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The Chiefs entered the off season after getting man handled in the Super Bowl because their O-line had fallen apart.  They blew up their O-line and decided to rebuild.  On paper at least, they look to

The Browns came in 3rd in their own division last year.  (I know they were only one game behind the Steelers)   I think you are underestimating the advantage of having Josh Allen at the helm

I rank this thread 6th on the wall today 

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On 5/2/2021 at 12:58 PM, Inigo Montoya said:

 

 

 

I could have added some more responses from above as well, but if your only argument is that Josh Allen is better than Baker Mayfield as the reason the Bills are better than the Browns, I think that is flawed reasoning.  It's not just about the QB.

 

Is Mahomes better than Brady?  I guess the Chiefs must have won the Super Bowl last year then.  The QB is the most important piece of the puzzle, but not the whole puzzle.  Football is still a team sport.  How many Super Bowls does reigning MVP Aaron Rodgers have?  Five...Six?

 

 

 

I'm as big a homer as anyone on this board and I knew this wouldn't be a popular opinion here.   I stand by it though. 

 

People are sleeping on the Browns just like people were sleeping on the Bills based on how bad they were for years and years.  The Browns have difference makers at every position.  Baker Mayfied isn't as good a QB as Allen, not even close, but Baker doesn't have to be for the Browns to win.  If Mayfield continues to play ball control offense with that running game and an improved defense, they Browns are legit.

 

You hit the nail on the head that running game is scary 

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I can only imagine what this board would look like if we lost to the Jets late in the season, barely beat the Steelers backups to sneak into the playoffs, then failed to come back against the Chad Henne led Chiefs in the playoffs. It is always so much easier to look at teams that you pay little attention to and decide they are world beaters now. If the Browns want to be a serious contender, they need more from the QB.

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On 5/2/2021 at 4:34 PM, SCBills said:


I don’t think you’re wildly off-base.  
 

Most unbiased analysts would say Cleveland might have the most proven talent in the league, along with Tampa Bay & Kansas City.  
 

Buffalo is in the tier after those teams, with the POTENTIAL to get there.   Again, strictly speaking of individual talent.  
 

Buffalo might be the deepest team in the league in the trenches after this past weekend. 
 

In terms of proven, high end talent though...

 

Josh Allen is generally regarded as a Top 5 QB. 

 

Dawkins, Williams and Morse are regarded as good Offensive Linemen.  
 

Diggs and Beasley are difference maker WR’s.  
 

Poyer, Milano and White are considered high end talent in their prime. 
 

Everything else is potential.... Revamped running game/scheme, Knox, revamped DL, Edmunds.  
 

If Star, Oliver, Rousseau, Basham, Epenesa etc all hit, this Defensive Line could be menacing, but right now the DL is just a unit with massive potential, really the entire Defense in general.  
 


 

Except most current rankings by the talking heads have the Bills #3 right behind KC and TB and now ahead of GB until the Aaron think is figured out.

 

So therefore I think most unbiased observers and even the biased observers that like to put the Bills down think Buffalo is a tier ahead of Cleveland.

 

Could Cleveland win the AFC - of course, but as many of us rightly pointed out - the turning point and best thing to happen to Cleveland was OBJ getting hurt and going out.  With him back - it puts pressure on the offense to throw more and that is not a good thing long term.

 

We will see where it goes - I just think the entire thread reads - the Browns picked the guys I really wanted in both FA and the draft - therefore they have supplanted us.

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4 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:


 

Except most current rankings by the talking heads have the Bills #3 right behind KC and TB and now ahead of GB until the Aaron think is figured out.

 

So therefore I think most unbiased observers and even the biased observers that like to put the Bills down think Buffalo is a tier ahead of Cleveland.

 

Could Cleveland win the AFC - of course, but as many of us rightly pointed out - the turning point and best thing to happen to Cleveland was OBJ getting hurt and going out.  With him back - it puts pressure on the offense to throw more and that is not a good thing long term.

 

We will see where it goes - I just think the entire thread reads - the Browns picked the guys I really wanted in both FA and the draft - therefore they have supplanted us.


Yes, because of Josh Allen.. which is what i’ve said multiple times in this thread. 
 

Cleveland is more talented (proven talent), but Josh Allen is that much better than Baker that he not only closes the gap, but puts us ahead of them in most people’s eyes. 

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2 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:


 

Except most current rankings by the talking heads have the Bills #3 right behind KC and TB and now ahead of GB until the Aaron think is figured out.

 

So therefore I think most unbiased observers and even the biased observers that like to put the Bills down think Buffalo is a tier ahead of Cleveland.

 

Could Cleveland win the AFC - of course, but as many of us rightly pointed out - the turning point and best thing to happen to Cleveland was OBJ getting hurt and going out.  With him back - it puts pressure on the offense to throw more and that is not a good thing long term.

 

We will see where it goes - I just think the entire thread reads - the Browns picked the guys I really wanted in both FA and the draft - therefore they have supplanted us.

You think the entire thread reads like that or the OP reads like this?

 

I can’t speak for the OP, but I think the Browns are more talented across the board and the more balanced team...., but 17 (and possibly McD) makes us the better team.  They took all the guys I wanted.  But we’re still better....because of 17.

2 hours ago, SCBills said:


Yes, because of Josh Allen.. which is what i’ve said multiple times in this thread. 
 

Cleveland is more talented (proven talent), but Josh Allen is that much better than Baker that he not only closes the gap, but puts us ahead of them in most people’s eyes. 

Exactly 

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2 hours ago, HappyDays said:

I can only imagine what this board would look like if we lost to the Jets late in the season, barely beat the Steelers backups to sneak into the playoffs, then failed to come back against the Chad Henne led Chiefs in the playoffs. It is always so much easier to look at teams that you pay little attention to and decide they are world beaters now. If the Browns want to be a serious contender, they need more from the QB.

Do you think Baker has peaked?  The answer should be no.  They will likely have more out of their QB.  
 

I also feel that people really underestimate how amazing Myles Garrett is.  They have a true superstar at 2nd most important position in football.  He is capable of taking over most games.  If Newsome, ward, Troy Hill, John Johnson delpit and co can stay healthy he should be able to have his best season yet.  We should put Spencer Brown at TE and have him help Dawkins if we play

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3 hours ago, HappyDays said:

I can only imagine what this board would look like if we lost to the Jets late in the season, barely beat the Steelers backups to sneak into the playoffs, then failed to come back against the Chad Henne led Chiefs in the playoffs. It is always so much easier to look at teams that you pay little attention to and decide they are world beaters now. If the Browns want to be a serious contender, they need more from the QB.

 

Are the Bills a better regular season team than the Browns? I believe they are, especially when I think back to late season, when they were cutting through their opponents like a hot knife through butter. 

 

But when the postseason came, the Bills struggled to beat the Colts. The Colts wouldn't have been in the playoffs at all, had the Bills not beaten the Dolphins in week 17. Also, the Colts almost lost to lowly Jacksonville, in what (for them) was a must win-game. Based on how much better the Bills were than the Colts during the regular season, I expected them to win convincingly. But that's not what happened. 

 

The next week the Bills played the Ravens. Sure you could point to the final score and call it a convincing win. But the pick 6 was a 14 point swing. Had that one play been a TD instead of the pick 6, the game would have been either team's to win. So, once again a failure to beat a postseason opponent convincingly. Then there was the debacle against the Chiefs. For whatever reason, the Bills seemingly played at a lower level in the postseason than they had in the regular season. Until we get that problem fixed, we're in no position to look down our noses at a team like the Browns. Cleveland and Buffalo will win enough games to make it to the postseason, so it's the quality of postseason play which really matters. 

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18 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

The OP could be correct about his order of teams, the OP could be incorrect about his order of teams, but his analysis of the Chiefs and of the Bills off season moves was, IMO, really shallow and missed a lot of points (Chiefs I discussed above).  He's doubling down on it, though, so whatever.

 

The major point is the Chiefs remain the team to beat in the AFC until proven otherwise.  And the Bills made a strong case for being their biggest threat.  If Allen shows his improvement was no fluke, IMO we remain that (biggest threat) until proven otherwise. 

 

The Browns had a worse defense and played a weaker schedule last season.  It's not a fluke that the Bills had a better record last season. They're a legit contender and on paper, they made moves to significantly improve themselves.  We'll see if they come to fruition.

 

So did the Bills, BTW.  The moves aren't sexy, but evidently the outcome of the honest assessment they did was that our problems were largely on the offensive and defensive lines.  We lacked the cap $$ to compete successfully for some splashy FA signings, so Beane's approach was to add competition/alternatives and strive for improvement that way.   It's not sexy but it's worked before.

 

 

Nice breakdown. I still think a lot of people always assume everyone elses draft picks are day 1 contributors that will instantly improve our competition but for our own draft picks its always "itll take 2 to 3 years!!!"

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I'm sure you'll get a lot of flack for suggesting that, but your reasoning is well thought out, so no issue there.

The only thing you're not looking at is the individual development aspect of it.

Yes, if all things remain the exact same among all players, & everything on paper is the exact same as it was in 2020 then sure, it all adds up. But if you throw in the unknown variables like Josh Allen's ability to still improve (as well as any other player's ability to improve...or even regress) then it becomes a much more cloudy picture.

We simply don't know if key players like Allen can get even better. Same can be said for someone like Baker Mayfield, but most would argue Allen has a much higher ceiling. Diggs did wonders in year 1 on the team, it's possible he does even better in year 2 (even if not statistically). We don't know how all those teams' draft picks will turn out. Baker may be in the same system for a 2nd year, but Allen will now have Daboll yet again (something we thought was never going to happen after last season). 

Predicting growth & development is impossible, and that very well may be key to those 3 teams fair in 2021. On paper, if all things were the same as 2020, your argument is pretty reasonable. But things in the NFL rarely stay the same year to year, as you often see with things like strength of schedule differing a ton before the season compared to after the season.

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6 hours ago, NewEra said:

You think the entire thread reads like that or the OP reads like this?

 

I can’t speak for the OP, but I think the Browns are more talented across the board and the more balanced team...., but 17 (and possibly McD) makes us the better team.  They took all the guys I wanted.  But we’re still better....because of 17.

Exactly 


 

I keep hearing how they are more talented across the board and I just don’t see it.  They have some bigger names, but I am not sure they are better.

 

QB - Bills better by a ton

RB - Cleveland Better by a ton

OLine - Bills Tackles are better, Cleveland better inside - Bills are a better pass group and Browns better run blocking group. - wash

WRs - Bills more talented 

TEs - Cleveland most likely - they have a higher user rate

 

DLine - Cleveland by a ton - although this group is a lot of name other than Garrett the rest have done little in years

LB - Bills by a small margin - I think Milano is the best of the bunch but could go draw

DBs - I would give it to the Bills I think White is better than Ward and the Bills safeties are a hair better.

 

Overall I think the talent level is very close and the Bills are better than the Browns off the ball (QB, LB, DB, and WR), while the DLine, TEs, and RBs are clearly an advantage for Cleveland.  
 

I also think the Bills have a coaching advantage.

 

I think in the modern NFL - high quantity passing attack - the Bills offense is set to be far superior and the Browns defensive scheme makes them better and they will rank better because the offense is a running clock control offense.  I just do not see significantly more talent across the roster - I see some positions that are more talented, but those are the same groups that were more talented last year.  Not sure Clowney is better than Vernon whom he replaced.  Clowney has done little and been injured even more.

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48 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:


 

I keep hearing how they are more talented across the board and I just don’t see it.  They have some bigger names, but I am not sure they are better.

 

QB - Bills better by a ton

RB - Cleveland Better by a ton

OLine - Bills Tackles are better, Cleveland better inside - Bills are a better pass group and Browns better run blocking group. - wash

WRs - Bills more talented 

TEs - Cleveland most likely - they have a higher user rate

 

DLine - Cleveland by a ton - although this group is a lot of name other than Garrett the rest have done little in years

LB - Bills by a small margin - I think Milano is the best of the bunch but could go draw

DBs - I would give it to the Bills I think White is better than Ward and the Bills safeties are a hair better.

 

Overall I think the talent level is very close and the Bills are better than the Browns off the ball (QB, LB, DB, and WR), while the DLine, TEs, and RBs are clearly an advantage for Cleveland.  
 

I also think the Bills have a coaching advantage.

 

I think in the modern NFL - high quantity passing attack - the Bills offense is set to be far superior and the Browns defensive scheme makes them better and they will rank better because the offense is a running clock control offense.  I just do not see significantly more talent across the roster - I see some positions that are more talented, but those are the same groups that were more talented last year.  Not sure Clowney is better than Vernon whom he replaced.  Clowney has done little and been injured even more.

 

The Bills tackles are better? I am not sure I agree with that. I think the OL is clear advantage Cleveland. Only Dawkins of our 5 starts for them IMO.

 

Equally I think the Bills linebacker group is, as of now, way ahead. The Browns two best linebackers might be the two guys they drafted last weekend who I think it is expecting a lot of for them to our perform Edmunds and Milano as rookies.

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1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The Bills tackles are better? I am not sure I agree with that. I think the OL is clear advantage Cleveland. Only Dawkins of our 5 starts for them IMO.

 

Equally I think the Bills linebacker group is, as of now, way ahead. The Browns two best linebackers might be the two guys they drafted last weekend who I think it is expecting a lot of for them to our perform Edmunds and Milano as rookies.


 

That could be - I think Williams versus Conklin is a wash - Conklin is a bigger name, but struggled early.  He got better when they went to a run first game.  As I said - for each team the OLine is a better fit to do what they want.

 

Even if you go with Cleveland having a better OLine and I can live with that - I think overall the talent is a wash.  I just can not get behind all of the statements telling me Cleveland has far superior talent to the Bills and I can not get behind them clearly being the most talented team in the AFC.

 

Cleveland is a very talented team and should make the playoffs and be one of 3-4 teams that need to be reckoned with, but if I am ranking AFC teams at this moment it goes:


Top Tier

1) KC

2) Buff

3) Cleve

 

Next Tier

Baltimore, Indy, LA

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6 hours ago, Arm of Harm said:

 

Are the Bills a better regular season team than the Browns? I believe they are, especially when I think back to late season, when they were cutting through their opponents like a hot knife through butter. 

 

But when the postseason came, the Bills struggled to beat the Colts. The Colts wouldn't have been in the playoffs at all, had the Bills not beaten the Dolphins in week 17. Also, the Colts almost lost to lowly Jacksonville, in what (for them) was a must win-game. Based on how much better the Bills were than the Colts during the regular season, I expected them to win convincingly. But that's not what happened. 

 

The next week the Bills played the Ravens. Sure you could point to the final score and call it a convincing win. But the pick 6 was a 14 point swing. Had that one play been a TD instead of the pick 6, the game would have been either team's to win. So, once again a failure to beat a postseason opponent convincingly. Then there was the debacle against the Chiefs. For whatever reason, the Bills seemingly played at a lower level in the postseason than they had in the regular season. Until we get that problem fixed, we're in no position to look down our noses at a team like the Browns. Cleveland and Buffalo will win enough games to make it to the postseason, so it's the quality of postseason play which really matters. 

Agree with your last sentence.  Everything else is looking for excuses to discount the play of the Bills, or the opponents that they beat.  The ONLY thing that matters is the W at the end of the game.  You don’t get anything extra for “wining convincingly”.  

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41 minutes ago, RalphWilson'sNewWar said:

Browns just built for January Ball.  More than Buffalo.  One dimensional teams (no matter how good in the nice weather) just isn’t built for January Ball.

Of the 4 conference championship contenders, the 2nd, 3rd, 5th and 7th leading passers were playing. In the Super Bowl, the 2nd and 3rd leading passers were playing. Being able to pass the ball at a high level is much more important than being able to run it. At any time in the season. 
 

The ravens and browns were both top 3 in rushing yards and “built for January football” got beat in the playoffs by passing teams. 

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1 minute ago, chknwing334 said:

Of the 4 conference championship contenders, the 1st, 2nd, and 4th leading passers were playing. In the Super Bowl, the 1st and 2nd leading passers were playing. Being able to pass the ball at a high level is much more important than being able to run it. At any time in the season. 

Things need to change if Bills want to somehow carry that passing attack into January.  When the weather, the teams and Refs don’t play the same way they do on nice sunny day in early October.

 

The tiny Bills WRs are healthy in October.  The Refs throw that yellow early and often.

Allen’s rockets go unimpeded through fresh calm air.

 

But come the cold harsh realities of January...The tiny Bills WR are all limping on broken bodies...because based on their volume, you can’t honestly expect the tiny BILLS WR to stay healthy through 17-19 games.

 

the Refs decide to pocket the yellow.  Because no ref crew wants to be the story on Monday...leaving the opposing team more free reign to toss the tiny and injured Bills WRs around.

 

Colts Game - 2/9 on 3rd Down

Ravens Game - 4/13 on 3rd Down

Chiefs Game - 5/14 on 3rd Down

 

 Bills were 4th in the regular season on 3rd down.  Until they got to January Ball.

 

when the rules changed...the physicality changed and the one dimensional offense was exposed.  (Thank goodness for retiring Rivers and Lamar).

 

overall my point is have have a choice over which team can win multiple ways I’m gonna take the Browns in January over the bills right now until the bills can show me they can stay healthy and more diverse in January.

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1 hour ago, Rochesterfan said:


 

That could be - I think Williams versus Conklin is a wash - Conklin is a bigger name, but struggled early.  He got better when they went to a run first game.  As I said - for each team the OLine is a better fit to do what they want.

 

Even if you go with Cleveland having a better OLine and I can live with that - I think overall the talent is a wash.  I just can not get behind all of the statements telling me Cleveland has far superior talent to the Bills and I can not get behind them clearly being the most talented team in the AFC.

 

Cleveland is a very talented team and should make the playoffs and be one of 3-4 teams that need to be reckoned with, but if I am ranking AFC teams at this moment it goes:


Top Tier

1) KC

2) Buff

3) Cleve

 

Next Tier

Baltimore, Indy, LA

I agree. They both are pretty leveled out. That's where Allen comes in though and I think gives Bills the edge.

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2 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:


 

I keep hearing how they are more talented across the board and I just don’t see it.  They have some bigger names, but I am not sure they are better.

 

QB - Bills better by a ton

RB - Cleveland Better by a ton

OLine - Bills Tackles are better, Cleveland better inside - Bills are a better pass group and Browns better run blocking group. - wash

WRs - Bills more talented 

TEs - Cleveland most likely - they have a higher user rate

 

DLine - Cleveland by a ton - although this group is a lot of name other than Garrett the rest have done little in years

LB - Bills by a small margin - I think Milano is the best of the bunch but could go draw

DBs - I would give it to the Bills I think White is better than Ward and the Bills safeties are a hair better.

 

Overall I think the talent level is very close and the Bills are better than the Browns off the ball (QB, LB, DB, and WR), while the DLine, TEs, and RBs are clearly an advantage for Cleveland.  
 

I also think the Bills have a coaching advantage.

 

I think in the modern NFL - high quantity passing attack - the Bills offense is set to be far superior and the Browns defensive scheme makes them better and they will rank better because the offense is a running clock control offense.  I just do not see significantly more talent across the roster - I see some positions that are more talented, but those are the same groups that were more talented last year.  Not sure Clowney is better than Vernon whom he replaced.  Clowney has done little and been injured even more.

 

QB - Bills

RB - Cleveland

OL - Cleveland (Ours may be Top 10ish, but there's could be Top 5)

WR's - Bills

TE's  - Cleveland

 

DL - Cleveland (Myles Garret factor, while our DL is deep - mainly with potential)

LB - Bills 

DB's - Bills

 

Main issue for me is that on Defense, Myles Garrett is a proven game changer, which is something we don't have.  On Offense, they are balanced, with a dominant run game that opens up the passing game for Baker with proven talent at WR and TE.

 

If some of our potential guys like Oliver, Edmunds, Ford, Moss, Knox etc., make the jump - well then, the talent gap (outside of QB) closes pretty quick. 

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