Limited tailgating vote tonight

[NoSaint]

18 minutes ago, LB3 said:

I count 14-15 in masks. Some aren't clear on my phone.

2 have masks on but their noses out.

9 without masks on.

 

I wouldn't count that as "most" wear masks. I also don't see social distancing.

define “most” for us here 

[DrDawkinstein]

4 minutes ago, Gordio said:

 

 

Hmm, okay then why can't fans be allowed in an outdoor stadium?

 

An idea I'm not completely against. Especially if we're talking outdoor stadium in a state that seems to have the virus under control, and a mask mandate (subject to fines) is in place.

 

Then it just comes down to whether the Bills, the NFL, and the State of New York want to open themselves up to litigation for when someone DOES spread the virus at one of these events.

 

That all said, I think it is silly that us adults are spending this much time and energy trying to get FOOTBALL back, of all things. How about we focus on what it will take to get offices back open, and schools safely opened?

 

I'm as much a football addict as anywhere here, but it is low on my list of priorities right now. And I happily value the health and well being of strangers over my ability to go to a game. Forcing my way back to a game or even a tailgate isnt the hill I choose to die on.

31 minutes ago, LB3 said:

Don't believe your eyes.

 

20 minutes ago, LB3 said:

I count 14-15 in masks. Some aren't clear on my phone.

2 have masks on but their noses out.

9 without masks on.

 

I wouldn't count that as "most" wear masks. I also don't see social distancing.

 

My man... between the doctored photo and this assessment of basic numbers, I think it might be a good time for you to take a break from this topic.

[NoSaint]

7 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

An idea I'm not completely against. Especially if we're talking outdoor stadium in a state that seems to have the virus under control, and a mask mandate (subject to fines) is in place.

 

Then it just comes down to whether the Bills, the NFL, and the State of New York want to open themselves up to litigation for when someone DOES spread the virus at one of these events.

 

That all said, I think it is silly that us adults are spending this much time and energy trying to get FOOTBALL back, of all things. How about we focus on what it will take to get offices back open, and schools safely opened?

 

I'm as much a football addict as anywhere here, but it is low on my list of priorities right now. And I happily value the health and well being of strangers over my ability to go to a game. Forcing my way back to a game or even a tailgate isnt the hill I choose to die on.

and I think you nailed it with prioritization of entertainment over so many other things. 
 

I’ll again stress I’m no doctor or qualified to make the decision. My commentary is simply watching the issue play out over and over and needing to either learn a lesson in how we move forward, or how we react after we move forward. 
 

A couple weeks of tailgating followed by immediate shut downs seems like both the most likely, and worst course of action, right? 
 

until we can figure out good measures and good responses- I agree I’m not sure this is the time to die on the hill of drinking beer and bbq’ing in a parking lot even if it’s fun.

Edited August 19, 2020 by NoSaint

[LB3]

3 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

An idea I'm not completely against. Especially if we're talking outdoor stadium in a state that seems to have the virus under control, and a mask mandate (subject to fines) is in place.

 

Then it just comes down to whether the Bills, the NFL, and the State of New York want to open themselves up to litigation for when someone DOES spread the virus at one of these events.

 

That all said, I think it is silly that us adults are spending this much time and energy trying to get FOOTBALL back, of all things. How about we focus on what it will take to get offices back open, and schools safely opened?

 

I'm as much a football addict as anywhere here, but it is low on my list of priorities right now. And I happily value the health and well being of strangers over my ability to go to a game. Forcing my way back to a game or even a tailgate isnt the hill I choose to die on.

 

 

My man... between the doctored photo and this assessment of basic numbers, I think it might be a good time for you to take a break from this topic.

What's doctored about it? I took the first photo I saw on Google. Jauronimo provided a full photo. Unless it was even more photoshopped.

 

Yes. 60-65% is most, but is ridiculous when used to back up the silly belief that protests and riots weren't super spreaders. Believing that requires the suspension of all logic. 

 

[Jauronimo]

13 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

I never said all. It didnt even occur to me that anyone would challenge that so many protestors were not wearing masks, so I didnt think precise language was needed. Frankly, the claim buggers belief. 
 

Was it tens of thousands? Obviously. Was it “most” or “half?” Well, now that we are splitting hairs over inconsequential details, I have to acknowledge I have no way of knowing the percentage. Thus, I backed away from those claims. Again, the exact percentage is inconsequential when its so obvious that a substantial number of people werent wearing masks.

The details are not inconsequential when your entire point was "thinking that a majority of protesters wearing masks flies in the face of reality" which was only a few minutes ago.  Its not splitting hairs when the benchmark of majority is the crux of your point. 

 

Now you have a new point that the numbers were "substantial" but the exact percentages do not matter and we are all supposed to take your word for it because once again, its an obvious truth.  Do you see the issue?

[DrDawkinstein]

Just now, LB3 said:

What's doctored about it? I took the first photo I saw on Google. Jauronimo provided a full photo. Unless it was even more photoshopped.

 

Yes. 60-65% is most, but is ridiculous when used to back up the silly belief that protests and riots weren't super spreaders. Believing that requires the suspension of all logic. 

 

 

Take that up with the National Bureau of Economic Research, and all the County Boards of Health listed in those articles I posted, which have done the research and have found no conclusive evidence that the protests caused any spikes, let alone were "super spreaders".

 

That photo (or any single photo either way) does not accurately represent the totality of the protests. It wasnt me that tried using it to prove a point. And it didnt prove your point either.

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

4 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

The details are not inconsequential when your entire point was "thinking that a majority of protesters wearing masks flies in the face of reality" which was only a few minutes ago.  Its not splitting hairs when the benchmark of majority is the crux of your point. 

 

Now you have a new point that the numbers were "substantial" but the exact percentages do not matter and we are all supposed to take your word for it because once again, its an obvious truth.  Do you see the issue?

You cant possibly think the difference between a few percentage points regarding the number of people at the protests honestly makes a difference. My “point” was never that the majority qualified as a tipping point. My point was that so many people didn’t wear masks you cannot credibly claim that masks were the sole reason that virus did not spread due to the protests.

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

8 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Take that up with the National Bureau of Economic Research, and all the County Boards of Health listed in those articles I posted, which have done the research and have found no conclusive evidence that the protests caused any spikes, let alone were "super spreaders".

 

That photo (or any single photo either way) does not accurately represent the totality of the protests. It wasnt me that tried using it to prove a point. And it didnt prove your point either.

But why call it a “doctored photo?”

[WEATHER DOT COM]

Of course some people at the protests got Covid 19 but there is not any data that shows areas where protests occurred had consistent spikes in Covid 19 cases.

 

Back to tailgating!

 

This dude looks ready for action

 

[DrDawkinstein]

Just now, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

But why call it a “doctored photo?”

 

Cropping a photo to focus only on a couple people who prove your point is doctoring it.

 

Not saying LB3 doctored it, but I'd be interested in the exact wording of the google search that turned it up (if we were going to continue this discussion, which we arent, or at least I'm not, considering LB3 has had a rough go of it, and youre doing your usual constant-reframing-the-argument thing).

 

To go back to your original reply to @Richard Noggin, you shouldve just said "so many people didn’t wear masks you cannot credibly claim that masks were the sole reason that virus did not spread due to the protests. " To which any of us couldve said, "of course not. masks, outdoors, and distancing are the 3 big components". As I had mentioned 2 posts above the one you decided to quote. And saved us 2 pages of watching you dance around points.

[Jauronimo]

3 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

You cant possibly think the difference between a few percentage points regarding the number of people at the protests honestly makes a difference. My “point” was never that the majority qualified as a tipping point. My point was that so many people didn’t wear masks you cannot credibly claim that masks were the sole reason that virus did not spread due to the protests.

A few percentage points?  How few are we talking now?  Whats the spread +/-  over your initial benchmark of 50% which you admit was pulled from your ass? 

 

To clarify, your new point is that because protests were not linked to mass spreading (which has been commonly attributed to high rates of mask wearing oddly enough), and so many people (% now inconsequential) were NOT wearing masks (oops), that masks clearly were not the sole reason COVID didn't spread (did anyone argue masks were the sole reason COVID didn't spread)?

 

 

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

2 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Cropping a photo to focus only on a couple people who prove your point is doctoring it.

 

Not saying LB3 doctored it, but I'd be interested in the exact wording of the google search that turned it up (if we were going to continue this discussion, which we arent, or at least I'm not, considering LB3 has had a rough go of it, and youre doing your usual constant-reframing-the-argument thing).

 

To go back to your original reply to @Richard Noggin, you shouldve just said "so many people didn’t wear masks you cannot credibly claim that masks were the sole reason that virus did not spread due to the protests. " To which any of us couldve said, "of course not. masks, outdoors, and distancing are the 3 big components". As I had mentioned 2 posts above the one you decided to quote. And saved us 2 pages of watching you dance around points.

On a forum for dumb arguments, this is the dumbest argument Ive ever had. What a sily topic to split hairs about.

[Richard Noggin]

1 hour ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

Got a credible citation that its not true?

That's not how thinking works.

[DrDawkinstein]

Just now, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

On a forum for dumb arguments, this is the dumbest argument Ive ever had. What a sily topic to split hairs about.

 

The irony coming from you after the last few pages.

[WEATHER DOT COM]

Might let the grass grow for another 3 weeks and try to carve out a standing Bison with the weed whacker. 

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

7 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

The irony coming from you after the last few pages.

I LOVE that you just used the word “irony” to try to insult me, but then proceeded to misuse the term. LOVE it. So appropriate to conclude this argument that way.

Edited August 19, 2020 by JoshAllenHasBigHands

[SectionC3]

1 hour ago, LB3 said:

Don't believe your eyes.

What does this have to do with the issue whether tailgating should be permitted in 2020 in my community?

[Just Jack]

2 hours ago, wAcKy ZeBrA said:

Of course some people at the protests got Covid 19 but there is not any data that shows areas where protests occurred had consistent spikes in Covid 19 cases.

 

What I have heard (do not have personal knowledge of) is that when doing contact tracing, they were not allowed to ask if people had attended a protest recently. 

[formerlyofCtown]

5 hours ago, wAcKy ZeBrA said:

Of course some people at the protests got Covid 19 but there is not any data that shows areas where protests occurred had consistent spikes in Covid 19 cases.

 

Back to tailgating!

 

This dude looks ready for action

 

Another doctored photo.  That man originally had a petrified look as he knows he is going to be forced to attend games and tailgate against his will.

[NoSaint]

2 hours ago, Just Jack said:

 

What I have heard (do not have personal knowledge of) is that when doing contact tracing, they were not allowed to ask if people had attended a protest recently. 

Important distinction from his post being that he was talking about spikes in locations tying to dates/locations of protests. Anecdotally it makes sense you would see the data bear that out pretty clearly if these were super spreader events. 

[RiotAct]

https://www.wivb.com/news/local-news/erie-county/orchard-park/orchard-park-town-board-to-vote-on-scheduling-public-hearing-on-tailgating-issue/

 

ORCHARD PARK, N.Y. (WIVB)–UPDATE: Per the Orchard Park Town Board, there will be no tailgating allowed this Bills season, including in private lots.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Shocker ?

Edited August 20, 2020 by RiotAct
... “as long as there are no fans allowed inside the stadium”

[Augie]

1 minute ago, RiotAct said:

https://www.wivb.com/news/local-news/erie-county/orchard-park/orchard-park-town-board-to-vote-on-scheduling-public-hearing-on-tailgating-issue/

 

ORCHARD PARK, N.Y. (WIVB)–UPDATE: Per the Orchard Park Town Board, there will be no tailgating allowed this Bills season, including in private lots.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Shocker ?

 

Some people need to be protected from themselves. I love the games, and I LOVE the tailgates, but I would not attend until some things change. There is no hurry for me and I hope to attend often when things are looking better. 

[zonabb]

31 minutes ago, RiotAct said:

https://www.wivb.com/news/local-news/erie-county/orchard-park/orchard-park-town-board-to-vote-on-scheduling-public-hearing-on-tailgating-issue/

 

ORCHARD PARK, N.Y. (WIVB)–UPDATE: Per the Orchard Park Town Board, there will be no tailgating allowed this Bills season, including in private lots.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Shocker ?

My money is on the Pegulas and NFL intervening to add private lots to this because they won't get a cut. Guaranteed. And if I were the private lot owners, I would immediately file suit challenging the right of the Town to tell private land owners that they can't do this due to a pandemic when social distancing regulations allow people to visit parks and recreational amenities, bars and restaurants, etc. Seems like an arbitrary and capricious local law unfairly impacting select business (let's be clear, these are businesses).  

 

Again, this has the Pegula and NFL's fingerprints all over it. They can't have their cake in county owned lots due to their fear of liability, so they've most certainly stepped in so that others can't as well.

 

So... who's throwing the first major off site tailgate in WNY and where????

[Augie]

23 minutes ago, zonabb said:

My money is on the Pegulas and NFL intervening to add private lots to this because they won't get a cut. Guaranteed. And if I were the private lot owners, I would immediately file suit challenging the right of the Town to tell private land owners that they can't do this due to a pandemic when social distancing regulations allow people to visit parks and recreational amenities, bars and restaurants, etc. Seems like an arbitrary and capricious local law unfairly impacting select business (let's be clear, these are businesses).  

 

Again, this has the Pegula and NFL's fingerprints all over it. They can't have their cake in county owned lots due to their fear of liability, so they've most certainly stepped in so that others can't as well.

 

So... who's throwing the first major off site tailgate in WNY and where????

 

They are ABSOLUTELY businesses. No doubt about that whatsoever.

 

 However, it takes no money out of the Pegulas pockets, and it is such ridiculously small potatoes that I doubt it’s even crossed their minds. It’s money they will never get. They may even hope the Bills fan community could collect to help them in some way. It’s not an us vs them kind of thing in my mind. It’s an us AND them thing.

 

If it costs them nothing, why would they resent it? I’d like to think they would just support the smart move protecting our fans and community.  If they can legally tell privately owned bars to close, I’m betting they can shut this down too with no problems. Don’t get me wrong, I do HATE it, but it’s probably the smart thing to do. 

 

 

.

Edited August 20, 2020 by Augie

[thurst44]

12 hours ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

Seems to me that if this werent true, you would have seen a massive resurgence after the BLM rallies. But we didn’t. 

They weren't drunk, they wore masks, and they social distanced (or at least many of them tried to). 

Edited August 20, 2020 by thurst44

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

7 minutes ago, thurst44 said:

They weren't drunk, they wore masks, and they social distanced (or at least many of them tried to). 

Yeah? All of them?

[thurst44]

8 hours ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

Got a credible citation that its not true?

That's not how that works. You can't prove a negative. 

 

But, in any case, a perfuctory google search shows many, many, many articles from independent sources have roughly the same line "most/everyone there are wearing masks"

 

https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ALeKk03FyXEYFg4TXBW12o-WP_22Ja94cg%3A1597887786860&source=hp&ei=KtU9X-jDMZWqytMP7-W86A8&q=what+was+the+percentage+of+mask+wearing+at+blm+rallies&oq=what+was+the+percentage+of+mask+wearing+at+blm+rallies

 

I'm pent up and missing football also and could use letting loose and cheering on the Bills, but this virus is brutal and very infectious -- I've already lost multiple friends and it sucks. I get the argument for individual rights, but when there are consequences that could lead to a cruel death... well, we owe it all to each other to make sacrifices. 

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

1 minute ago, thurst44 said:

That's not how that works. You can't prove a negative. 

 

But, in any case, a perfuctory google search shows many, many, many articles from independent sources have roughly the same line "most/everyone there are wearing masks"

 

https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ALeKk03FyXEYFg4TXBW12o-WP_22Ja94cg%3A1597887786860&source=hp&ei=KtU9X-

2 minutes ago, thurst44 said:

That's not how that works. You can't prove a negative. 

 

But, in any case, a perfuctory google search shows many, many, many articles from independent sources have roughly the same line "most/everyone there are wearing masks"

 

https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ALeKk03FyXEYFg4TXBW12o-WP_22Ja94cg%3A1597887786860&source=hp&ei=KtU9X-jDMZWqytMP7-W86A8&q=what+was+the+percentage+of+mask+wearing+at+blm+rallies&oq=what+was+the+percentage+of+mask+wearing+at+blm+rallies

 

I'm pent up and missing football also and could use letting loose and cheering on the Bills, but this virus is brutal and very infectious -- I've already lost multiple friends and it sucks. I get the argument for individual rights, but when there are consequences that could lead to a cruel death... well, we owe it all to each other to make sacrifices. 

-W86A8&q=what+was+the+percentage+of+mask+wearing+at+blm+rallies&oq=what+was+the+percentage+of+mask+wearing+at+blm+rallies

 

I'm pent up and missing football also and could use letting loose and cheering on the Bills, but this virus is brutal and very infectious -- I've already lost multiple friends and it sucks. I get the argument for individual rights, but when there are consequences that could lead to a cruel death... well, we owe it all to each other to make sacrifices. 

You should read the articles...the virus didnt spread because it doesnt spread outside, not because of mask wearing. Most people agree a substantial percentage of protestors didnt wear masks, though, as you can see from prior pages of the thread, you must be especially precise when discussing what percentage of protestors didnt wear masks.
 

 

[thurst44]

3 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

Yeah? All of them?

More of them than at certain other protests and/or rallies where they were aggressively not wearing them and in people died. One person wears a mask, it reduces another person's transmission roughly 70% and their chances are down 30%; both and it's almost 100%. It's a group that tends to have more people who believe masks work and let's leave it at that, Mr. Big Hands.

 

This thread is about to be closed down soon, isn't it? 

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

4 minutes ago, thurst44 said:

More of them than at certain other protests and/or rallies where they were aggressively not wearing them and in people died. One person wears a mask, it reduces another person's transmission roughly 70% and their chances are down 30%; both and it's almost 100%. It's a group that tends to have more people who believe masks work and let's leave it at that, Mr. Big Hands.

 

This thread is about to be closed down soon, isn't it? 

I replied, but there is no need to keep this up, so I deleted it.

[thurst44]

1 minute ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

You should read the articles...the virus didnt spread because it doesnt spread outside, not because of mask wearing. Most people agree a substantial percentage of protestors didnt wear masks, though, as you can see from prior pages of the thread, you must be especially precise when discussing what percentage of protestors didnt wear masks.
 

 

I read articles. Your assertation that it doesn't spread outside is ridiculous and contradicts most of the science (which is admittedly still not completely known to begin with which makes your definitive stance all the more ludicrous. The virus spreads less outdoors than it does outside, but it still spreads, and it's more likely to spread when people are closer together and talking loudly. What does that last part sound like? There are multiple cases of outbreaks at large outdoor parties. 

1 minute ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

I replied, but there is no need to keep this up, so I deleted it.

OK, there's something we agree on.

[SectionC3]

51 minutes ago, zonabb said:

My money is on the Pegulas and NFL intervening to add private lots to this because they won't get a cut. Guaranteed. And if I were the private lot owners, I would immediately file suit challenging the right of the Town to tell private land owners that they can't do this due to a pandemic when social distancing regulations allow people to visit parks and recreational amenities, bars and restaurants, etc. Seems like an arbitrary and capricious local law unfairly impacting select business (let's be clear, these are businesses).  

 

Again, this has the Pegula and NFL's fingerprints all over it. They can't have their cake in county owned lots due to their fear of liability, so they've most certainly stepped in so that others can't as well.

 

So... who's throwing the first major off site tailgate in WNY and where????

 

A semi-educated guess on what happened:  the young buck councilman got out over his skis supporting tailgating, Polo got wind of what was going to happen through the Channel 2 report, and ECDOH stepped in and put the kibosh on the whole deal.  I highly doubt the Pegulas had anything to do with it. 

[Just Jack]

55 minutes ago, zonabb said:

And if I were the private lot owners, I would immediately file suit challenging the right of the Town to tell private land owners that they can't do this due to a pandemic when social distancing regulations allow people to visit parks and recreational amenities, bars and restaurants, etc. Seems like an arbitrary and capricious local law unfairly impacting select business (let's be clear, these are businesses).  

 

Private lots still had to get permits from the town to allow parking. So they may not do anything, since that could cause the town/county to deny them any permit in the future. 

[BarleyNY]

11 hours ago, SCBills said:

I think the protests were a worthy cause and in no way am I criticizing them, but people are very disingenuous about explaining them away in regards to COVID.... Atlanta literally had a massive Travis Scott concert labeled as a “protest”.   A lot of people only seeing what they want to see when invoking the protests (and that’s true for both sides of the aisle)

 

 

Agreed on all counts.  I’m not a fan of the “concert protests” from any side.  Pretty crappy thing to take part in IMO. 

Edited August 20, 2020 by BarleyNY

[Punching Bag]

11 hours ago, Mike in Horseheads said:

Burning the tables will kill the germs.

 

Don't tweet about this; someone may retweet it like they did injection of disinfection.

[Mike in Horseheads]

8 hours ago, Limeaid said:

 

Don't tweet about this; someone may retweet it like they did injection of disinfection.

Good point sorry!