McD has developed Josh Allen into an elite QB. What about all our failed QBs

[ExiledInIllinois]

2 minutes ago, elroy16 said:

 

 

The work he's done to improve his mechanics has been pretty amazing to watch. Last year he was better, but it didn't quite seem like the muscle memory was totally there yet and he'd get a little bit sloppy when things weren't perfect. This year, even in dirty pockets and with guys in his face, he's got much better mechanics. Even if it doesn't look like they're great, he's keeping his left arm closer to keep his body from flying open and he's keeping his shoulders square to the throw. 

 

Awesome pic by the way.

Exactly!  Why I grabbed that pic.  Look at his shoulders.   Body.  After he threw that ball! I really can't explain it, but it sticks out.  Glaring. 

 

Not an expert... But I ski.  That's exactly how you wanna point your body down the fall line how he made that play. Agreesive, balanced, attacking and of course anticipating 3 steps ahead.  

 

The game is really slowing down for him!  

[Mango]

I think Edward’s and EJ could have MAYBE developed into something better under a different HC/OC. The rest, nah. 

Flutie- Came into the league at the wrong era. He could play now

Bledsoe- Didn’t need to develop. Needed to not be old. Turned out to be a HoF’er

JP- What a dumb dumb 

Orton- Was retired before he got here

Fitz- is what he is. A top tier back up to low level starter. Great team leader. Physiology is his only limitations. 
 

[dorquemada]

24 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

It was a terrible decision and he got lucky that the ball wasn't tipped or intercepted.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Kidding.

 

 

\collinsworth

[White Linen]

Beane picking the right guy?

[Figster]

8 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

Exactly!  Why I grabbed that pic.  Look at his shoulders.   Body.  After he threw that ball! I really can't explain it, but it sticks out.  Glaring. 

 

Not an expert... But I ski.  That's exactly how you wanna point your body down the fall line how he made that play. Agreesive, balanced, attacking and of course anticipating 3 steps ahead.  

 

The game is really slowing down for him!  

It was almost like Josh was standing there sometmes with a controller playing a video game.

 

Absolutely amazing...

 

I can understand how the football world may have been mesmerized by his play. 

Edited December 10, 2020 by Figster

[BillsToast]

I thought our only mistake wasn't in drafting more QBs in rounds 2 or 3 during those years. Maybe 2-3 of them. I really wanted Derek Carr in round 2 in 2014 and some losers that didn't pan out. The problem is we didn't try. Edwards and Losman was it. I always throught Losman was trash but had hopes for Edwards. 

 

The fact we didn't try even in rounds 4 or 5 is also stunning to me. 

[ndirish1978]

Gibran Hamdan, that's all I have to say.

Edited December 10, 2020 by ndirish1978

[Whkfc]

i think Chan Gailey maybe could have done something with ALLEN. I wanted the Bills very badly to draft Drew Brees his draft year and i understand they would have drafted him if he got to them in the second round.

[Kelly the Dog]

I think good coaching could have developed JP Losman, EJ Manuel, and maybe even Trentative into 90% of a Don Strock. 

[billsfan89]

In the end this mess of QB's since Flutie (who wasn't that great of a QB just competent enough to make a few big plays and get carried by an elite defense) and really since Kelly has been one of the largest obstacles during the drought years. The Bills took nearly every single approach besides taking a QB in the top 10. They took mid to late 1st round picks (Losman and Manuel), traded for a proven veteran (Bledsoe), tried a lower draft pick (Trent Edwards), tried a couple of veteran reclamation projects (Fitz and Orton) and tried to go with a long term backup from a winning organization (Tyrod.)

 

Ironically Tyrod proved to be Flutie like as he was able to manage games, make a few plays with his legs and make a big play here or there just enough to be carried by a good defense to a decent record. But the rest had short term success at best and none were the solution. McD realized this pattern and while he passed on dipping into the QB draft class in 2017 he saw that 2018 was the more heralded class and set himself up to be a player in that draft class. They pocketed KC's first round pick in 2018 in the trade down, they traded Sammy and Darby for 2nd and 3rd round picks in 2018 and then traded Tyrod for pick 65 in that draft along with moving Cordy Glenn and pick 21 for pick 12. 

 

McD did what the Bills had never done and they finally took a QB up high, going from pick 12 to 7 to take Josh at a very high cost (picks 53 and 56) and the gamble has appeared to payoff. Just one of many reasons why the McD rebuild and the Pegula ownership have worked and resulted in 3 winning seasons, 2 playoff appearances and hopefully a third playoff appearance and division title.

[RochesterLifer]

1 hour ago, billieve420 said:

I think a lot of the credit for Allen's development should go to himself.

 

I believe McDermott would also say this. That being said, everybody involved, McDermott, Dabol, Beane, Dorsey and Palmer have a right to feel good about their contributions to Josh's development.

[Victory Formation]

5 hours ago, Buffalo Timmy said:

The only one of those QBs who had a chance of being a good pro, not Josh good, was EJ and he was hurt greatly by Marrone. The rest of them were packing and could only become career backups or middling at best. 

I’d argue that Drew Bledsoe is the best name on the list... Could’ve got 4-5 years out of him perhaps if he was under Daboll and staff.. Obviously nowhere near as talented as Josh but he was a pretty good QB through most of his career.. Tailed off while in Buffalo, probably because this organization at the time was a black hole.

[Rochesterfan]

21 hours ago, ProcessAccepted said:

After watching #17 wipe the floor with the 49ers on MNF I'm amazed how the Bills developed Josh into a top tier QB. Obviously Josh had the talent but the organization needed to maximize his abilities. Especially when you consider the way Darnold has imploded under Gase.  We were fortunate to draft Allen but Allen was also fortunate that this Bills organization drafted him.

 

Looking at all the coaches that we've had since Marv and all the QBs we've had, are there any QBs with whom McD would have had sustained success? Is there another coach on the list that could have gotten the best out of Allen. I'm curious what you all think.

 

 

It is so difficult to know or understand the exact sequence that created this combination.  
 

1st you need a HC that is willing to learn and adjust to his team.  McD came in and was immediately branded as a conservative, defensive minded HC - which is 100% true because of the team at the time.  He recognized that was not the team that would win and has been willing to adjust each year until he is now one of the most aggressive coaches in the league.

 

2nd you need a QB that is willing to listen and learn and have the desire to get better each year.  The coaching staff has given Josh instructions each off season on things that need to get better and Josh has taken them to heart.  It is obvious that he has not only worked on mechanical issues and foot work, but he must study a ton on film in the off-season to ensure he is spot on.  
 

3rd you need consistency and talent to continue to grow and the Bills have done that around Josh.  The talent has gotten better and that has helped with the growth.

 

Therefore; I do not think that any of the other combinations would work out as well.  The other coaches did not bring a change mentality to the job.  The only coaches on this list that might have seen some success was Wade Phillips (he knew what he was, but he allowed his coaches to coach) and Chan Gailey.  I don’t think either had the mindset to get the most out of Josh, but they could have gotten something.

 

Going the other way and thinking if you replaced Josh with any of the other QBs under McD - I don’t think you get a lot of success either.  None of them had the physical talent of Josh (obviously), but I don’t think any of them had the mindset of Josh either. He has been teachable (once he and Daboll figured out how to co-exist) and he is a sponge.  I give a lot of credit to Daboll also because it is obvious he can be a tough love teacher, but it worked.  I can’t imagine EJ or JP having Daboll in their face for interceptions and take that and grow - just as I can’t imagine Tyrod with Daboll in his face because he refused to make a throw. 
 

Most importantly- I am not sure that any other QB has the talent to allow McD to feel comfortable becoming more aggressive- I can’t see an offense led by Trent Edwards being your leading offense or even the strength of the team - therefore I think Beane and McD are less apt to build a powerful offense and McD looks conservative throughout his career.

 

I think Josh’s talent has allowed McD to grow and McD’s growth has allowed Josh to flourish.  The right combo at the right time.

 

Much like in the 90’s when Marv and Ted allowed Jim Kelly to drive the offense in the no huddle - not every coach or OC could handle that.  

 

 

Edited December 10, 2020 by Rochesterfan

[Albany,n.y.]

I've always thought of it from another point of view.  For the most part, the Bills, under the old management, did the same thing over & over again-they tried to get a QB on the cheap, at times in dollars and at times with draft capital.

 

Let's look at the team history through the years of getting the QB cheap.  Basically I believe you do anything you can to get your guy high in the draft, and that's near or at the top of the 1st round.

 

The 1st franchise QB was Jack Kemp-acquired on waivers.  This may have set the mindset that you don't have to invest high draft picks to get a QB.  His backup & would be successor would have been Lamonica, a late round pick (24th round), if Lamonica hadn't been traded away.  The fact that Lamonica was obtained on the cheap further cemented the mindset.  

 

Next QB up was Dennis Shaw, who for 1 year they thought they could get a franchise QB with a 2nd round pick.  That dream was short lived.

 

Then in 1973 they got their long term answer in Joe Ferguson.  Fergy was a middle of the pack QB who was a long term answer & a WOFre, but never the franchise.

 

Fast forward to 1983.  The Bills draft Tony Hunter before Jim Kelly.  Then instead of doing everything to sign him, they cheap out again & he signs with the USFL.  Due to this the Bills missed 3 seasons with Kelly at QB.  

 

After QB hell for 3 seasons, Kelly finally signs after the USFL bites the dust and the glory days, not seen since the 1960s return.

 

Now in preparation for the end of Jim Kelly's career, in 1995 they draft QB of the future Todd Collins in the 2nd round.

 

After Collins fails they panic and trade for Rob Johnson with pick #9 + a later round pick after previously signing Doug Flutie on the cheap from the CFL.   This move generally doesn't work-trading for a mid/low round pick by another team who showed a little but couldn't supplant the original team's starter.  For me, who lived in the NYC metro area on & off, it was deja vu in reverse.  I had seen Matt Robinson go from the Jets to Denver in 1980 for a 1st rounder plus.  Ironically, I was back in WNY the same time Robinson landed on the Bills.  

 

Then the trade for a fading Drew Bledsoe for the next year's #1.  We got 3 years of pretty mediocre play for that one.  

 

Next up, the draft that could have made the Bills a contender, but once again, not willing to pay the price necessary to get their guy.  In 2004 the Bills loved Ben Roethlisberger, they tried to trade up to get him.  However, and this is strictly my opinion-they didn't have the guts to offer enough to get a team ahead of them to pull the trigger on a trade.  If you feel that strongly about a QB you do whatever is necessary to get him.  Tom Donahoe failed & then to compound the problem, traded up for JP later in the 1st round after missing Ben by 2 picks.  I believe if they had offered a team at 9 or 10 pick 13 plus the same pick they traded to Dallas, their 2005 1st rounder, they could have gotten the job done, but I think Donahoe choked and maybe he was too afraid of getting roasted because the point total would have looked to have favored the other team.  He broke the golden rule of drafting a QB-you do anything to get your guy & you shouldn't care if people think you gave up too much.  

 

Then in 2007 they went cheapo again trying to turn a 3rd rounder into the franchise.  Obviously Trent Edwards ended up on the scrap heap, another Bills QB drafted & never getting to a 2nd contract.

 

Next up the Ryan Fitzpatrick era, trying to make a former 7th round pick who was available as an unrestricted free agent into a franchise QB.  Now Fitz has had a long career, totally outplaying his draft status, but the only way he'll ever win a Super Bowl is by backing up a franchise QB.  Everybody loves Fitz, but they're always trying to upgrade when he's your starter.

 

Then after deciding to move on from Fitzpatrick, the Bills tried something unheard of in a quest for a franchise QB.  They trade DOWN to select their QB of the future because they know nobody wants to draft him that high.  What GM does that?  If he's your guy then you draft him ASAP, because you have faith in him and fear someone else will draft him ahead of you.  If you know the guy is so poorly though of around the league, then maybe it's time to reexamine your opinion.  EJ was so bad that Marrone brought Orton out of retirement so that he wouldn't sink with EJ. As soon as Orton announced he was one & done, Marrone, fearing that he'd be left with only EJ, bailed.  

 

Next up, another cheap QB, a former 6th round pick & a backup in his 4 years with the Ravens.  The funny thing is that when I heard about the signing, I was pretty confident that he could beat out EJ & Cassell, but once again there was no effort to get a legitimate franchise guy.  At least the good news was the Bills didn't draft a QB.  2015 was a draft disaster producing 2 busts with the 1st 2 picks & no current NFL starters.  Tyrod was JAG for his 3 years here.  

 

In 2017 the Bills had a dilemma.  It was pretty well decided before the draft that they were going to fire Doug Whaley & his top scouts.  So, do they draft a QB before the next GM, or wait a year.  At the time they were on the board, Mahomes & Watson were both available, but the team decided to wait.  Ironically a recent story has come out saying the Bills thought they could draft Mahomes with the later 1st they got from KC.  It makes you wonder who they thought KC was trading up for.  Still shades of going on the cheap, trying to do the same thing they did when they drafted EJ.  I guess some of the old mindset set in with the Pegulas as well.  

 

Finally 2018 comes along and the Bills build up the draft capital needed to trade up. Unfortunately, they look hopelessly buried at picks 21 & 22.  Unless they wanted a guy like Lamar Jackson, who reminded them too much of Tyrod Taylor, they would have to really do some trading to get their guy.  Through skill & luck they managed to get their #1 rated QB.  Before Beane, I don't know how many prior Bills GMs would have done enough to get Allen, but I think most of them wouldn't have been able to pull it off.  Buddy Nix would  have ended up with Rosen or Rudolph & we'd be battling the Jets for the #1 pick right now.  

 

 

 

 

[mjt328]

Personally, I think coaching is only a small piece of a QBs development.  

 

From what I've seen of Josh Allen over the last 3 years, I think he would have developed into a pretty good NFL QB regardless of what team he went to.  The physical talent and the mental drive would be present in him, even if you put him in the worst situation in the league.  Maybe he wouldn't be an MVP-candidate on a team like the Jets.  But I also don't believe Allen would be struggling like Sam Darnold has been.  He would still be flashing as a solid NFL starter.  The fact that Buffalo has surrounded him with a very good team and excellent weapons  only pushes him to the next level.

 

Guys like JP Losman, Trent Edwards and EJ Manuel simply didn't have what it took.  If they did, we would have at least shown SOME real promise (outside of maybe a handful of games).  It wasn't about poor development.  All of them went to other teams after the Bills, and didn't find success there either.  Looking at the vets on your list... I would say that Drew Bledsoe probably would have won more games here, if we gave him better surrounding pieces like a decent O-Line and tight end.  We could have probably made the playoffs as a wild card with Ryan Fitzpatrick with a better defense supporting him.  Tyrod Taylor was average/below average, and probably maxed out here.  He had a lot of good players surrounding him.

 

If you want to look at someone who took a significant leap by moving to a different situation, I think Ryan Tannehill is probably the best example.  But even in his case, he actually showed lots of promise/potential during his years in Miami.  We are talking about a guy who had a few 4000+ yard seasons, usually had over 20 touchdowns and 60-65% completion percentage.  He really hasn't become a superior player in Tennessee.  He just has a better supporting cast that lets him be a game manager.

 

[Orlando Buffalo]

1 hour ago, BUFFALOBART said:

EJ turned chicken$¢h¡tt under center, after he was injured. He never recovered. My impression, was he was that always happy to get off of the field.

I was happy that we moved on..

Your points are all valid but I think our coaching staff did him a huge disservice. Literally his best back to back games were his first two. That tells me they weakened his strengths without improving his good points.

[Rochesterfan]

1 hour ago, Buffalo Timmy said:

Your points are all valid but I think our coaching staff did him a huge disservice. Literally his best back to back games were his first two. That tells me they weakened his strengths without improving his good points.

 

That may be true or no one had film and once they got film - he never improved to become better.

 

My guess is it is someplace in between - his best games where before anyone knew what to expect and the staff did not help him improve from there.