Texas has frozen; Bring on the Green New Deal!!

[Tiberius]

2 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Please spare us all the plug on the virtues of socialism.  People help others on their own.  They don't need the government to tell them or force them to do it.  They do it on their own.  Voluntarily.  As witnessed by many charities and other non-government sponsored ways citizens help other citizens.  I know people in Texas and many with power and water are taking in friends and relatives that have neither.  They didn't need some government official to advise or direct them to take action.  It doesn't matter that the people they help are Democrats or Republicans or Liberals or Conservative.  

 

The core principles of Socialism are not about "helping people".  Its been an abysmal failure everywhere.  Socialism is an economic system that in theory seeks to divide the output of society in some "equitable" fashion.  In practice its a two tiered system with "insiders" are more equally treated than outsiders.  Outsiders being the common people not affiliated with the ruling class.  In that respect its fundamentally the same as our current system where DC insiders set all the rules we rock and roll to without much input from the peasants.  

 

The failure of the socialist system eventually falls to a fundamental problem.  While it focuses on an equitable distribution of consumption or rewards it avoids any mention of an equitable distribution of production and work.  Which at some point raises the question, if I work hard and produce 20 units of output then why do I only get 2 units of consumption which is the same as the guy that products 1 unit of output and gets 2 units of consumption?  Why am I working so hard for nothing?  I'm going to dial back my work to 2 units of output.  That way I get out what I put in.  Pretty soon everyone that's productive gets the same idea and the whole thing goes to hell and people have to eat zoo animals and their pets like what went down in Venezuela.  So if you're really into socialism don't forget to hang on to those grill Husky recipe ideas.  In a couple years you'll need them..          

In 1961 Ronald Reagan warned America that medicare would lead to socialist destruction of the country. 

 

Was he right? Medicare is pretty successful. So is SOCIALIST Security. 

 

 

Full blown socialism in dictatorships are a failure. But so is free market capitalism in dictatorships. 

 

 

We have socialist aspects of our system that work very well 

[Tenhigh]

2 hours ago, Tiberius said:

Perfect Republican, just let people die. How is he any different from the rest? 

Tibs, do you say this kinda stuff to people in the real world?

[Tiberius]

1 minute ago, Tenhigh said:

Tibs, do you say this kinda stuff to people in the real world?

Republicans called for herd immunity, that’s just let them die. Republicans are against government supported health care, just let them die, GOP is against common sense gun control , just let people get shot. Pollution, same. 

 

See a pattern here? 

[Tenhigh]

1 minute ago, Tiberius said:

Republicans called for herd immunity, that’s just let them die. Republicans are against government supported health care, just let them die, GOP is against common sense gun control , just let people get shot. Pollution, same. 

 

See a pattern here? 

It's a yes or no question.  See a pattern here?   I'm asking because I worry that if you act like this in public you're going to get yourself or someone else hurt.  Maybe it's just because I learned to communicate before the internet, but I don't think it is.   Try to listen instead of scream once in a while, you'll like it, I promise, and may find out the people you hate and thought are evil really aren't much different from you.  

[Tiberius]

1 minute ago, Tenhigh said:

It's a yes or no question.  See a pattern here?   I'm asking because I worry that if you act like this in public you're going to get yourself or someone else hurt.  Maybe it's just because I learned to communicate before the internet, but I don't think it is.   Try to listen instead of scream once in a while, you'll like it, I promise, and may find out the people you hate and thought are evil really aren't much different from you.  

Why should you worry about me? 

 

Why are you asking that? 

 

Cant you stick to the topic being discussed? 

[Tenhigh]

13 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Why should you worry about me? 

 

Why are you asking that? 

 

Cant you stick to the topic being discussed? 

I was pretty clear about why I'm asking, I think, I'm hoping you're not walking around getting punched in the nose all day. Why not discuss this topic instead of insulting each other for a while?   And you can't stop me from caring about you, unless you start rooting for the Patriots.

[SoCal Deek]

30 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Republicans called for herd immunity, that’s just let them die. Republicans are against government supported health care, just let them die, GOP is against common sense gun control , just let people get shot. Pollution, same. 

 

See a pattern here? 

I support all of the positions you outlined above. I'll let me die, if you'll do the same. 

[Tiberius]

Just now, Tenhigh said:

I was pretty clear about why I'm asking, I think, I'm hoping you're not walking around getting punched in the nose all day. Why not discuss this topic instead of insulting each other for a while?   And you can't stop me from caring about you, unless you start rooting for the Patriots.

Why make it personal? Seriously asking. Seems strange 

Just now, SoCal Deek said:

I support all of the positions you outlined above. I'll let me die, if you'll do the same. 

As long as you go first, I promise I will too. 

[SoCal Deek]

1 minute ago, Tiberius said:

 

As long as you go first, I promise I will too. 

I'm pretty sure I will. I am way older than all of your Junior High School classmates. 😛

[Tenhigh]

9 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Why make it personal? Seriously asking. Seems strange 

 

You really don't see how over the top your discussions are with people on this part of the board?  I'm guessing some of it must be because I'm probably a bit older than you, and this is how your generation learned to converse, at least online.  

[billsfan89]

Wind energy produces 20% of Texas's energy. This is just sad stupid propaganda for people who want to believe everything good is from the Republicans. 

 

https://www.texastribune.org/2021/02/16/texas-wind-turbines-frozen/

 

"Wind turbines — like natural gas plants — can be “winterized,” or modified to operate during very low temperatures. Experts say that many of Texas’ power generators have not made those investments necessary to prevent disruptions to equipment since the state does not regularly experience extreme winter storms."

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/wind-power-turbine-texas-power-outage-winter-storm-electrical-grid/

 

"Experts say traditional energy sources, including coal and natural gas, performed below expectations, while wind power actually performed above expectations."

[Doc Brown]

2 hours ago, dpberr said:

This is a warning shot across the bow of the country when it comes to not freezing to death.  

 

Regardless of which camp you sit in on climate change, you always need reliable standby fuel sources and *a lot* of it.  Coal and nuclear power continue to save the day in the northeast and people don't even notice. 

 

When demand goes up, guess what fires up?  Whatever coal plants and nuclear plants we have left when the natural gas pipelines can't generate the pressure.  Pennsylvania contributes a significant amount of production towards the grid on the eastern seaboard.  With each coal plant that closes and each generating station that gets decommissioned (Three Mile Island just closed), you lose that crucial standby energy for your cold snaps and heat waves.  

 

Natural gas, wind and solar can't do it and probably won't, even if you go to great lengths to winterize the infrastructure.  

 

I don't agree with Bill Gates on 99% of his opinions and projects but I do agree that the United States needs to design next generation nuclear power plants so that they could take the place of some of the coal plants.  

 

The Texans are paying the price of complacency and being cheap.   ERCOT got lazy, fat and happy and wasn't doing nearly enough worrying as they should have been.  They didn't think Texas could ever, ever get snow?  

Agreed for the most part (you could pry switch to nuclear energy only as a backup if you want to spend the dough).  You also make a great case with ERCOT on the danger of too few government regulations.

Edited February 17, 2021 by Doc Brown

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

8 hours ago, Tiberius said:

Lol, this is dumb. Actually, if the government doesn’t help, no one will 

I’d love to turn this into a poll to gauge the general surprise that Tibs made this statement above.. 
 

Government! Please help me! I can’t do anything without you telling me what to do or doing it for me! I’m incapable of doing anything myself! 
 

fortunately in many parts of the country, state, local, citizen organizations and even.., wait for it, businesses serving their customers make things happen, every day. 
 

 

 

 

[Motorin']

5 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

I’d love to turn this into a poll to gauge the general surprise that Tibs made this statement above.. 
 

Government! Please help me! I can’t do anything without you telling me what to do or doing it for me! I’m incapable of doing anything myself! 
 

fortunately in many parts of the country, state, local, citizen organizations and even.., wait for it, businesses serving their customers make things happen, every day. 
 

 

 

 

 

Are you really arguing that Texans without power pull themselves up by their boot straps and generate their own individual electrical power?

 

Did you run your own electrical grid or do you really on the evils of commie government power? 

[Buftex]

13 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

This is why I hate politics. 

 

People aren't that stupid to believe wind and solar are the reason Texas power failed. Politics will make people say and do anything to defend their party. 

Our useless  governer (Abbott) was doing press earlier today, blaming the outages on freezing natural gas sources...but withing an hour or two, he got the talking points to blame it on the New Green Deal. 

15 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

I’d love to turn this into a poll to gauge the general surprise that Tibs made this statement above.. 
 

Government! Please help me! I can’t do anything without you telling me what to do or doing it for me! I’m incapable of doing anything myself! 
 

fortunately in many parts of the country, state, local, citizen organizations and even.., wait for it, businesses serving their customers make things happen, every day. 
 

 

 

 

Not in this case buddy!

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

18 minutes ago, Buftex said:

Our useless  governer (Abbott) was doing press earlier today, blaming the outages on freezing natural gas sources...but withing an hour or two, he got the talking points to blame it on the New Green Deal. 

That’s pretty poor.  I understand how the wind turbines and supporting batteries being hit much worse proportionately would lead to thinking if it was all wind it might have been a worse situation, but green new deal is irrelevant to the current grid. Too bad that was the message. Garbage.  

24 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

Are you really arguing that Texans without power pull themselves up by their boot straps and generate their own individual electrical power?

 

Did you run your own electrical grid or do you really on the evils of commie government power? 

the feds don’t restore my power when it goes out, pepco does. Do people really not understand where their utility payments go? 
 

I cannot believe we live in a world where there are so many people so disconnected with reality they think the federal government provides or would actually be capable of providing their water, power, internet probably cell phone coverage.  
 

Please for the love of god... verify  where you send your utility payments then look up those companies. Understand they do not all work directly for the president of the us. 
 

😳

Edited February 18, 2021 by Over 29 years of fanhood

[Wacka]

25 minutes ago, Buftex said:

Our useless  governer (Abbott) was doing press earlier today, blaming the outages on freezing natural gas sources...but withing an hour or two, he got the talking points to blame it on the New Green Deal. 

Not in this case buddy!

 

[Buftex]

11 minutes ago, Wacka said:

 

Got it chief!

[Motorin']

1 hour ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

That’s pretty poor.  I understand how the wind turbines and supporting batteries being hit much worse proportionately would lead to thinking if it was all wind it might have been a worse situation, but green new deal is irrelevant to the current grid. Too bad that was the message. Garbage.  

the feds don’t restore my power when it goes out, pepco does. Do people really not understand where their utility payments go? 
 

I cannot believe we live in a world where there are so many people so disconnected with reality they think the federal government provides or would actually be capable of providing their water, power, internet probably cell phone coverage.  
 

Please for the love of god... verify  where you send your utility payments then look up those companies. Understand they do not all work directly for the president of the us. 
 

😳

 

You get your electricity from a federally regulated public utility. The power grid that spans the the Eastern half of the US which shares power across state lines is run by the Regional Transmission Organization enacted by the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission. 

 

So you might be getting your power from the plants that Excelon / Pepco owns. But they may be buying that power through the federal RTO when they can't meet their demand.

 

It is true that over 70% of the power generated currently in the US is generated by corporations. But there are energy producers that are owned and operated by federal, state and local government, as well as co-op owned.

 

Texas has opted out of the Federal Interstate RTO grid. So when they can't meet their demand they can't buy power from another source. And they have also chosen not to meet federal winterization standards, which would have prevented their current shortage. 

 

They are down 30% production in coal, gas and nuclear this week because they chose not to winterize. Wind is also down 30% due to lack of winterization, while solar is up 100%. But if they participated in the interstate grid they wouldn't be without power at all this week. 

 

In any event, read up on Roosevelt's New Deal sometime and let me know how much of the country the federal government is responsible for providing the electrical grid to. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 18, 2021 by Motorin'

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

13 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

In any event, read up on Roosevelt's New Deal sometime and let me know how much of the country the federal government is responsible for providing the electrical grid to. 

what are the learning objectives? 

 

I don’t blame Texas for isolating. This country is a shocking disaster.

[SoTier]

7 hours ago, Tenhigh said:

You really don't see how over the top your discussions are with people on this part of the board?  I'm guessing some of it must be because I'm probably a bit older than you, and this is how your generation learned to converse, at least online.  

 

Pot meet kettle.  

 

48 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

That’s pretty poor.  I understand how the wind turbines and supporting batteries being hit much worse proportionately would lead to thinking if it was all wind it might have been a worse situation, but green new deal is irrelevant to the current grid. Too bad that was the message. Garbage.  

the feds don’t restore my power when it goes out, pepco does. Do people really not understand where their utility payments go? 
 

I cannot believe we live in a world where there are so many people so disconnected with reality they think the federal government provides or would actually be capable of providing their water, power, internet probably cell phone coverage.  
 

Please for the love of god... verify  where you send your utility payments then look up those companies. Understand they do not all work directly for the president of the us. 
 

😳

 

All levels of government -- federal, state, local -- have a responsibility to "provide for the general welfare" which includes protecting residents of their jurisdictions from natural or man-made dangers that can be anticipated.  Which level of government has the most responsibility depends upon whether the problem affects people in numerous states or within one state or within a local area within a state.  In the case of Texas, 150 power plants of nearly 700 in the state have failed -- apparently all within the Texas grid -- which puts the problem on the state level.  The Texas electric grid has failed twice before under severe winter weather, in 1989 and again in 2011, so the state can't pretend this failure couldn't have been anticipated, and the solution would have been to require the power plants in Texas to be winterized as they obviously have been in neighboring states like Oklahoma.  That's where the government of Texas failed its residents.  It created its own in-state power grid to avoid federal regulation and then created a non-profit organization to manage the Texas grid to absolve the state from its responsibility.

[BillStime]

For those worried about Ted Cruz - he’s safe in Cancun!

 

 

 

Typical QOP.

 

[BillStime]

 

 

[Motorin']

56 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

what are the learning objectives? 

 

I don’t blame Texas for isolating. This country is a shocking disaster.

The New Deal started a number of federal initiatives. The Tennesee Valley Authority is a great example. 

 

The TVA provides power to about 10 million people. They generate over 10 billion I revenue and over 1 billion in net profits per year. They have paid back all of the Federal money invested in it. They pay the federal government equity payments, and reinvest the remaining profits into their infrastructure upkeep and in regional economic development, job creation, business loans ect.

 

They are more reliable than Pepco or ComEd, have lower rates, and turn a profit for both the government and region. 

 

You and I both pay companies owned by Excelon, who is in business to generate profits for their investors. When it comes to public utilities that benefit all citizens, I would much rather pay less per month to a government owned corporation and have the revenue inturn reinvested in my local region while reducing my federal tax burden. 

 

 

[BillStime]

1 minute ago, Motorin' said:

The New Deal started a number of federal initiatives. The Tennesee Valley Authority is a great example. 

 

The TVA provides power to about 10 million people. They generate over 10 billion I revenue and over 1 billion in net profits per year. They have paid back all of the Federal money invested in it. They pay the federal government equity payments, and reinvest the remaining profits into their infrastructure upkeep and in regional economic development, job creation, business loans ect.

 

They are more reliable than Pepco or ComEd, have lower rates, and turn a profit for both the government and region. 

 

You and I both pay companies owned by Excelon, who is in business to generate profits for their investors. When it comes to public utilities that benefit all citizens, I would much rather pay less per month to a government owned corporation and have the revenue inturn reinvested in my local region while reducing my federal tax burden. 

 

 

Thoughts on the NY Power Authority?

[billsfan89]

10 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

The New Deal started a number of federal initiatives. The Tennesee Valley Authority is a great example. 

 

The TVA provides power to about 10 million people. They generate over 10 billion I revenue and over 1 billion in net profits per year. They have paid back all of the Federal money invested in it. They pay the federal government equity payments, and reinvest the remaining profits into their infrastructure upkeep and in regional economic development, job creation, business loans ect.

 

They are more reliable than Pepco or ComEd, have lower rates, and turn a profit for both the government and region. 

 

You and I both pay companies owned by Excelon, who is in business to generate profits for their investors. When it comes to public utilities that benefit all citizens, I would much rather pay less per month to a government owned corporation and have the revenue inturn reinvested in my local region while reducing my federal tax burden. 

 

 

 

The USA turning its back on the New Deal Era policies since the early 80's has really screwed this county over. One of the reasons for the post WWII boom was the fact the USA had been spending the previous 10 years prior to entering the war building hospitals, roads, trails for national and local parks, dams, power and phone lines and various other types of infrastructure. 

[Motorin']

16 minutes ago, BillStime said:

Thoughts on the NY Power Authority?

 

I wonder if the guys telling us we'll need to eat our dogs if we adopt socialist polices think the Niagra Falls power plant should be owned by foreign companies like NationalGrid, or if they're ok with it being owned by NY State.

[Tiberius]

6 hours ago, BillStime said:

For those worried about Ted Cruz - he’s safe in Cancun!

 

 

 

Typical QOP.

 

What a pos 

 

 

5 hours ago, billsfan89 said:

 

The USA turning its back on the New Deal Era policies since the early 80's has really screwed this county over. One of the reasons for the post WWII boom was the fact the USA had been spending the previous 10 years prior to entering the war building hospitals, roads, trails for national and local parks, dams, power and phone lines and various other types of infrastructure. 

And the Eisenhower followed up with the interstate highway act, the biggest public works project in history. Investing in America works. China seems to get that new infrastructure is important, the Republicans, not so much 

[SoTier]

5 hours ago, BillStime said:

Thoughts on the NY Power Authority?

 

It's a state version of the TVA, which isn't surprising since it was created in 1931 by then NY governor Franklin Roosevelt.  It produces some of the lowest cost electricity in the nation, about 70% of it from renewable energy produced by its massive hydroelectric generating facilities at Niagara Falls and Massena.   It sells power to consumers via private electric utility companies such as National Grid which are required to pass those savings on to their customers.  I believe it also sells low cost power directly to large industrial facilities within the state.

 

 

 

 

 

[SoTier]

5 hours ago, Motorin' said:

 

I wonder if the guys telling us we'll need to eat our dogs if we adopt socialist polices think the Niagra Falls power plant should be owned by foreign companies like NationalGrid, or if they're ok with it being owned by NY State.

 

The little city I live in, Jamestown, has had "public power", ie government owned electric system, since the 1890s.  It has provided cheap, reliable power to both the City of Jamestown and the Town of Ellicott for 130 years.   There are a number of small scale publicly-owned electric utilities and co-operatives scattered throughout upstate NY. 

[Tiberius]

24 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

It's a state version of the TVA, which isn't surprising since it was created in 1931 by then NY governor Franklin Roosevelt.  It produces some of the lowest cost electricity in the nation, about 70% of it from renewable energy produced by its massive hydroelectric generating facilities at Niagara Falls and Massena.   It sells power to consumers via private electric utility companies such as National Grid which are required to pass those savings on to their customers.  I believe it also sells low cost power directly to large industrial facilities within the state.

 

 

 

 

 

I’m sure you have seen the wind farms growing throughout the southern tier. Nice to see! 

[BillStime]

 

[Tenhigh]

9 hours ago, SoTier said:

 

Pot meet kettle.  

 

Am I the pot and you are the kettle? Or him? If you can find an example of me acting toward anyone on this board the way that Tibs acts, I would love to see it.  I try to have rational discussions with people of different viewpoints. Lots here aren't interested in that, and it sucks.

[Tiberius]

 

 

 

[BillStime]

Typical GQP

 

[All_Pro_Bills]

10 hours ago, SoTier said:

 

Pot meet kettle.  

 

 

All levels of government -- federal, state, local -- have a responsibility to "provide for the general welfare" which includes protecting residents of their jurisdictions from natural or man-made dangers that can be anticipated.  Which level of government has the most responsibility depends upon whether the problem affects people in numerous states or within one state or within a local area within a state.  In the case of Texas, 150 power plants of nearly 700 in the state have failed -- apparently all within the Texas grid -- which puts the problem on the state level.  The Texas electric grid has failed twice before under severe winter weather, in 1989 and again in 2011, so the state can't pretend this failure couldn't have been anticipated, and the solution would have been to require the power plants in Texas to be winterized as they obviously have been in neighboring states like Oklahoma.  That's where the government of Texas failed its residents.  It created its own in-state power grid to avoid federal regulation and then created a non-profit organization to manage the Texas grid to absolve the state from its responsibility.

I hear what you're saying and think you're on the right track here.  And from the posts we don't usually agree.  A distinction to our views might be you may perceive this as some type of negligence rather than how I see it as a conscious choice.  In my view you get what you pay for?  Right? 

 

If you want to live in a state that provides its citizen's "more freedom" from government oversight and over-reach and interference in every day life and as a result has little regulation and low/no state income taxes and a cheaper cost of living vs. liberal nanny state States and limited government authority which leaves a lot of things to the private sector to sort out and determine then you need to at least understand and acknowledge what potential risks and rewards that set up might produce.  So if the residents of Texas want to pay for the "risk mitigation cost" of taking the precautions of insuring this condition never occurs again they can do that by putting up the funds in one form or another to eliminate the risks.  Reminds me of what we say in project management, good, fast, or cheap. Pick 2.     

Edited February 18, 2021 by All_Pro_Bills

[716er]

Glad to see Ted's vacation was worth diverting resources during a natural disaster

 

 

[\GoBillsInDallas/]

 

[billsfan89]

6 hours ago, Tiberius said:

And the Eisenhower followed up with the interstate highway act, the biggest public works project in history. Investing in America works. China seems to get that new infrastructure is important, the Republicans, not so much 

 

The Dems also fail to seize their opportunities (The GOP is far worse definitely the worse of two evils). The Obama era stimulus deal (and the first two years of the Obama era in general) was a big opportunity to actually push massive infrastructure programs forward. I think 40% of the stimulus was tax cuts as an example. America needs a New New Deal badly. Without bold and proper government infrastructure programs the can really can't be kicked down the road any longer.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

This Cruz triggering is hilarious..  I’m no fan of his but wow. 
 

Also while he is directly quoted as saying his daughters had a planned get away with friends and he just traveled with them and then returned working the whole time, the stories don’t mention that... see AP headline and they only quoted the ‘took them down there’ out of context. Man AP really disappoints me... I really once believed they were reputable news source and not a the enquirer 

 

https://apnews.com/article/b0cdc326db95bf25d93de9e877e05862

Edited February 18, 2021 by Over 29 years of fanhood