerBill]

9 hours ago, Virgil said:

 

That's what I'm saying though.  When did they catch up to us?  I feel like we stopped running our scheme in anticipation of people shutting us down.  The Chiefs game was the only one where our normal play wasn't working, and I would say that was more the offensive line not protecting Josh. 

 

I don't think the league has caught up to us except that it has seen interior pressure on the dline is a way to throw everything off. I believe both Daboll and to a lesser extend Josh have the bad oline in their heads. Daboll is trying to coach around it rather than just calling what we do well and Josh is agitated and especially when the line does hold up is trying to force something big because he knows how difficult it is to move down the field in chunks as we did last year when the line is so poor. 

 

The root cause of the issues is the offensive line. Blame coaches, blame players, blame the Quarterback.... but responsibility for that properly lies with the personnel department. They got unlucky with Dion, he is not at his best and likely won't be all year with the after effects of covid. I think Daryl Williams regression was not an obvious thing to call but the interior was not good last year and they did nothing about it. When you add all that to the league deciding to call offensive holding again the result is a mess. 

[davefan66]

9 hours ago, Virgil said:

 

1 - With Gabe Davis leading us in Red Zone TDs last season, why is he no longer in those packages as much?  While I understand Sanders new role in the offense, red zone packages are typically different

 

2 - Do we have a runningback problem or an offensive line problem? 

 

 

6 - While Sanders has made some great plays for us, it feels to be at the expense of the other receivers.  Is this intentional or is really just the only person getting open?

 

 

1. And 6. Go together.  If you add Sanders, someone sits.  It’s not going to be Diggs or Beas.  Davis loses.  Seems Josh has fallen in love with his bright, shiny, somewhat used toy.  Honestly, I don’t see what Sanders has brought to the team.  Taken balls from Diggs and Davis, doesn’t seem that he’s added much.  Should also be a good decoy to get the others more open, not just consume their catches.  His addition is a zero net gain.

 

2.  RB’s are not the problem.  Offensive line is for sure.  Can’t run block or hold pass blocking like they did last year, and hey weren’t great then.  Josh covered for them well last year.  Need to either change players or change blocking schemes for the players they have.  Neither is something that can be done well in the middle of the season.

 

Need to get back to shorter throws that don’t take time.  Josh has to stop trying to get it all in one throw.  Need to run fewer 5 wides and keep a TE or RB to help pass block.  Need to manufacture a run game somehow.  As long as we can’t run the ball or attempt to do so, the defense will just sit back and defend the pass.  Need balance which we do not have.  the offense will need to get points when you can, can’t always be a TD.  Defense is pretty good, just need to score 1 more point than the opposition.
 

 

 

[Buffalo Bills Fan]

1 minute ago, davefan66 said:

1. And 6. Go together.  If you add Sanders, someone sits.  It’s not going to be Diggs or Beas.  Davis loses.  Seems Josh has fallen in love with his bright, shiny, somewhat used toy.  Honestly, I don’t see what Sanders has brought to the team.  Taken balls from Diggs and Davis, doesn’t seem that he’s added much.  Should also be a good decoy to get the others more open, not just consume their catches.  His addition is a zero net gain.

 

2.  RB’s are not the problem.  Offensive line is for sure.  Can’t run block or hold pass blocking like they did last year, and hey weren’t great then.  Josh covered for them well last year.  Need to either change players or change blocking schemes for the players they have.  Neither is something that can be done well in the middle of the season.

 

Need to get back to shorter throws that don’t take time.  Josh has to stop trying to get it all in one throw.  Need to run fewer 5 wides and keep a TE or RB to help pass block.  Need to manufacture a run game somehow.  As long as we can’t run the ball or attempt to do so, the defense will just sit back and defend the pass.  Need balance which we do not have.  the offense will need to get points when you can, can’t always be a TD.  Defense is pretty good, just need to score 1 more point than the opposition.
 

 

 

 

Guys were open in the shorter throws. Allen was late in throws lots of them.  Lots of them could of been lots of yards. Even medium type yards, Allen was late. Making it harder for wr to get open. Not disagreeing what you said both are issues.

[Sharky7337]

Funny how a week or so ago I made many of the same points and I got flamed hard. I agree. 

[JohnNord]

11 hours ago, HappyDays said:

Defenses have caught up to what we did last year and we haven't adjusted. It's the same thing happening to the Chiefs. We are too one dimensional to counter. The scheme that defenses are playing against us can traditionally be beat by running the ball but our offensive line can't win a 5 on 4 matchup and our RBs aren't explosive enough to take advantage of the few opportunities that are there. The next best counter is TE seam routes and we have been without Knox the past 2 weeks. We need a complete change in our offensive philosophy. WR crossing routes aren't going to work anymore, defenses are selling out to stop them and we have no change up.

Running game and also Josh needs to check the ball down to move the sticks.

[Ya Digg?]

It seems that a lot of people this week keep talking about using check downs at the expense of Josh going through his professions and reads. It’s obvious the Bills don’t use a check down offense-his check down is his last resort. This is not to say some of those check down plays weren’t there against the Jags, but I have seen people posting that Josh should’ve been throwing to his check down in about 2 seconds. Yes Josh and Daboll could utilize that more, but reading the comments from some people this week it’s almost as if people are longing for the Trent Edwards days again 

[Buffalo Bills Fan]

3 minutes ago, Ya Digg? said:

It seems that a lot of people this week keep talking about using check downs at the expense of Josh going through his professions and reads. It’s obvious the Bills don’t use a check down offense-his check down is his last resort. This is not to say some of those check down plays weren’t there against the Jags, but I have seen people posting that Josh should’ve been throwing to his check down in about 2 seconds. Yes Josh and Daboll could utilize that more, but reading the comments from some people this week it’s almost as if people are longing for the Trent Edwards days again 

Not all about check downs. Like a wr screen to Beasley sooner and right throw on money. First down rather than one yard gain. Even medium throws. Sooner lots of yards. Allen was late on lots of them. 

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, Ya Digg? said:

It seems that a lot of people this week keep talking about using check downs at the expense of Josh going through his professions and reads. It’s obvious the Bills don’t use a check down offense-his check down is his last resort. This is not to say some of those check down plays weren’t there against the Jags, but I have seen people posting that Josh should’ve been throwing to his check down in about 2 seconds. Yes Josh and Daboll could utilize that more, but reading the comments from some people this week it’s almost as if people are longing for the Trent Edwards days again 

 

Agree. Running the ball badly and throwing check downs gets you the Steelers offense from the end of last season which couldn't move the ball. The Bills still have to attack downfield. They are not solving this crisis on offense with screens and dump offs. I think what they might need to do, however, is tweak some of Josh's progressions so that check down isn't the 4th option he gets to but is the 2nd or 3rd. Have a first option that is still a downfield throw (and I don't mean a deep shot I just mean an intermediate 10-15 yard throw) but then if the line doesn't hold Josh is immediately at check down or throw away. Try and limit the number of times Josh is trying to read 2 or 3 downfield routes behind this atrocious protection. But when the first read is there is has to come out on time. Josh cannot hold it waiting for the kill shot.

[BuffaloBillies]

Sometimes Josh needs to step straight up in the pocket vs always bubbling out right.

Case in point last week... Dawkins pushed his guy back and up the field (behind Josh) - wasn't great but was enough to keep him off Josh if he stepped into the pocket.

Instead, Josh bubbles back and right and went right into the defender for the sack.

[Robert Paulson]

11 hours ago, realtruelove said:

It appears that they are intentionally throttling the offense and using the regular season to test a multitude of plays, so teams in the playoffs will not be prepared for what will be unleashed on them.  

I've thought this as well through the year. It helps make more sense as to why we are calling such poorly designed plays/game plans

 

If OC/HC are stubbornly doing this every week thinking it will get better later and our talent will win games right now he just finally got a big enough 2 x 4 in the face last week to hopefully snap out of it.

[HappyDays]

21 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

But when the first read is there is has to come out on time. Josh cannot hold it waiting for the kill shot.

 

A good example is the very first play of the game:

 

 

I think what happened here is that Sweeney is his 2nd progression. Allen sees the FS drop back so far at the snap that he believes Sweeney will break open for a deep completion over the middle so he passes on the easy completion to Diggs, and based on the way the coverage develops you can see he is basically right. But by the time Sweeney had an opportunity to break open the offensive line is in Allen's lap. Also Sweeney is bad at separating and it doesn't look like he would have gotten open either way. Allen needs to go against his natural instinct and take the easy first read throw to Diggs every time. It's a tougher decision than people make it out to be though. You can't exclusively make 6 and 7 yard passes down the field and score TDs.

[Virgil]

22 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

A good example is the very first play of the game:

 

 

I think what happened here is that Sweeney is his 2nd progression. Allen sees the FS drop back so far at the snap that he believes Sweeney will break open for a deep completion over the middle so he passes on the easy completion to Diggs, and based on the way the coverage develops you can see he is basically right. But by the time Sweeney had an opportunity to break open the offensive line is in Allen's lap. Also Sweeney is bad at separating and it doesn't look like he would have gotten open either way. Allen needs to go against his natural instinct and take the easy first read throw to Diggs every time. It's a tougher decision than people make it out to be though. You can't exclusively make 6 and 7 yard passes down the field and score TDs.

Why is Sweeny lining up wide at all?  That also makes no sense to me.  Sweeney should be the final check down when the rest of the play breaks down

[HappyDays]

17 minutes ago, Virgil said:

Why is Sweeny lining up wide at all?  That also makes no sense to me.  Sweeney should be the final check down when the rest of the play breaks down

 

We do not have a roster-worthy TE behind Knox. Daboll needs to use Sweeney exclusively as a blocker and check down option while Knox gets healthy. He cannot run seam routes.

[Nihilarian]

First off, the decline in offensive performance started last season when the Colts came into Buffalo for that playoff game. The Bills were on a 6 game winning roll and the last three games. Denver 48-19, NE 38-9, Miami 56-26. WOWSER! 

 

That Buffalo offense looked unstoppable!

 

The Colts playoff game 27-24 brought the Bills down to earth as they only won by 3 points and it was a close game. The next game against the Ravens the Buffalo offense only scored 10 points all game. The defense saved the Bills with a pick six from the end zone. -6 from them to +6 for us.

 

These two games it looked like the defenses had started to figure out how to slow the Bills scoring offense. It really looked bad in the AFC Championship game 38-24 and was exasperated with all the holding the Chiefs were doing on both sides of the ball. 

 

Dial into to that first game against the Steelers week one of 2021, a 16-23 loss. They had all offseason to study film on what the Bills were doing on offense and the Bills offense just kept rolling with the same old, same old.  

 

Allow me to point out that even one of the greatest QBs of our time in Aaron Rodgers went 6-9-1 in 2018 with little or no running game, 32nd in rush attempts that season.

Lafleur gets hired and the packers start running the ball, 13th in rush attempts in 2019. The Pack goes 13-3 with Rodgers at QB. 

 

Okay, what started this recent decline with the offensive line started with the back injury to RT Spencer Brown. The Bills replaced him by moving Williams from OG to RT along with a shuffle of other players moving around on the line. This last game the only real solid player was the center Morse. The two tackles and guards stunk it up. 

 

Most of last year the Bills line gave Josh Allen all the time he needed to make his reads, throws. The Chiefs games were exceptions. 

 

This year the QB hasn't had the luxury of being able to sit in the pocket and make his reads like last season and along with little or no run game from the RB's it lays the entire offense on the QB. 

(remember 2018 Aaron Rodgers?)

 

My take is that the decline in the Bills offense since the end of last season is for a few reasons. Opponents have figured out how to defeat the Bills passing scheme. Recently with a "cover 2 shell" and a strong four man pass rush. It seems that the Bills block with five simply can't hold off  four. Poor offensive line play.

 

Lastly, where is the innovation in the offense? Allen doesn't have time in the pocket, quick slants not in the playbook? Quick outs not in the playbook? 

 

This has heavy pressure on the QB has happened to the offense since 2018, in 2019 against the Ravens who were in Allen's face all game as they sacked him 6x. The Bills had no run game and no pass game... and ...yet ...still kept calling pass plays. Just like against the Jags this past game.

Just keep calling pass plays...something will work...

 

Want the run game to work even with a weak, poor O line? OG's stink?  Do what Cam Cameron did with the Ravens and bring in extra OT's to play TE. Five O linemen along with two extra tackles to block and they will move the ball on the ground. 

 

I've been advocating a stout Buffalo Bills run game for years and years. A strong run game to go along with the talent at receiver and this team would again be unstoppable on offense.

[CincyBillsFan]

This is an astonishing stat from the D&C:

 

‘When Allen hands off to Devin Singletary or Zack Moss, the results have generally been less than inspiring. The Bills have 22 runs of at least 10 yards this season, and Singletary and Moss have just nine combined, while Allen has 12 and Mitchell Trubisky one.’

 

When you think of how defenses are playing us the fact that Moss & Sngeterry have only broke 9 runs of at least 10 yards combined over 8 games is depressing. I would argue that there have been some 5 - 8 yard runs that should have gone for more then 10 yards as there were holes open.  Our RB's rarely break tackles, make defenders miss or accelerate away from LB's. 

 

 

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Nihilarian said:

 

Lastly, where is the innovation in the offense? Allen doesn't have time in the pocket, quick slants not in the playbook? Quick outs not in the playbook? 

 

I mean look at the video @HappyDays posted above. A quick hitch was literally the first call of the game. Allen came off it to try and hit Sweeney deep and time ran out. 

 

I knew your response would be just run it but bringing in extra linemen is fine except it tips your hand that you are running. I think one of the problems as it is looks to be that the Bills offense has tells for when its run and pass. Bringing in jumbo personnel to grind out 4 yards per carry to go run, run, pass is not what this offense is built to do and it isn't what Allen does well.

[Calidiehard]

It seems to be a combination of things. I don't feel it's so much that they have figured us out as we've had certain deficiencies that that could counter what they are trying to do. Being very weak up the middle has allowed teams to rush 3 or 4 and win getting pressure in Josh's face while our tackle play has also been substantially weaker than last year. This has limited Josh's ability to escape at times and rushed throws he was able to sit back and make last year.  The deep crossers with the TE running the seam to put the safties in conflict take time, and the Oline hasn't been able to hold up like last year.  Add to that that we can't or don't really try and run the ball except in obvious situations isn't helping allowing dlines to pin their ears back and play games against the oline with almost zero risk of being burned by the run. 

I have no idea why we haven't run any motion to jet sweeps to slow the linebackers and dlinemen down? This helped with run game and playaction passes last year. We moved Diggs around much more last year with him playing in the slot at times to get better matchups, but this year almost exclusively on the outside. 

In the end our offense could still be very effective against the defenses we see if we did things to slow the pass rush down, line held up, and we could run the ball more effectively. This would force teams to change the coverage by bringing extra pressure which would allow for the bigger plays we saw last year. 

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

I just stumbled across this troubling trend with the offense:

(starting with game 3 vs. Washington)

 

PF: 43-40-38-31-26-6

Yards: 481-450-436-417-351-301

 

And the defenses they've face (with rankings vs both)

WSH 28/29, HOU 30/28, KC 24/26, TEN 14/19, MIA 27/30, JAX 26/24

 

Downward trend vs. 5 Bad defenses and one middling. I said earlier I'm didn't think the league has us figured out. Not sure I believe that anymore. I've been saying for a few weeks now that we are relying on Allen too much. That much is true, just like KC with Mahomes. They both have covered for the Olines, but the schemes they're seeing now are causing both to try and do too much.

Edited November 11, 2021 by D. L. Hot-Flamethrower

[Big Blitz]

I think you can put the Xs and Os to the side here honestly.  

 

 

It's underestimated how big a deal it is that the other team is just saying screw it - our front 4 is coming for the QB we don't care about your running backs.  

 

Our secondary is going to make you throw it to anyone other then Diggs.

 

 

If Allen plays well and he begins to recognize that hero ball isn't necessary AT ALL because of this defense and just takes what they give us - get to 24 points, we're going to win 7 of our last 9 games.