PostGame Thread Bills @ Bears

[Chandler#81]

1 minute ago, wjag said:

I’ll just drop this here. 
 

Buffalo Bills defensive end Efe Obada was fined $6,944 for a low hit on Lions quarterback Tim Boyle, per Pelissero.

 

sheesh.  

If that warranted $7K, knocking Fields’ helmet into Lake Michigan is gonna be huge!

[aristocrat]

3 minutes ago, wjag said:

I’ll just drop this here. 
 

Buffalo Bills defensive end Efe Obada was fined $6,944 for a low hit on Lions quarterback Tim Boyle, per Pelissero.

 

sheesh.  

69…nice

[Hapless Bills Fan]

12 hours ago, LeGOATski said:

If it's enough to make such a negative impression, then it's too much. 

 

He hasn't even been a returner that often.

 

There's a saying that "perception is reality", but when a team makes personnel decisions, they need to look at actual reality.

 

Fans think that McKenzie lost his KR/PR job due to muffs.   It was probably more due to bad judgement about when to abort and when to run back.

 

The fact is that Roberts had 3 fumbles on KR/PR last season (61 KR/PR, 1 of them a muff), 3 during 2018 and 4 during 2017 with the Jets. 

 

Yet the overall impression I get is that fans are ready to canonize Saint Andre of the Sure Hands and vilify McKenzie, who is on the record with 2 fumbles (26 KR/PR, 1 of them a muff)

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to argue that we won't miss Andre' Roberts or that 1 in 20 is the same as 1 in 13 (it's not); my point is that

1) even the "All Pro" KR/PR fumbled some, perhaps more than his reputation in fans' minds would suggest

2) impressions/perceptions are not reality, even when we believe them to be reality.

 

 

 

 

 

[YoloinOhio]

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Could’ve sworn McKenzie had more muffed/fumbled KRs/PRs than that…. Thought he had two in one game in 2018…. Are those just lost fumbles/muffs or total muffs/fumbles regardless of which team recovered?

 

Total regardless of which team recovered.  McKenzie has not had 2 fumbles in one game with the Bills or in 2018.

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, Not at the table Karlos said:

Rousseau only had 9 snaps. Jesus. 

It seemed like he made 12 plays.  

[Shaw66]

35 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

There's a saying that "perception is reality", but when a team makes personnel decisions, they need to look at actual reality.

 

Fans think that McKenzie lost his KR/PR job due to muffs.   It was probably more due to bad judgement about when to abort and when to run back.

 

The fact is that Roberts had 3 fumbles on KR/PR last season (61 KR/PR, 1 of them a muff), 3 during 2018 and 4 during 2017 with the Jets. 

 

Yet the overall impression I get is that fans are ready to canonize Saint Andre of the Sure Hands and vilify McKenzie, who is on the record with 2 fumbles (26 KR/PR, 1 of them a muff)

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to argue that we won't miss Andre' Roberts or that 1 in 20 is the same as 1 in 13 (it's not); my point is that

1) even the "All Pro" KR/PR fumbled some, perhaps more than his reputation in fans' minds would suggest

2) impressions/perceptions are not reality, even when we believe them to be reality.

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for this.  Extrpolated, McKenzie has two more fumbles in a season.  Not good.  But it's a small samplen size, so it's certainly not conclusive. 

 

Roberts was better, but he is gone.  McKenzie gets the job.  He makes me nervous, in the same way Knox makes me nervous.  I just don't think theyre as good as they need to be.  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

21 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Thanks for this.  Extrpolated, McKenzie has two more fumbles in a season.  Not good.  But it's a small samplen size, so it's certainly not conclusive. 

 

Roberts was better, but he is gone.  McKenzie gets the job.  He makes me nervous, in the same way Knox makes me nervous.  I just don't think theyre as good as they need to be.  

 

I can't argue with that for either player.  McKenzie made me nervous in the Miami game.  Knox has me singing Cranberries ("What's in your Head?  In your Head?") but I try to have faith in the reports he has had a much better camp as far as route running and release and I have to remember that improvement at a physical/mental is not linear - there will be steps forward and steps back.

 

On the other hand, Roberts last year was not the "worry free ST ace" we needed him to be, either (IMO).

[gonzo1105]

57 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Could’ve sworn McKenzie had more muffed/fumbled KRs/PRs than that…. Thought he had two in one game in 2018…. Are those just lost fumbles/muffs or total muffs/fumbles regardless of which team recovered?

most of his muffs came in the preseason with Denver so they aren’t an official stat that’s why you think he has more but the stats don’t say that

[dpberr]

I am impressed with how crisp the Bills look in preseason.  Regardless of the string that is playing, the players look fast, in shape and committed.  The Bills collectively seemed to be a step quicker than the Bears all game.

[Rocky Landing]

4 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

Ya know, I posted a thread back in July positing that a Bills team comprised of its backup players would actually be competitive, and I was mostly flamed as a homer (which, admittedly, is true). But, I count a total of six starters on that list, with only three (Cody Ford- 44%, Mongo, and Dawkins- 31%) playing more than 30%. 

 

Defense especially (in which I was most heavily flamed) played exactly one starter- Ed Oliver, with six snaps. Our second, and third string D absolutely man-handled the Bears starting O. Bam Johnson was in the backfield all day. Epenesa just flattened their starting LT, and stepped over him like a doormat on his way to a sack on Dalton. Rousseau, utterly raw, was running around the backfield so fast with his long long frame, and they had no idea how to handle him. Two sacks in two games vs. starters for that rookie. In fact, our entire front seven (and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like we played a lot of 4-3 yesterday) looked complete. Pressured the QB, and handled the run all day.

 

On offense, our #4, and down WRs looked better than some other team's starting WR corps-- I will say: including the Jets, and Pats*. Yeah, it's preseason, I know. But, this team is deep.

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

On the other hand, Roberts last year was not the "worry free ST ace" we needed him to be, either (IMO).

Yes, but he's a natural return man, second in the league in kickoff return average last season and tenth in punt returns.  Fifth and tenth the year before.  Second and second the year before that.   

 

We're all sorry he's gone, but Roberts is just history now.  All I know is I had a reasonable level of confidence in him back there, and I don't have same confidence in McKenzie.  That's okay - I'm not the coach, and I'm also not entitled to have everything I want.  

[BADOLBILZ]

11 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Reports from camp have been that McKenzie has been waaAAAAaaayyy ahead of the other returners in terms of ball security.

 

 

No pressure in practice.  

 

He's the reserve slot WR on a team with an un-vaxed starting slot WR.........and he's on a cheap deal........he was never in any danger of not making the 53, IMO.

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

There's a saying that "perception is reality", but when a team makes personnel decisions, they need to look at actual reality.

 

Fans think that McKenzie lost his KR/PR job due to muffs.   It was probably more due to bad judgement about when to abort and when to run back.

 

The fact is that Roberts had 3 fumbles on KR/PR last season (61 KR/PR, 1 of them a muff), 3 during 2018 and 4 during 2017 with the Jets. 

 

Yet the overall impression I get is that fans are ready to canonize Saint Andre of the Sure Hands and vilify McKenzie, who is on the record with 2 fumbles (26 KR/PR, 1 of them a muff)

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to argue that we won't miss Andre' Roberts or that 1 in 20 is the same as 1 in 13 (it's not); my point is that

1) even the "All Pro" KR/PR fumbled some, perhaps more than his reputation in fans' minds would suggest

2) impressions/perceptions are not reality, even when we believe them to be reality.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The REALITY is that McKenzie was an absolute fumbling machine in Denver.........he's never really had much of a chance in Buffalo because the Bills and everyone else in the league knew about how serious the problem was.

 

Go back and watch his punt return TD vs Miami last year......bobbled the catch.  

 

Roberts wasn't perfect but the pace that McKenzie has been on in his career is more than a fumble every other game.

 

If you are an opposing team..........just kick it high and negate any return potential while increasing the likelihood of a muffed fair catch. 

 

It's tempting to put him back there because he is great at making people miss and fast enough to take it to the house,  so the Bills wanted to get a look at him there,  but I think so far it's not looking good. 

 

 

[NewEra]

12 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

He clearly is improving as a receiver.  But I don't care if he caught 100 punts in a row in practice. I don't trust him back there, and he gave me reason again today to distrust him. 

 

He is going to make the 53 and he is going to return punts. I will be reduced to praying.  And in the 4th quarter of close games I won't be surprised to see Hyde back there.  No good coach tolerates ball insecurity, and McDermott is a good coach.

Meanwhile our lord and savior has 31 fumbles in 44 games.

2 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Thanks for this.  Extrpolated, McKenzie has two more fumbles in a season.  Not good.  But it's a small samplen size, so it's certainly not conclusive. 

 

Roberts was better, but he is gone.  McKenzie gets the job.  He makes me nervous, in the same way Knox makes me nervous.  I just don't think theyre as good as they need to be.  

Need to be in order to be considered good at their job?  Or good enough to help the Bills win the SB.  I think they’re good enough to help us win the Super Bowl.  Well……maybe not knox. Hopefully Hollister can progress as a blocker.  I’d much rather have him out there as our starter.  It’s my belief that Knox will always be part stone hands mcgee

[Hapless Bills Fan]

 

14 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

The REALITY is that McKenzie was an absolute fumbling machine in Denver.........he's never really had much of a chance in Buffalo because the Bills and everyone else in the league knew about how serious the problem was.

 

He was a fumbling machine in Denver, no question, but he was also a rookie, and sometimes that's a problem that can be coached.  From some stuff here and there, I don't think he got sound coaching on the fundamentals in Mile High Town.

 

He had a good chance in B'lo IMO in 2018 - but after 16 punts, a muff, and a fumble, the Bills pulled the plug, put Hyde back there, and signed Roberts in the offseason.  But it's worth noting that they did put McKenzie back in to return punts the last 3 games of 2018 with no muffs or other excitement.

 

14 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

Go back and watch his punt return TD vs Miami last year......bobbled the catch.

 

He did.  I said elsewhere his Miami game scared me.  But again, practice, coaching.  The Miami move that concerned me more wasn't the bobble, it was a punt he correctly waved off, but remained in a position where the ball damn near hit him, while he was surrounded by defenders and would have had no chance at the ball.  I don't know if that's situational awareness that can be coached or not.

 

 

14 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

Roberts wasn't perfect but the pace that McKenzie has been on in his career is more than a fumble every other game.

 

I don't follow this calculation.   I think what you did is to say he had 8 fumbles his first 2 years in the league, during which time he returned punts in 16 games.  But that would be nonsensical, because we all know there's an "aging curve" in Football as there is in Baseball, where a player's overall performance can not be predicted with any accuracy by extrapolating from their first year.  And the fact that he had 6 fumbles in 21 punt returns his first season, then 2 fumbles in 16 punt returns his second season, supports that general principle.  They aren't all muffs, either - one of the two in B'lo was ball security during a return that he's clearly been working on.

 

 

14 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

If you are an opposing team..........just kick it high and negate any return potential while increasing the likelihood of a muffed fair catch. 

 

It's tempting to put him back there because he is great at making people miss and fast enough to take it to the house,  so the Bills wanted to get a look at him there,  but I think so far it's not looking good.

 

It's not looking great, I grant that.  But there's no need for exaggeration either.

[buffaloboyinATL]

I was just watching NFL Total Access prior to the Giants-Browns game. Their take away was Justin Fields is awesome and the Bills took a cheap helmet to helmet shot at him. Their “highlights” started in the 3rd quarter with us up 41-6. Apparently we had no highlights worth showing prior to that.  

[Warcodered]

3 hours ago, Chandler#81 said:

If that warranted $7K, knocking Fields’ helmet into Lake Michigan is gonna be huge!

I mean if they're going to fine him he should at least get to keep the helmet.

[gomper]

3 minutes ago, buffaloboyinATL said:

I was just watching NFL Total Access prior to the Giants-Browns game. Their take away was Justin Fields is awesome and the Bills took a cheap helmet to helmet shot at him. Their “highlights” started in the 3rd quarter with us up 41-6. Apparently we had no highlights worth showing prior to that.  

That's just negligent but you can't expect too much from NFLN. They've become an ESPN clone. That morning show? Please.  I know Kyle Brant loves the Bills but he's a clown. 

[LeGOATski]

3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

There's a saying that "perception is reality", but when a team makes personnel decisions, they need to look at actual reality.

 

Fans think that McKenzie lost his KR/PR job due to muffs.   It was probably more due to bad judgement about when to abort and when to run back.

 

The fact is that Roberts had 3 fumbles on KR/PR last season (61 KR/PR, 1 of them a muff), 3 during 2018 and 4 during 2017 with the Jets. 

 

Yet the overall impression I get is that fans are ready to canonize Saint Andre of the Sure Hands and vilify McKenzie, who is on the record with 2 fumbles (26 KR/PR, 1 of them a muff)

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to argue that we won't miss Andre' Roberts or that 1 in 20 is the same as 1 in 13 (it's not); my point is that

1) even the "All Pro" KR/PR fumbled some, perhaps more than his reputation in fans' minds would suggest

2) impressions/perceptions are not reality, even when we believe them to be reality.

 

 

 

 

 

Seems to be reality to me. McKenzie is obviously worse based on your numbers and his return style is more boom or bust.

 

Hyde is the one with the sure hands reputation, not Roberts.