Canceling student loans

[Buffarukus]

8 minutes ago, Backintheday544 said:

If you’d like to provide demonstrative proof the Biden admin knew the program was unconstitutional when proposing it, please provide it.

 

Separately, if you’d like to provide proof the program is unconstitutional if they put it through the APA notice and comment period as provided in the latest court case please provide that.

 

Otherwise let the grown ups talk.

 

if you listen to Brianna joy grey speak and alot of other progressives (shes in a quote a few right above your message)... or other people who actually do want loan forgiveness (krystal ball ect ect) they brought up more sound laws that biden could have used to get this done. they been questioning why biden used such a very weak emergency order to try to achieve this and had HUGE doubts it would hold up. seeing as biden has access to the top lawyers in the country one has to think if this does not pass it was intentional to con voters. I'm no lawyer but seeing as what they said would happen has been halted by the courts relatively quickly. no reason to think they were wrong.

 

 

[Doc]

Didn't Nancy say that only Congress can cancel student load debt, not Joke on his own?

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

1 hour ago, Backintheday544 said:

If you’d like to provide demonstrative proof the Biden admin knew the program was unconstitutional when proposing it, please provide it.

 

Separately, if you’d like to provide proof the program is unconstitutional if they put it through the APA notice and comment period as provided in the latest court case please provide that.

 

Otherwise let the grown ups talk.

Demonstrative proof  … that’s grown up talk?  in Appalachia ? 

 

any way, this loan forgiveness ‘promise’ looks every bit like a vote buying political stunt done so with full understanding of legal barriers, potentially insurmountable, which was curiously timed just prior to midterms and you well know it, sometimes, depending on which post. 

8 minutes ago, Doc said:

Didn't Nancy say that only Congress can cancel student load debt, not Joke on his own?

Yes in July of 21.. in a very public engagement with legal teams and the Whitehouse and press corp.

 

but I think they left out the most educated poster in the history of the internet who’s the real legal expert here. 

 

 

Edited November 12, 2022 by Over 29 years of fanhood

[Capco]

@Backintheday544 Are you a lawyer?  If so, you're wasting your energy trying to explain the nuance of the law to people who don't know how to think like a lawyer.

I'd assume almost anyone would be able to understand that the question of constitutionality is often not an easy one; if it was, then every judicial vote on the question would be unanimous and we wouldn't even need judicial review for it.  It's a basic conclusion.  

Unfortunately, like someone said earlier, we have a dumb electorate... so even the basics can be hard to convey.  

[SoCal Deek]

14 hours ago, Capco said:

@Backintheday544 Are you a lawyer?  If so, you're wasting your energy trying to explain the nuance of the law to people who don't know how to think like a lawyer.

I'd assume almost anyone would be able to understand that the question of constitutionality is often not an easy one; if it was, then every judicial vote on the question would be unanimous and we wouldn't even need judicial review for it.  It's a basic conclusion.  

Unfortunately, like someone said earlier, we have a dumb electorate... so even the basics can be hard to convey.  

I couldn’t help but read your post in the voice of Professor Housman. 😉 But you forgot the part about ‘minds full of mush’. 

[Chef Jim]

18 hours ago, Backintheday544 said:

Critical thinking isn’t your forte. It’s ok. Not everyone is meant to be smart or understand basic concepts of the law or even simple analogies.

 

Ill try to break this down for you to match your intellect.

 

Misinformation that was provided: Biden knew the student loan program was unconditional 

 

Why is it misinformation: 

- no evidence has been provide the the admin thought it was unconstitutional

- several challenges to the law have ended up in the Biden admin winning

- the current challenge isn’t that the program is unconstitutional, it’s that it didn’t go through notice and comment under the APA and is being appealed

 

Your silly attempt at saying the Biden admin knows it’s unconstitutional: Because it’s been challenged on courts

 

Why that’s an argument even a person with an 8 year olds intellect wouldn’t make: administrations get challenged on programs all the time. The fact of knowing something would get challenged doesn’t mean they know it’s unconstitutional. 
 

Based on your flawed logic and arguments, I’m unable to tell if you have a basic high school education, but if you do maybe look at a place like SNHU to help you further your education and develop some critical thinking.

 

Heres a link to the application:

https://www.snhu.edu/admission/campus-admission
 

If you keep your student loans to under $10,000, the new student forgiveness plan announced by Biden will have complete forgiveness in just 5 years.

 

Ahhh the condescending liberal.  You should move to the Bay Area.  You’d fit right in. 

[Irv]

What a mess.  

[Orlando Tim]

On 11/12/2022 at 3:45 PM, Backintheday544 said:

If you’d like to provide demonstrative proof the Biden admin knew the program was unconstitutional when proposing it, please provide it.

 

Separately, if you’d like to provide proof the program is unconstitutional if they put it through the APA notice and comment period as provided in the latest court case please provide that.

 

Otherwise let the grown ups talk.

U.S. District Judge Mark Pittman, a Trump appointee, ruled on Thursday that Biden’s debt relief program is “an unconstitutional exercise of Congress’s legislative power and must be vacated.”

 

Unless the supreme court rules differently then it is unconstitutional. As for whether Biden knew it was unconstitutional, no one can say for sure what he knows anymore but according to the NYT:

Last week, President Biden announced a plan to wipe out up to $20,000 of student loan debt for tens of millions of low- and middle-income Americans, in a striking about-face for a president who just last year doubted whether he had the unilateral authority to cancel student loan debt on such a broad basis.

 

Seriously it took like three minutes of a search.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

49 minutes ago, Orlando Tim said:

U.S. District Judge Mark Pittman, a Trump appointee, ruled on Thursday that Biden’s debt relief program is “an unconstitutional exercise of Congress’s legislative power and must be vacated.”

 

Unless the supreme court rules differently then it is unconstitutional. As for whether Biden knew it was unconstitutional, no one can say for sure what he knows anymore but according to the NYT:

Last week, President Biden announced a plan to wipe out up to $20,000 of student loan debt for tens of millions of low- and middle-income Americans, in a striking about-face for a president who just last year doubted whether he had the unilateral authority to cancel student loan debt on such a broad basis.

 

Seriously it took like three minutes of a search.

This might be proof, but I’m not sure about ‘demonstrative proof’.  I think that requires acting something out… like highly educated grown ups do

[ALF]

Biden is using this act of Congress to justify loan forgiveness 

The HEROES Act was passed after 9-11 that allows for the forgiveness of student loan requirements during certain periods of hardship in the country, like during a war or national emergency.Aug 30, 2022

 

In order for it to actually face a legal challenge though, someone would have to make a case in court that they've been harmed by the widespread student debt cancelation. 

 

https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/verify/what-is-the-heroes-act-and-what-does-it-have-to-do-with-student-loans/65-a0d32f79-876f-48cf-83c2-5c8df8f0449e#:~:text=The HEROES Act was passed,a war or national emergency.

[Orlando Tim]

44 minutes ago, ALF said:

Biden is using this act of Congress to justify loan forgiveness 

The HEROES Act was passed after 9-11 that allows for the forgiveness of student loan requirements during certain periods of hardship in the country, like during a war or national emergency.Aug 30, 2022

 

In order for it to actually face a legal challenge though, someone would have to make a case in court that they've been harmed by the widespread student debt cancelation. 

 

https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/verify/what-is-the-heroes-act-and-what-does-it-have-to-do-with-student-loans/65-a0d32f79-876f-48cf-83c2-5c8df8f0449e#:~:text=The HEROES Act was passed,a war or national emergency.

This has all already been covered and a judge ruled it was unconstitutional- take a look a few posts prior to yours. 

[ALF]

2 minutes ago, Orlando Tim said:

This has all already been covered and a judge ruled it was unconstitutional- take a look a few posts prior to yours. 

 

It will be appealed , one judge saying it's unconstitutional  does not make it final.

[Backintheday544]

9 hours ago, Orlando Tim said:

U.S. District Judge Mark Pittman, a Trump appointee, ruled on Thursday that Biden’s debt relief program is “an unconstitutional exercise of Congress’s legislative power and must be vacated.”

 

Unless the supreme court rules differently then it is unconstitutional. As for whether Biden knew it was unconstitutional, no one can say for sure what he knows anymore but according to the NYT:

Last week, President Biden announced a plan to wipe out up to $20,000 of student loan debt for tens of millions of low- and middle-income Americans, in a striking about-face for a president who just last year doubted whether he had the unilateral authority to cancel student loan debt on such a broad basis.

 

Seriously it took like three minutes of a search.

No…… You don’t really understand the American legal system.

 

1. there is an appeals court after the district court that is not the Supreme Court. That is where the case will go first.

 

2. It was ruled unconstitutional by this lower court judge because it violated the Administrative Procedures Act that requires notice and comments for most Federal action. The Biden admin content that this did not need notice and comment because it is exempt from APA by statute.

 

So the Constitutional issue that will go before the Appeals court and then the Supreme Court here is whether or not the action needed go through APA procedures.
 

(The secondary issue is whether these people even have standing and this is most likely the issue that will win at Appeals and the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court has already shot down 2 standing issues related to this program)

[Chef Jim]

2 hours ago, ALF said:

Biden is using this act of Congress to justify loan forgiveness 

The HEROES Act was passed after 9-11 that allows for the forgiveness of student loan requirements during certain periods of hardship in the country, like during a war or national emergency.Aug 30, 2022

 

In order for it to actually face a legal challenge though, someone would have to make a case in court that they've been harmed by the widespread student debt cancelation. 

 

https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/verify/what-is-the-heroes-act-and-what-does-it-have-to-do-with-student-loans/65-a0d32f79-876f-48cf-83c2-5c8df8f0449e#:~:text=The HEROES Act was passed,a war or national emergency.

Ok this could work. But prove your hardship.  There are hardship rules regarding early distributions for 401k’s that eliminate the pre 59 1/2 10% penalty.  Having loan debt does not itself constitute a hardship.  Especially if you’re making a quarter million a year. 

[SoCal Deek]

29 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

Ok this could work. But prove your hardship.  There are hardship rules regarding early distributions for 401k’s that eliminate the pre 59 1/2 10% penalty.  Having loan debt does not itself constitute a hardship.  Especially if you’re making a quarter million a year. 

Or maybe, just maybe, the government should stop loaning money to people. Problem solved! 

[Chef Jim]

1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said:

Or maybe, just maybe, the government should stop loaning money to people. Problem solved! 

Too late.  That ship has sailed.  BTW when are they going to forgive VA loans?   So they care about little Muffin and her lack of income from her gender studies degree that put her $50k in debt but not the guy/gal who, ***** voluntarily, risked his/her life to defend us?    WTF is that noise???  😡😡😡

[SoCal Deek]

1 minute ago, Chef Jim said:

Too late.  That ship has sailed.  BTW when are they going to forgive VA loans?   So they care about little Muffin and her lack of income from her gender studies degree that put her $50k in debt but not the guy/gal who, ***** voluntarily, risked his/her life to defend us?    WTF is that noise???  😡😡😡

You can continue to get mad at the symptoms but I’m hoping to cure the cause. 

[Chef Jim]

5 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

You can continue to get mad at the symptoms but I’m hoping to cure the cause. 

Hahahahaha!!   Good luck.  The cancer is incurable.   Hope you take disappointment well. Oh wait……Bills fan.  Carry on. 

[Westside]

13 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

Too late.  That ship has sailed.  BTW when are they going to forgive VA loans?   So they care about little Muffin and her lack of income from her gender studies degree that put her $50k in debt but not the guy/gal who, ***** voluntarily, risked his/her life to defend us?    WTF is that noise???  😡😡😡

We've never been good at taking care of our veterans. Damn shame!

[SoCal Deek]

50 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

Hahahahaha!!   Good luck.  The cancer is incurable.   Hope you take disappointment well. Oh wait……Bills fan.  Carry on. 

I’m not saying they’re going to fix it. But I’m done getting mad about it. This country WAY beyond fixing. 

[B-Man]

 

 

 

OUT ON A LIMB: 

 

Former Bernie Sanders Press Secretary Accuses Biden of Using ‘Faulty’ Student-Loan Forgiveness Order for Votes.

https://www.nationalreview.com/news/former-bernie-sanders-press-secretary-accuses-biden-of-using-faulty-student-loan-forgiveness-order-for-votes/?utm_source=recirc-desktop&utm_medium=homepage&utm_campaign=river&utm_content=featured-content-trending&utm_term=first

 

 

 

Flashback to the New York Sun in August: 

 

If It Sounds Like an Election Year Handout, That’s Because It Is.

 

https://www.nysun.com/article/if-it-sounds-like-an-election-year-handout-thats-because-it-is

 

 

 

.

[Chef Jim]

1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said:

I’m not saying they’re going to fix it. But I’m done getting mad about it. This country WAY beyond fixing. 

 

Well you said you're hoping to cure the cause.  If that's the case you may be done getting made (angry) but you'll go mad.  

[SoCal Deek]

12 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

 

Well you said you're hoping to cure the cause.  If that's the case you may be done getting made (angry) but you'll go mad.  

Too late….I went mad a long long time ago. There’s no fixing this broken three ring circus any more. 

[B-Man]

Appeals court agrees with federal judge & halts Biden’s unilateral student loan ‘cancellation’

 

 

https://twitchy.com/dougp-3137/2022/11/14/appeals-court-agrees-with-federal-judge-halts-bidens-unilateral-student-loan-cancellation/

[Backintheday544]

5 hours ago, B-Man said:

Appeals court agrees with federal judge & halts Biden’s unilateral student loan ‘cancellation’

 

 

https://twitchy.com/dougp-3137/2022/11/14/appeals-court-agrees-with-federal-judge-halts-bidens-unilateral-student-loan-cancellation/

False and misleading title there.

 

The appeals court issued an injunction while the case is decided. The appeals court has not made a determination on if the program is constitutional or not. It simply said the program needs to be on hold until a decision could be made because not granting an injunction could be detrimental  to a party.

 

If you would like to read the opinion, it is here:

 

https://ecf.ca8.uscourts.gov/opndir/22/11/223179P.pdf

 

 

[BillsFanNC]

 

[BillStime]

 

 

[Backintheday544]

Good break down on issues with the Trump judges ruling:

 

 

 

[Greg S]

[B-Man]

 

 

White House Files Emergency SCOTUS Appeal in Attempt to Save Student Loan Wealth-Redistribution Scheme

By Mike Miller

 

 

https://redstate.com/mike_miller/2022/11/18/white-house-files-emergency-scotus-appeal-in-attempt-to-save-student-loan-wealth-redistribution-scheme-n660794

 

 

.

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

On 11/15/2022 at 7:22 AM, BillStime said:

 

 

Before we get to Rep Jayapal, do you know the difference between the two scenarios she's upset about?  

[BillStime]

10 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

Before we get to Rep Jayapal, do you know the difference between the two scenarios she's upset about?  

I do not care - socialism is ok when it’s disguised as PPP but not a dime for peasants - got it.

 

Millionaires for billionaires 

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

1 hour ago, BillStime said:

I do not care - socialism is ok when it’s disguised as PPP but not a dime for peasants - got it.

 

Millionaires for billionaires 

I’m not sure I understand you here.  You don’t care about that you don’t understand the differences in the two programs, or you don’t care that socialism is ok in certain scenarios?  
 

I guess I’m confused, too, about the characterization of people as peasants and them not receiving a dime.  It stands to reason, and is extraordinarily likely that many, many, many people who would stand to benefit from the Biden forgiveness program benefited directly—and significantly from PPP.  

 

My recollection is that the calculation was roughly 10 weeks of salary was passed loaned to business owners to protect paychecks of employees  during the lockdown.  So, I don’t know, an individual making $115k would stand to receive around $24,000, and his partner making $97,500 would receive around $20k.  I didn’t look up the parameters, so maybe I’m 10% high on my assessments.  
 

You support socialism (I think), but would have preferred the people in desperate need of student debt relief not get the $45k during the government shutdown, just because Biden is having trouble figuring out how relieve student loan debt without tripping over constitutional issues?  
 

 

[BillStime]

31 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

I’m not sure I understand you here.  You don’t care about that you don’t understand the differences in the two programs, or you don’t care that socialism is ok in certain scenarios?  
 

I guess I’m confused, too, about the characterization of people as peasants and them not receiving a dime.  It stands to reason, and is extraordinarily likely that many, many, many people who would stand to benefit from the Biden forgiveness program benefited directly—and significantly from PPP.  

 

My recollection is that the calculation was roughly 10 weeks of salary was passed loaned to business owners to protect paychecks of employees  during the lockdown.  So, I don’t know, an individual making $115k would stand to receive around $24,000, and his partner making $97,500 would receive around $20k.  I didn’t look up the parameters, so maybe I’m 10% high on my assessments.  
 

You support socialism (I think), but would have preferred the people in desperate need of student debt relief not get the $45k during the government shutdown, just because Biden is having trouble figuring out how relieve student loan debt without tripping over constitutional issues?  
 

 

So long winded.
 

So the PPP socialist Trump bonanza that somehow cannot account for a $100 BILLION dollars is ok but helping out the average American with their student loan debt is just a bridge too far.

 

No doubt people in your family would benefit from this relief and would even champion it if Trump did this.

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

10 minutes ago, BillStime said:

So long winded.
 

So the PPP socialist Trump bonanza that somehow cannot account for a $100 BILLION dollars is ok but helping out the average American with their student loan debt is just a bridge too far.

 

No doubt people in your family would benefit from this relief and would even champion it if Trump did this.

When Biden declared student loan debt amnesty, I encouraged family members who would benefit to apply for debt forgiveness. 
 

Prior to that, I encouraged my family members to make sensible choices in education, and to understand the basic math on debt load, field of study as it related to future employment opportunities, personal financial wellness and the basics of honoring their obligations.  As a stakeholder in their education, I also understood the power of saying “no”, and said it more than once.  It worked very, very well for us, though it was not without significant cost and some sacrifice.
 

PPP was a bipartisan program designed to put money in the pocket of people who otherwise may not have been paid. I don’t know why you have a problem with this, mostly because you haven’t articulated why.  I think for people with student loan debt, the money they received from PPP would help them with their debt.  

 

 If your argument is against corruption, government waste, and competence, we agree.  
 

 

 

[Chef Jim]

40 minutes ago, BillStime said:

So long winded.
 

So the PPP socialist Trump bonanza that somehow cannot account for a $100 BILLION dollars is ok but helping out the average American with their student loan debt is just a bridge too far.

 

No doubt people in your family would benefit from this relief and would even champion it if Trump did this.

How is PPP Socialism?

 
How are either of these two programs even remotely similar.  What economic hardship not of their making are these student loan carriers suffering from?  

[BillStime]

37 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

When Biden declared student loan debt amnesty, I encouraged family members who would benefit to apply for debt forgiveness. 
 

Prior to that, I encouraged my family members to make sensible choices in education, and to understand the basic math on debt load, field of study as it related to future employment opportunities, personal financial wellness and the basics of honoring their obligations.  As a stakeholder in their education, I also understood the power of saying “no”, and said it more than once.  It worked very, very well for us, though it was not without significant cost and some sacrifice.
 

PPP was a bipartisan program designed to put money in the pocket of people who otherwise may not have been paid. I don’t know why you have a problem with this, mostly because you haven’t articulated why.  I think for people with student loan debt, the money they received from PPP would help them with their debt.  

 

 If your argument is against corruption, government waste, and competence, we agree.  
 

 

 

I don’t have an issue with PPP.

 

I do find it hilarious that every PPP dime was forgiven.

 

I also find it hilarious that $100 Billion just magically disappeared under Trumps watch. 
 

I also find it hysterical that you are bending over backwards to trash a program designed to benefit average Americans while trying to explain to me why PPP was essential.

 

And again, where did that $100 Billion go?

 

 

 

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

1 hour ago, BillStime said:

I don’t have an issue with PPP.

 

I do find it hilarious that every PPP dime was forgiven.

 

I also find it hilarious that $100 Billion just magically disappeared under Trumps watch. 
 

I also find it hysterical that you are bending over backwards to trash a program designed to benefit average Americans while trying to explain to me why PPP was essential.

 

And again, where did that $100 Billion go?

 

 

 

You’re straying farther and farther from the point. 
 

I didn’t say PPP was essential, Congress did. 

I agree if there was corruption it should be addressed. We agree here. 

I don’t like the Student Loan forgiveness program, but recognize people should avail themselves of benefits should Biden ever  figure out how to administer the program correctly.  We disagree on the policy, but agree on how it should play out if it comes to pass. 
 

That would help the average Americans you seem to like on Student Loan forgiveness but seem to have contempt for if they got a check through PPP. If your hunch is that Trump pocketed a hundred bills,  throw it on the list for the next lynch mob. 

 

If you have an issue with decisions made in preparing and administering the loans, you should look to the Congress that passed it. 
 

Glad we agree on the things that we agree on.  

[Chef Jim]

11 hours ago, BillStime said:

I don’t have an issue with PPP.

 

I do find it hilarious that every PPP dime was forgiven.

 

I also find it hilarious that $100 Billion just magically disappeared under Trumps watch. 
 

I also find it hysterical that you are bending over backwards to trash a program designed to benefit average Americans while trying to explain to me why PPP was essential.

 

And again, where did that $100 Billion go?

 

 

 

Do you agree that families making $250k are not “average Americans”?  
 

Quit comparing two completely different programs and discuss why you feel student loans should be forgiven. 
 

Can you tell us how much the monthly payment is on a $10k student loan? 

[BillStime]

5 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

Do you agree that families making $250k are not “average Americans”?  
 

Quit comparing two completely different programs and discuss why you feel student loans should be forgiven. 
 

Can you tell us how much the monthly payment is on a $10k student loan? 

Do you think someone making $125k and living in LA or NY is above average?

Don’t worry Jim - I won’t have any sympathy for you when your cult takes away your social security the second they have power.