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15 minutes ago, cle23 said:

 

2018 Chubb hardly played until 3/4 of the way through the year. He would come in once every two games and break off a big run and then hardly play after that because Hue Jackson is stupid. Callaway was hit and miss too so I wouldn't really count him as a weapon. He made a couple big plays and then basically disappeared. And Njoku has been really up and down his whole career as well. Plus he missed almost all of 2019.

 

I would call 2018 a wash just in terms of support. 2019 Mayfield had better weapons but way a worse coach and was playing in his third system in 2 years. That's more what I meant when I said he had a harder situation. He was changing coordinators and head coaches left and right. It's hard to get comfortable in a system when it's changing all the time.

If you think 2018 is a wash in regard to supporting cast, you clearly don't understand how bad Kelvin Benjamin and Zay Jones were.  Bills fans would have killed for a "hit or miss" WR!  As much as I hate to compliment Landry, he is better than all of the Bills supporting cast from 2018 combined.  Clay was a shell of his former mediocre self.  

 

Allen had a horrible O line, WRs, TEs, and an aging RB that had lost a step or two.  

 

2019 Mayfield did have better weapons, but the Bills coaching and stability was starting to make up for the disparity in talent.  By 2020 we finally got to see Allen with a very good team around him and he had an MVP worthy season.

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The Chiefs entered the off season after getting man handled in the Super Bowl because their O-line had fallen apart.  They blew up their O-line and decided to rebuild.  On paper at least, they look to

The Browns came in 3rd in their own division last year.  (I know they were only one game behind the Steelers)   I think you are underestimating the advantage of having Josh Allen at the helm

I rank this thread 6th on the wall today 

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2 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said:

That's my point though, the Browns aren't even heavy favorites to win their own division. 

 

Talented roster that has been previously prone to inconsistent effort, that is playing a somewhat difficult schedule.  I think Vegas will put them in at about 11.5 wins, which would be less than the Bills.

Yeah I think there are more picks for Ravens but Browns not far behind for sure. It will come down to Baker and how he does on whether they win the division I think

3 minutes ago, chknwing334 said:

If you think 2018 is a wash in regard to supporting cast, you clearly don't understand how bad Kelvin Benjamin and Zay Jones were.  Bills fans would have killed for a "hit or miss" WR!  As much as I hate to compliment Landry, he is better than all of the Bills supporting cast from 2018 combined.  Clay was a shell of his former mediocre self.  

 

Allen had a horrible O line, WRs, TEs, and an aging RB that had lost a step or two.  

 

2019 Mayfield did have better weapons, but the Bills coaching and stability was starting to make up for the disparity in talent.  By 2020 we finally got to see Allen with a very good team around him and he had an MVP worthy season.

Oh dear lord yes, was the absolute worst Josh had to work with that I can remember. Was torture watching that group with countless drop after drop after drop.

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23 minutes ago, cle23 said:

 

2018 Chubb hardly played until 3/4 of the way through the year. He would come in once every two games and break off a big run and then hardly play after that because Hue Jackson is stupid. Callaway was hit and miss too so I wouldn't really count him as a weapon. He made a couple big plays and then basically disappeared. And Njoku has been really up and down his whole career as well. Plus he missed almost all of 2019.

 

I would call 2018 a wash just in terms of support. 2019 Mayfield had better weapons but way a worse coach and was playing in his third system in 2 years. That's more what I meant when I said he had a harder situation. He was changing coordinators and head coaches left and right. It's hard to get comfortable in a system when it's changing all the time.

Chubb had 996 yards and 8 TDs.  Stop.  
 

The 2018 Bills was one of the worst collection of offensive playmakers in the last 20 years.  Kelvin Benjamin went from being our #1 WR to out of the league the following year......yeah......
 

Then look at our OL.  LG to RT-  Ducasse- Bodine- Miller- mills. 🤮 the worst OL I can remember us having in my life, which started 46 years ago.  

 

there’s no comparison.  Baker had more talent surrounding him on offense in 18 and 19.  There’s really no debate.  
 

And I believe the Browns currently have a more talented roster than the Bills.  But Allen >> Baker.  You guys have finally figured out a HC and Gm so maker might be able to inch closer......but he’ll never be as good as 17.  Ever.  Doesn’t mean your team won’t be better though.  Time will tell

8 minutes ago, chknwing334 said:

If you think 2018 is a wash in regard to supporting cast, you clearly don't understand how bad Kelvin Benjamin and Zay Jones were.  Bills fans would have killed for a "hit or miss" WR!  As much as I hate to compliment Landry, he is better than all of the Bills supporting cast from 2018 combined.  Clay was a shell of his former mediocre self.  

 

Allen had a horrible O line, WRs, TEs, and an aging RB that had lost a step or two.  

 

2019 Mayfield did have better weapons, but the Bills coaching and stability was starting to make up for the disparity in talent.  By 2020 we finally got to see Allen with a very good team around him and he had an MVP worthy season.

Yeah.....he has no clue in that regard

7 minutes ago, Patrick_Duffy said:

Yeah I think there are more picks for Ravens but Browns not far behind for sure. It will come down to Baker and how he does on whether they win the division I think

Oh dear lord yes, was the absolute worst Josh had to work with that I can remember. Was torture watching that group with countless drop after drop after drop.

And the run blocking was even worse.....if that’s even possible

12 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said:

That's my point though, the Browns aren't even heavy favorites to win their own division. 

 

Talented roster that has been previously prone to inconsistent effort, that is playing a somewhat difficult schedule.  I think Vegas will put them in at about 11.5 wins, which would be less than the Bills.

Yes but.....now they have stefanski.  You can’t compare him to past coaches and their inconsistencies

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3 minutes ago, NewEra said:

And the run blocking was even worse.....if that’s even possible

 

Oh man. Was beyond bad. Were many times that season I thought we would lose our 1st round QB to injury because he was having to run so damn much. Couldn't blame him though, he knew his WR's were basically worthless. So I get he had to do way more than he should have. Allen was the one and only bright light that season.

7 minutes ago, NewEra said:

The 2018 Bills was one of the worst collection of offensive playmakers in the last 20 years.  Kelvin Benjamin went from being our #1 WR to out of the league the following year......yeah......
 

Then look at our OL.  LG to RT-  Ducasse- Bodine- Miller- mills. 🤮 the worst OL I can remember us having in my life, which started 46 years ago.  

 

there’s no comparison.  Baker had more talent surrounding him on offense in 18 and 19.  There’s really no debate.

Agree with all this. Regarding the bold.....exactly right, and if one does attempt to debate it then I would say that person is clueless.

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10 minutes ago, Patrick_Duffy said:

Yup I agree, although I think Browns have a better pass rush. Anyways, regarding the bold....that is why I posted the question upthread, do you think Bills D would have done any better than Browns did after PM went out?

 

I think they maybe could have because then McD could have totally changed gameplan and I think that even though Bills pass rush wasn't great, Bills do have better CB's and S. 

It's hard to say the Bills defense would have done all that much better considering the Chiefs had 3 drives with Henne playing.  The first drive was when Mahomes got hurt and they were at midfield and they ended up kicking a FG.  The second one was an interception and the 3rd was running down the clock.  I would like to think the Bills don't let Henne get loose on the 3rd and 13 but look what happened during the Texans playoffs loss last year. 

 

What I do think is that if you have Mahomes out of the game with 9:00 left in the 3rd quarter and the Bills down 22-10, I like our chances of Allen bringing us back.  Mayfield is just not very good.  Even the touchdown that they got to get to 22-17 took over 8 minutes to go 75 yards where Baker went 6/10 for a 37 yards or 3.7 ypa.  They ran the ball 8 times for 38 yards for a rushing average of 4.75 per rush.  They were better running than passing on that drive.  Baker doesn't have it and I think the Browns are going to regret giving him a bunch of money if/when that happens.

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25 minutes ago, chknwing334 said:

If you think 2018 is a wash in regard to supporting cast, you clearly don't understand how bad Kelvin Benjamin and Zay Jones were.  Bills fans would have killed for a "hit or miss" WR!  As much as I hate to compliment Landry, he is better than all of the Bills supporting cast from 2018 combined.  Clay was a shell of his former mediocre self.  

 

Allen had a horrible O line, WRs, TEs, and an aging RB that had lost a step or two.  

 

2019 Mayfield did have better weapons, but the Bills coaching and stability was starting to make up for the disparity in talent.  By 2020 we finally got to see Allen with a very good team around him and he had an MVP worthy season.


Don’t forget Andre Holmes, WR. During the 2018 season Holmes appeared in 12 games for the Bills, including three starts. He was bad enough that the Bills released him before the end of the 2018 season. At the end of that 2018 season, Holmes exited the NFL. 

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1 minute ago, billsrul120 said:

It's hard to say the Bills defense would have done all that much better considering the Chiefs had 3 drives with Henne playing.  The first drive was when Mahomes got hurt and they were at midfield and they ended up kicking a FG.  The second one was an interception and the 3rd was running down the clock.  I would like to think the Bills don't let Henne get loose on the 3rd and 13 but look what happened during the Texans playoffs loss last year. 

 

What I do think is that if you have Mahomes out of the game with 9:00 left in the 3rd quarter and the Bills down 22-10, I like our chances of Allen bringing us back.  Mayfield is just not very good.  Even the touchdown that they got to get to 22-17 took over 8 minutes to go 75 yards where Baker went 6/10 for a 37 yards or 3.7 ypa.  They ran the ball 8 times for 38 yards for a rushing average of 4.75 per rush.  They were better running than passing on that drive.  Baker doesn't have it and I think the Browns are going to regret giving him a bunch of money if/when that happens.

Yeah, can't argue with that. Yeah don't know if the Bills D would have done any better in that situation, I want to say they maybe could have but never know. And totally agree with you in the bold. That's where I give Bills the edge over Browns. In that situation I think Bills would have won or either would have been in position to win regardless whether the D would have done better than Browns or not.

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24 minutes ago, NewEra said:


Yes but.....now they have stefanski.  You can’t compare him to past coaches and their inconsistencies

But just last year the Browns lost to the Jets (?!!!)  The second last game of the regular season with a lot on the line.  10-4 Browns with playoff hopes playing a totally in the bag Jets team.  Huge loss.

 

A very Brownsy loss done while under Stefanski.  Sure they had a couple of nice wins against Pitt, but they lost to the pathetic Jets.  Pretty much a text book example of inconsistent.

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I think Stefanski has Baker doing exactly what Baker should be doing, limiting turnovers, making high percentage throws when needed, and turning around and giving the ball to Chubb and Hunt to run.  With Stefanski calling the shots the Browns have become a running team with elite RBs behind a great O-Line.  Baker doesn't have to win games with his arm, he just needs to play smart football and throw enough passes to his talented WR and TE corps to keep defenses from stacking the box to stuff the run.  The formula worked well last year to the tune of 11 wins and a playoff win.

 

In Buffalo the offense begins and ends with Josh Allen.  He is expected to go out and sling the rock and win games on his arm and with his legs.  Last year he showed that he was up to the challenge with Diggs and his WRs having career years.  We won 13 games last season using that formula.

 

If you look at who the Browns' defense has coming back from injury into the lineup this year, the defensive free agents the Browns brought in, an the draft picks the Browns made, I think the Browns defense will be better on all three levels this season.  The Browns on paper look to have one of the most talented defenses in the league heading into this season.  Time will tell how that talent shows itself on the field.

 

I think the Browns are going to be dangerous this year with an elite running game, a QB who is capable of running a ball control offense at a high level, and now what will likely be a very strong defense.

 

I think the sum of those parts for Cleveland pushes them ahead of the Bills this season despite the Bills having Josh Allen who has become an elite QB.   That was the premise of the OP.  Based on the responses to the OP it looks like this board thinks I'm wrong by a 2/1 margin on that.  I hope I'm wrong.  I want to see the Bills win a Lombardi at least once in my life and this year could be their best chance to do it.  We'll see how things play out in a few months. 

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1 minute ago, Einstein's Dog said:

But just last year the Browns lost to the Jets (?!!!)  The second last game of the regular season with a lot on the line.  10-4 Browns with playoff hopes playing a totally in the bag Jets team.  Huge loss.

 

A very Brownsy loss done while under Stefanski.  Sure they had a couple of nice wins against Pitt, but they lost to the pathetic Jets.  Pretty much a text book example of inconsistent.

Cmon man you’re really going to use THAT game as your example?  Their ENTIRE WR unit was out due to covid that game.  The Jets just sold out to stop the run and it was game over.  JaMarcus Bradley and Marvin Hall were their only WRs that game.....both players’ only game played with the browns all season.  

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6 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said:

But just last year the Browns lost to the Jets (?!!!)  The second last game of the regular season with a lot on the line.  10-4 Browns with playoff hopes playing a totally in the bag Jets team.  Huge loss.

 

A very Brownsy loss done while under Stefanski.  Sure they had a couple of nice wins against Pitt, but they lost to the pathetic Jets.  Pretty much a text book example of inconsistent.

I agree that was a game Browns should not have lost. But those kind of fluke win/losses happens sometimes.

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54 minutes ago, chknwing334 said:

If you think 2018 is a wash in regard to supporting cast, you clearly don't understand how bad Kelvin Benjamin and Zay Jones were.  Bills fans would have killed for a "hit or miss" WR!  As much as I hate to compliment Landry, he is better than all of the Bills supporting cast from 2018 combined.  Clay was a shell of his former mediocre self.  

 

Allen had a horrible O line, WRs, TEs, and an aging RB that had lost a step or two.  

 

2019 Mayfield did have better weapons, but the Bills coaching and stability was starting to make up for the disparity in talent.  By 2020 we finally got to see Allen with a very good team around him and he had an MVP worthy season.

 

To add to this when it comes to protection in 2019 Allen had a much better line. They both had rough lines in 2018 and by 2020 the Browns had one of the best lines in football.

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1 minute ago, Patrick_Duffy said:

I agree that was a game Browns should not have lost. But those kind of fluke win/losses happens sometimes.

Especially when the team doesn’t have one non practice squad WR suiting up

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3 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Cmon man you’re really going to use THAT game as your example?  Their ENTIRE WR unit was out due to covid that game.  The Jets just sold out to stop the run and it was game over.  JaMarcus Bradley and Marvin Hall were their only WRs that game.....both players’ only game played with the browns all season.  

Right, actually totally forgot about that. That is a big reason a team will not perform well.

1 minute ago, NewEra said:

Especially when the team doesn’t have one non practice squad WR suiting up

Lol yeah really. That slipped my mind. Hell, some may have had the Jets picked due to that.

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46 minutes ago, Patrick_Duffy said:

I agree that was a game Browns should not have lost. But those kind of fluke win/losses happens sometimes.

That's the point though.  It's happened a lot before for the Browns.  And it has continued to happen under Stefanski.  Seems to me like it is a good bet to continue.

 

IMO, the Browns are much more likely to cough one up against Cincy than the Bills are to lose to the Jets.

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2 hours ago, Patrick_Duffy said:

Here's a question for everyone, if it was the Bills instead of the Browns when PM went out that game....... Do you think the Bills D could have done better than the Browns D did against Chiefs QB2?

What difference does that make?  Are you building a team to beat Patrick Mahomes or Chad Henne?  
 

I don’t know who is better between the Bills and Browns, but I do feel strongly that the Browns are better equipped to beat the Chiefs.  They’ve got a pass rush that is capable of taking over games and enough offensive weapons to put a lot of points on the board.  The Bills can score, but they did nothing to slow down the Chiefs offense.  After the first play of the second half when Romo was talking about how the Bills will adjust and then Hill took a little hitch for about 30 yards, it was just a formality.

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1 minute ago, Billl said:

What difference does that make?  Are you building a team to beat Patrick Mahomes or Chad Henne?  
 

I don’t know who is better between the Bills and Browns, but I do feel strongly that the Browns are better equipped to beat the Chiefs.  They’ve got a pass rush that is capable of taking over games and enough offensive weapons to put a lot of points on the board.  The Bills can score, but they did nothing to slow down the Chiefs offense.  After the first play of the second half when Romo was talking about how the Bills will adjust and then Hill took a little hitch for about 30 yards, it was just a formality.

Yeah.....after that play it was a formality..... lol.

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18 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Yeah.....after that play it was a formality..... lol.

It absolutely was.  The Chiefs had already scored 3 straight TDs, and the only success Buffalo had during the first half was when Hill dropped a 30 yard pass and then Hardman fumbled a punt on his own goal line.  The Bills had done absolutely nothing to slow down Kansas City, and their only chance was some incredible halftime adjustment which obviously didn’t happen.  The Chiefs kept right on scoring six straight times (5 TDs) going on a 38-6 run that put the game away.  It was clear at that point that Mahomes was comfortable executing the game plan, and that was that.

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2 hours ago, Einstein's Dog said:

But just last year the Browns lost to the Jets (?!!!)  The second last game of the regular season with a lot on the line.  10-4 Browns with playoff hopes playing a totally in the bag Jets team.  Huge loss.

 

A very Brownsy loss done while under Stefanski.  Sure they had a couple of nice wins against Pitt, but they lost to the pathetic Jets.  Pretty much a text book example of inconsistent.

They got nailed by COVID contract tracing right before that game.  They literally had zero WRs and lost by 7 points. 

Edited by BarleyNY
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3 hours ago, cle23 said:

I would call 2018 a wash just in terms of support. 2019 Mayfield had better weapons but way a worse coach and was playing in his third system in 2 years. That's more what I meant when I said he had a harder situation. He was changing coordinators and head coaches left and right. It's hard to get comfortable in a system when it's changing all the time.

 

Dude, when you have this diversity of posters telling you you're mistaken, your foot is truly in your mouth, and it's time to quit before you're nibbling so far up your own leg that you're busted for public indecency:

2 hours ago, chknwing334 said:

If you think 2018 is a wash in regard to supporting cast, you clearly don't understand how bad Kelvin Benjamin and Zay Jones were.  Bills fans would have killed for a "hit or miss" WR!  As much as I hate to compliment Landry, he is better than all of the Bills supporting cast from 2018 combined.  Clay was a shell of his former mediocre self.  

 

Allen had a horrible O line, WRs, TEs, and an aging RB that had lost a step or two.  

 

2019 Mayfield did have better weapons, but the Bills coaching and stability was starting to make up for the disparity in talent.  By 2020 we finally got to see Allen with a very good team around him and he had an MVP worthy season.

 

2 hours ago, Patrick_Duffy said:

Oh dear lord yes, was the absolute worst Josh had to work with that I can remember. Was torture watching that group with countless drop after drop after drop.

 

2 hours ago, NewEra said:

Chubb had 996 yards and 8 TDs.  Stop.  
 

The 2018 Bills was one of the worst collection of offensive playmakers in the last 20 years.  Kelvin Benjamin went from being our #1 WR to out of the league the following year......yeah......
 

Then look at our OL.  LG to RT-  Ducasse- Bodine- Miller- mills. 🤮 the worst OL I can remember us having in my life, which started 46 years ago.  

 

there’s no comparison.  Baker had more talent surrounding him on offense in 18 and 19.  There’s really no debate. 

 

2 hours ago, Arm of Harm said:

Don’t forget Andre Holmes, WR. During the 2018 season Holmes appeared in 12 games for the Bills, including three starts. He was bad enough that the Bills released him before the end of the 2018 season. At the end of that 2018 season, Holmes exited the NFL. 

 

2 hours ago, Einstein's Dog said:

But just last year the Browns lost to the Jets (?!!!)  The second last game of the regular season with a lot on the line.  10-4 Browns with playoff hopes playing a totally in the bag Jets team.  Huge loss.

 

Been pointed out elsewhere that the Browns had all or most of their WR on the Covid list.  Believe they may have had limited facility access that week, as well, so limited opportunities for Mayfield to get in sync with the WR who remained.

 

Really can't pin that loss on the Browns or Stefanski.  The Jests basically pinned their ears back and smothered the run and said "I Dare You" on the passing.

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