Uyghur Genocide in China

[DrW]

4 hours ago, Cinga said:

 

That's not true.... The world including the Obama Administration were silent during genocide in Darfur and Rwanda. The world including the Clinton Administration was silent during the Bosnian genocide.

 

Rwanda was in 1994. Darfur started in 2003, and the UN sent peacekeeping troops in 2007.

Edited July 19, 2020 by DrW

[TtownBillsFan]

1 hour ago, DrW said:

 

Rwanda was in 1994. Darfur started in 2003, and the UN sent peacekeeping troops in 2007.

Quoting you, so that a prior quote I started didn't end up here.

 

I have an honest question, which is where something like this will end up, if we want to end it;  how advanced are our weapons, versus those of the Chinese (in particular), and those of the rest of the nations that might not want us to end this genocide BS?  Do we have the arms that are so advanced that we could kill any 'conventional' nuclear attempts against us?  I'm guessing we likely are at that point (I sure the heck hope we are!)  I'm hoping we're several generations beyond conventional 'missiles', and would have the ability to knock any of that crap out of the air, from space.  I think we're likely there, and the whole ICBM fear is a thing of the past.  Am I hoping for something that likely exists, or am I hoping for something not there, yet?  Given the way we can be found, on earth, by our own cell-phones, something tells me we have the ability to knock crap out of the air, on a dime, if needed.

 

To add, I think we likely have stuff so far beyond ICBM nuclear missile stuff, even worrying about what we/China/USSR had back then is funny.  I'm hoping all the 'black-budget' stuff we have going one puts us so far beyond missiles, that's it's not even worth worrying about.  And, as such, I hope we just put a big-ass lock-down on these countries like China, killing their people.  I'm hoping Trump comes out with the BIG D, and says, no more of that BS, straight-up!  He's trying to, economically.  We might just have to swing the big D, and do it militarily, but I'm asking if we have enough to do that, since we rubes are not in the know.

[Azalin]

1 hour ago, TtownBillsFan said:

Quoting you, so that a prior quote I started didn't end up here.

 

I have an honest question, which is where something like this will end up, if we want to end it;  how advanced are our weapons, versus those of the Chinese (in particular), and those of the rest of the nations that might not want us to end this genocide BS?  Do we have the arms that are so advanced that we could kill any 'conventional' nuclear attempts against us?  I'm guessing we likely are at that point (I sure the heck hope we are!)  I'm hoping we're several generations beyond conventional 'missiles', and would have the ability to knock any of that crap out of the air, from space.  I think we're likely there, and the whole ICBM fear is a thing of the past.  Am I hoping for something that likely exists, or am I hoping for something not there, yet?  Given the way we can be found, on earth, by our own cell-phones, something tells me we have the ability to knock crap out of the air, on a dime, if needed.

 

To add, I think we likely have stuff so far beyond ICBM nuclear missile stuff, even worrying about what we/China/USSR had back then is funny.  I'm hoping all the 'black-budget' stuff we have going one puts us so far beyond missiles, that's it's not even worth worrying about.  And, as such, I hope we just put a big-ass lock-down on these countries like China, killing their people.  I'm hoping Trump comes out with the BIG D, and says, no more of that BS, straight-up!  He's trying to, economically.  We might just have to swing the big D, and do it militarily, but I'm asking if we have enough to do that, since we rubes are not in the know.

 

It doesn't matter how advanced our weaponry is. Nuclear war on that scale would be a disaster of beyond-biblical proportions, and is absolutely the wrong way to even think about addressing this issue. Any kind of military response would be both ridiculous and disastrous.

 

This will have to be addressed through international or multinational economic means. Open warfare with China, no matter how morally justified it may be, must remain out of the question.  

[TtownBillsFan]

I wasn't suggesting it should be the answer.  I was asking, if it were the answer we were given, do we think we have the ability to end that right then and there?  I think we probably do (or damn well should, for the black-budget we've expensed).  I, too, hope it never gets there;  but you have to figure, given the budget we've expensed on all of this, that we've kinda known that, at some point, some a-hole is going to try to fling one our way.  I'm asking if anyone thinks we're capable of dealing with that (taking one sent our way off the board).  And if we can take out one, do we have the ability to end multiple?  Probably a question for another thread;  just don't know which.  But I'm mighty curious;  and one of our most plugged-in is out of commission for a few, so wondering what the general populace thinks.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

On 7/17/2020 at 4:02 PM, 123719bwiqrb said:

 

(china owns us)

agreed, unfortunately 

 

 

(sent from my device filled with Chinese manufactured components and assembled in China, thought my Chinese manufactured router, in my basement finished with Chinese manufactured drywall, to your Chinese manufactured device) 

6 hours ago, dpberr said:

The Chinese aren't the world's newest form of Nazis, but they are probably the first in the 21st Century.  

 

It's alleged the "world" doesn't care about genocides if countries genocide their own people, and there is some truth to that as Cinga pointed out.  There's been countless genocides in Africa and South Asia through the 20th Century.  I'm convinced NATO only got off their ass in the former Yugoslavia because the Serbs walked right in and mass murdered nearly 10,000 people in Sreberenica due to the utter cowardice of the Dutch who were there to protect the town.  

 

What has surprised me about the Uyghur catastrophe is where is ISIS, al Qaeda, Hezbollah?  

that’s a good Point. Where is the violent revolt? I guess that’s the upside of a brutal communist regime. 

[BillStime]

14 hours ago, Penfield45 said:

sad sight to see

 

china is the most dangerous threat to humanity in the world right now 

And Trump waited 3.5 years and only moved cuz Bolton outed him. 

[Chef Jim]

5 minutes ago, BillStime said:

And Trump waited 3.5 years and only moved cuz Bolton outed him. 

Only tools politicize a horrible humanitarian crisis. Don’t be a tool. 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

4 minutes ago, BillStime said:

And Trump waited 3.5 years and only moved cuz Bolton outed him. 

 

...so focusing on 3 1/2 years exposes you AGAIN as a known posting fraud.............let's go back TWENTY FOUR YEARS, spanning the Clinton, Bush (YUP a REPUBLICAN) and Obama administrations......outline what preventative maintenance/defensive moves THEY took relative to China's "drive to world dominance"....we kowtowed to them, kissed their respective arses and licked their boots while we got played like a second rate fiddle.....and as far as Bush, the REPUBLICAN, he's the same one when talking about KGB Putin that "I can see the man's soul through his eyes"......dumbazz couldn't see "Line 4" which read KGB.......

[BillStime]

14 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

Only tools politicize a horrible humanitarian crisis. Don’t be a tool. 

You wouldn’t dare call out your buddy Wacka now would you?
 

Ref - your bias and hypocrisy shines daily. 
 

10 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...so focusing on 3 1/2 years exposes you AGAIN as a known posting fraud.............let's go back TWENTY FOUR YEARS, spanning the Clinton, Bush (YUP a REPUBLICAN) and Obama administrations......outline what preventative maintenance/defensive moves THEY took relative to China's "drive to world dominance"....we kowtowed to them, kissed their respective arses and licked their boots while we got played like a second rate fiddle.....and as far as Bush, the REPUBLICAN, he's the same one when talking about KGB Putin that "I can see the man's soul through his eyes"......dumbazz couldn't see "Line 4" which read KGB.......

 
You too bro - take this out on your pal Wacka you freaks lmao 

 

Edited July 19, 2020 by BillStime

[Wacka]

Obama would not have done anything to  cut off the cash spigot named hunter Biden. Bush Jr was a squishy GOPer like  Romney. Did you forget that  the Clintons got grocery bags of cash from  Charlie Tre and other Chicom operatives  IN THE WHITE HOUSE?

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

...put Trump aside for a moment......look at that last THREE administrations...hell even include Bush Sr (ANOTHER REPUBLICAN) who was the former CIA Director and presumed to have AMPLE intelligence on China's aspirations.......what did ANY of them do as far preventative or protective maintenance to protect the US and deter China's goals to dominate?.....

[BillStime]

2 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

...put Trump aside for a moment......look at that last THREE administrations...hell even include Bush Sr (ANOTHER REPUBLICAN) who was the former CIA Director and presumed to have AMPLE intelligence on China's aspirations.......what did ANY of them do as far preventative or protective maintenance to protect the US and deter China's goals to dominate?.....

More evidence 

 

[B-Man]

 

 

 

China's UK ambassador denies abuse of Uighurs despite ...

www.theguardian.com › world › jul › chinas-uk-ambas...

 

4 hours ago - China's ambassador to the UK has insisted the Uighur people live in “peaceful and harmonious coexistence with other ethnic groups”, as he ...

 

 

 

UK accuses China of 'gross' human rights abuses against ...

www.bbc.co.uk › news › uk-politics-53463403

2 hours ago - Chinese officials reject what Dominic Raab says are "deeply troubling" ... Liu Xiaoming told the BBC's Andrew Marr that the Uighurs received the ... Kong government following the imposition of a new security law which the UK 

 

 

 

 

[Chef Jim]

12 minutes ago, BillStime said:

You wouldn’t dare call out your buddy Wacka now would you?
 

Ref - your bias and hypocrisy shines daily. 
 

 
You too bro - take this out on your pal Wacka you freaks lmao 

 

Me not calling him out for being a tool (he is) does not change the fact that you are one. Don’t be a tool. 

1 minute ago, BillStime said:

More evidence 

 

A boring childish broken record tool. 
 

Laughing emoji in 3....2.....1.....

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

2 minutes ago, BillStime said:

More evidence 

 

 

 

....a typical non-answer to solidify your posting propagation.....

[BillStime]

Just now, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

 

....a typical non-answer to solidify your posting propagation.....

Who the hell are you kidding - you don’t care what I think

 

BUT it’s true:

 

[Chef Jim]

8 minutes ago, BillStime said:

More evidence 

 

He bashes two (three if you include Trump) GOP Presidents and he’s in a cult?  ?

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

Just now, BillStime said:

Who the hell are you kidding - you don’t care what I think

 

BUT it’s true:

 

 

...all I know is ignorance is bliss which makes you one happy camper..............

[BillStime]

Just now, Chef Jim said:

He bashes two (three if you include Trump) GOP Presidents and he’s in a cult?  ?

 

Funny thing is? None of you would bash Trump. Why is that?

 

 

 

1 minute ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...all I know is ignorance is bliss which makes you one happy camper..............

Yeah ok - I didn’t vote for Trump - you most likely did

 

[Chef Jim]

1 minute ago, BillStime said:

 

Funny thing is? None of you would bash Trump. Why is that?

 

 

 

We bash him all the time. 

[B-Man]

21 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

 

 

China's UK ambassador denies abuse of Uighurs despite ...

www.theguardian.com › world › jul › chinas-uk-ambas...

 

4 hours ago - China's ambassador to the UK has insisted the Uighur people live in “peaceful and harmonious coexistence with other ethnic groups”, as he ...

 

 

 

UK accuses China of 'gross' human rights abuses against ...

www.bbc.co.uk › news › uk-politics-53463403

2 hours ago - Chinese officials reject what Dominic Raab says are "deeply troubling" ... Liu Xiaoming told the BBC's Andrew Marr that the Uighurs received the ... Kong government following the imposition of a new security law which the UK 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Re-posted.

 

Got buried in the Bullsh*t.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

6 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

He bashes two (three if you include Trump) GOP Presidents and he’s in a cult?  ?

 

 

...sad but true 'Chef...trying to engage in constructive dialogue/discourse is non-sequitur.....WELL beyond their capabilities...."always attack...NEVER defend" reigns true supported by highly reliable social media postings (COUGH).....BUT...it is daily amusement free of charge...........

2 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

 

Re-posted.

 

Got buried in the Bullsh*t.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

UK???....I'm going to wait for the UN to provide the truth.....

[B-Man]

6 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

 

...sad but true 'Chef...trying to engage in constructive dialogue/discourse is non-sequitur.....WELL beyond their capabilities...."always attack...NEVER defend" reigns true supported by highly reliable social media postings (COUGH).....BUT...it is daily amusement free of charge...........

 

UK???....I'm going to wait for the UN to provide the truth.....

 

 

American media will not be posting Anti-China articles, unless forced to.

 

 

 

[snafu]

23 hours ago, RealKayAdams said:

 

Like most human conflicts, this is ultimately about natural resources. The Xinjiang region has a lot of them that the Chinese economy badly needs. The Uyghurs are culturally very different from the Han Chinese and have been flirting with separatist movements for decades. China is doing everything they can get away with in order to make sure Xinjiang doesn’t break off into an independent country. They’ve tried mass migration of Han Chinese into the province. They’ve tried free speech suppression. Now they’re trying “re-education” camps. The CCP clearly feels that they cannot afford to lose control of Xinjiang’s natural resources.

 

What you describe sounds a lot like Tibet in the ‘50s and ‘60s and ‘80s and early this Century. Our response was always to protest the abuses of China vs. the Tibetans. Perhaps international protestation toward China worked to save Tibetans from the Uyghur’s fate.  China never had the available “excuse” of dealing with Muslim extremists when dealing with Tibet.  China doesn’t really get targeted by militant islamists that anyone ever hears of, but they use that as a very thin justification.  

 

 

23 hours ago, RealKayAdams said:

The solution? The international community needs to make it economically more favorable for China to stop this genocidal behavior rather than to let it continue in secret.

 

Do you mean economically more painful for the CCP to continue their actions?

China needs to be called out by any country that has a voice to do so.  Is seems trite, but China is always prickly about its international reputation because it needs to be seen as a good trade partner. The CCP wants to have China be seen as the better alternative to US international influence.  That reputation/goal is fading fast in light of countries’ reactions to their belt-and-road soverignity grab around the world. As well as in reaction to their treaty breaking in Hong Kong, their push against the disputed border with India, and the South China Sea grab (another broken treaty).

 

Problem with China it that they’re not going to back off the Uyghurs until they are satisfied with the result. They just won’t. They didn’t in Tibet.  They didn’t in Hong Kong. When it comes around to Taiwan they probably won’t stop, either. I wouldn’t expect to see a UN coalition anywhere near China since they’ve got veto power (not that the UN is willing to do anything in any event).  I’m not sure whether China could be expelled from the WTO or not (and I don’t know what that would mean). 

 

There needs to be regional pushback against The CCP’s actions as well as international voices.  The 5 Stan countries are only just beginning to organize into a loose regional group to discuss trade and mutual regional problems and solutions. I believe that Kyrgyzstan is refusing to return Uyghurs who fled China in spite of Chinese demands to do so.  There must be more of this, if possible. The South China Sea countries have coalesced against China. Any country that provides raw materials and food to China should be in their face about human rights abuses and territory grabs. The CCP must feed and employ over a billion people. Reducing trade in basic staples will pressurize the CCP from within.

 

it is a super tight balancing act because China will lash out militarily if pushed too hard. Their economy can’t be tanked because it would be a repeat of Japan in the late 1930’s. 

 

23 hours ago, RealKayAdams said:

Biden and Trump both could be doing a lot more to talk about this issue in public. It better be raised during one of the three scheduled presidential debates.

 

If there are debates, yes, for sure. They should both be hawks about this.

And they should do their best to rally allies and foes alike to this problem.

 

 

[B-Man]

The World’s Most Technologically Sophisticated Genocide Is Happening in Xinjiang

The United States needs to formally acknowledge the scale of the atrocities.

BY RAYHAN ASAT, YONAH DIAMOND

 

https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/07/15/uighur-genocide-xinjiang-china-surveillance-sterilization/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

House GOP demands 'immediate' hearing on Uighur 'genocide'

www.washingtonexaminer.com › news › house-gop-de...

 

6 days ago - ... the Chinese Communist Party's "genocide" of the Uighurs in western China. ... on Uighur 'genocide' carried out by Chinese Communist Party.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Uighur Activist Calls On World Leaders To Punish China For ...

www.wbur.org › uighur-muslims-china-human-rights

 

4 days ago - ... been benefiting from the forced labor of Uighur Muslims in China. ... initiative right now is complicit with the Uighurs genocide,” she says.

 

 

 

[RochesterRob]

28 minutes ago, snafu said:

 

What you describe sounds a lot like Tibet in the ‘50s and ‘60s and ‘80s and early this Century. Our response was always to protest the abuses of China vs. the Tibetans. Perhaps international protestation toward China worked to save Tibetans from the Uyghur’s fate.  China never had the available “excuse” of dealing with Muslim extremists when dealing with Tibet.  China doesn’t really get targeted by militant islamists that anyone ever hears of, but they use that as a very thin justification.  

 

 

 

Do you mean economically more painful for the CCP to continue their actions?

China needs to be called out by any country that has a voice to do so.  Is seems trite, but China is always prickly about its international reputation because it needs to be seen as a good trade partner. The CCP wants to have China be seen as the better alternative to US international influence.  That reputation/goal is fading fast in light of countries’ reactions to their belt-and-road soverignity grab around the world. As well as in reaction to their treaty breaking in Hong Kong, their push against the disputed border with India, and the South China Sea grab (another broken treaty).

 

Problem with China it that they’re not going to back off the Uyghurs until they are satisfied with the result. They just won’t. They didn’t in Tibet.  They didn’t in Hong Kong. When it comes around to Taiwan they probably won’t stop, either. I wouldn’t expect to see a UN coalition anywhere near China since they’ve got veto power (not that the UN is willing to do anything in any event).  I’m not sure whether China could be expelled from the WTO or not (and I don’t know what that would mean). 

 

There needs to be regional pushback against The CCP’s actions as well as international voices.  The 5 Stan countries are only just beginning to organize into a loose regional group to discuss trade and mutual regional problems and solutions. I believe that Kyrgyzstan is refusing to return Uyghurs who fled China in spite of Chinese demands to do so.  There must be more of this, if possible. The South China Sea countries have coalesced against China. Any country that provides raw materials and food to China should be in their face about human rights abuses and territory grabs. The CCP must feed and employ over a billion people. Reducing trade in basic staples will pressurize the CCP from within.

 

it is a super tight balancing act because China will lash out militarily if pushed too hard. Their economy can’t be tanked because it would be a repeat of Japan in the late 1930’s. 

 

 

If there are debates, yes, for sure. They should both be hawks about this.

And they should do their best to rally allies and foes alike to this problem.

 

 

  Yes, the Himalaya chain has always been a very effective barrier to the Middle East and keeping a broad conflict from breaking out with India.  If things were different a much different history would have been seen the last 150 years even if there were 500 miles of desert separating China from it neighbors to the West.

 

  Not sure on the late 1930's Japan analogy.  Any trade restrictions would have minimal impact on key Chinese points of interest such as the military and the ruling class.  An US oil embargo hit the Japanese military extremely hard immediately in particular the IJN.  Also, the average citizen in Japan back then held a higher value to the government versus China seeing 100's of millions of peasants as more of a problem than a resource to be tapped. 

[wppete]

23 hours ago, wppete said:

Now lets get back to what we are here for. Systematic Genocide being committed right now by COMMUNIST CHINA!!!!

 

 

Some of the Evil Idiots on here Hijacking this thread, we all know who the idiots are, so let’s all get back to the real importance of this thread,  the systematic genocide being committed by  COMMUNIST CHINA!!!! PLEASE WATCH THE VIDEO AND SEE THE EVIL BEING COMMITTED RIGHT NOW! 

 

Edited July 19, 2020 by wppete

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

1 hour ago, B-Man said:

 

 

American media will not be posting Anti-China articles, unless forced to.

 

 

 

 

 

...ONLY because the much needed push back is occurring with Trump PERIOD.......look at the FOUR previous administrations ala Bush Sr (REPUBLICAN), Clinton, 'lil Bush (REPUBLICAN) and Obama......every damn one was played like a second rate fiddle with three broken strings by China ("Biden says, "our friends").....their stated objective for world dominance went unchecked for FOUR administrations....and now we should singly intercede in their ethnic cleansing while the UN sits idly by?.....of course.......

[dpberr]

"Problem with China it that they’re not going to back off the Uyghurs until they are satisfied with the result. They just won’t. They didn’t in Tibet.  They didn’t in Hong Kong. When it comes around to Taiwan they probably won’t stop, either. I wouldn’t expect to see a UN coalition anywhere near China since they’ve got veto power (not that the UN is willing to do anything in any event).  I’m not sure whether China could be expelled from the WTO or not (and I don’t know what that would mean). "

 

Taiwan is the equivalent of the Polish countryside of 1939.  

 

I'd expect the US to significantly spend money on the Vietnam navy over the next decade.  If there is a country that hates China the most in that area, it's Vietnam.  Won't be surprised to see a lot of Western naval hardware with the Vietnamese flag on it by 2030.  

 

[RochesterRob]

4 minutes ago, dpberr said:

"Problem with China it that they’re not going to back off the Uyghurs until they are satisfied with the result. They just won’t. They didn’t in Tibet.  They didn’t in Hong Kong. When it comes around to Taiwan they probably won’t stop, either. I wouldn’t expect to see a UN coalition anywhere near China since they’ve got veto power (not that the UN is willing to do anything in any event).  I’m not sure whether China could be expelled from the WTO or not (and I don’t know what that would mean). "

 

Taiwan is the equivalent of the Polish countryside of 1939.  

 

I'd expect the US to significantly spend money on the Vietnam navy over the next decade.  If there is a country that hates China the most in that area, it's Vietnam.  Won't be surprised to see a lot of Western naval hardware with the Vietnamese flag on it by 2030.  

 

  Interesting thought on Vietnam but I would expect the armament to be on the small side.  Shore defense and so forth.  Something that has only recently become possible with our government with the Vietnam War era politicians and DoD personnel pretty well gone.  If we are going large then I expect that we will do it with Japan assuming that they are willing.

[snafu]

1 hour ago, RochesterRob said:

  Yes, the Himalaya chain has always been a very effective barrier to the Middle East and keeping a broad conflict from breaking out with India.  If things were different a much different history would have been seen the last 150 years even if there were 500 miles of desert separating China from it neighbors to the West.

 

  Not sure on the late 1930's Japan analogy.  Any trade restrictions would have minimal impact on key Chinese points of interest such as the military and the ruling class.  An US oil embargo hit the Japanese military extremely hard immediately in particular the IJN.  Also, the average citizen in Japan back then held a higher value to the government versus China seeing 100's of millions of peasants as more of a problem than a resource to be tapped. 

 

I’m sure there are differences between today and 1930’s Japan, but there certainly are similarities.  

Japan was already in China for a long time before we said enough and cut oil and froze all Japanese assets in the US. China keeps prodding their borders in an expansionist way.  I think those actions the US took against Japan pushed Japan to seek resources elsewhere in Asia and so they branched out in a violent and comprehensive way. China is setting itself up to do the same thing in several areas of the globe.

 

Don’t underestimate the usefulness of the Chinese yellow slave labor to the CCP’ economic machine. And when the shooting starts, don’t underestimate their usefulness as nominally effective cannon fodder.

 

23 minutes ago, dpberr said:

"Problem with China it that they’re not going to back off the Uyghurs until they are satisfied with the result. They just won’t. They didn’t in Tibet.  They didn’t in Hong Kong. When it comes around to Taiwan they probably won’t stop, either. I wouldn’t expect to see a UN coalition anywhere near China since they’ve got veto power (not that the UN is willing to do anything in any event).  I’m not sure whether China could be expelled from the WTO or not (and I don’t know what that would mean). "

 

Taiwan is the equivalent of the Polish countryside of 1939.  

 

I'd expect the US to significantly spend money on the Vietnam navy over the next decade.  If there is a country that hates China the most in that area, it's Vietnam.  Won't be surprised to see a lot of Western naval hardware with the Vietnamese flag on it by 2030.  

 

 

The Australians have been harassed by the Chinese for years, too, for their natural resources.

I think there would be a lot of pushback in the South China Sea from several countries who are fed up with the bullying.

 

[dpberr]

6 minutes ago, RochesterRob said:

  Interesting thought on Vietnam but I would expect the armament to be on the small side.  Shore defense and so forth.  Something that has only recently become possible with our government with the Vietnam War era politicians and DoD personnel pretty well gone.  If we are going large then I expect that we will do it with Japan assuming that they are willing.

 

Vietnam has signed defense pacts with the US (isn't the irony heavy?) and France (isn't it heavier?) in recent years, so the transfer of technology has already begun. 

 

I think it goes up significantly because there's no love lost between Vietnam and China and they don't trust the Russians to supply them if China tries to invade them again.

 

I'd expect if the West were to pull manufacturing out of China, they'd go to Vietnam.  

 

Vietnam has beaten three world powers in battle, isn't that something?  (colonial French, US, Chinese)   

 

 

[RochesterRob]

14 minutes ago, snafu said:

 

I’m sure there are differences between today and 1930’s Japan, but there certainly are similarities.  

Japan was already in China for a long time before we said enough and cut oil and froze all Japanese assets in the US. China keeps prodding their borders in an expansionist way.  I think those actions the US took against Japan pushed Japan to seek resources elsewhere in Asia and so they branched out in a violent and comprehensive way. China is setting itself up to do the same thing in several areas of the globe.

 

Don’t underestimate the usefulness of the Chinese yellow slave labor to the CCP’ economic machine. And when the shooting starts, don’t underestimate their usefulness as nominally effective cannon fodder.

 

 

The Australians have been harassed by the Chinese for years, too, for their natural resources.

I think there would be a lot of pushback in the South China Sea from several countries who are fed up with the bullying.

 

  Japan was already preparing to grab other resources in Asia before our embargoes.  SE Asia was important for food (rice), rubber, and aluminum before we pressured Japan to look for oil in Indonesia, etc. because of the embargo.  

[RochesterRob]

11 minutes ago, dpberr said:

 

Vietnam has signed defense pacts with the US (isn't the irony heavy?) and France (isn't it heavier?) in recent years, so the transfer of technology has already begun. 

 

I think it goes up significantly because there's no love lost between Vietnam and China and they don't trust the Russians to supply them if China tries to invade them again.

 

I'd expect if the West were to pull manufacturing out of China, they'd go to Vietnam.  

 

Vietnam has beaten three world powers in battle, isn't that something?  (colonial French, US, Chinese)   

 

 

  Yeah, Vietnam "beat" three world powers but there should be an asterisk after the effort against the French and the US.  The French were depleted after WWII and efforts such as DeGaulle meeting Eisenhower bore no fruit in terms of retaining "French Indo-China" as it was known back then.  It has been long rumored that the US went into Vietnam in part to pacify the French because the French believed that they could still run Vietnam as a protectorate of France once the conflict was over.  At the heart of pacifying the French was to have a reliable continental partner in the French in terms of the Cold War so the US would have a place for troops and arms to go to if W Germany got too unstable.  France during the early 1960's was already enduring a sharp turn to the left politically and an action in Vietnam might have the long term effect of stemming communism in France.

 

  Simply, the US never really played to "win" in Vietnam.  They should have gone all out which would have meant a broader conflict which would be bad or simply never went.  But then again you have the issue of keeping France as a reliable Cold War partner.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

48 minutes ago, dpberr said:

 

Vietnam has signed defense pacts with the US (isn't the irony heavy?) and France (isn't it heavier?) in recent years, so the transfer of technology has already begun. 

 

I think it goes up significantly because there's no love lost between Vietnam and China and they don't trust the Russians to supply them if China tries to invade them again.

 

I'd expect if the West were to pull manufacturing out of China, they'd go to Vietnam.  

 

Vietnam has beaten three world powers in battle, isn't that something?  (colonial French, US, Chinese)   

 

 

Home field advantage.

[wppete]

 

 

 

 

 

[Reality Check]

I take it that people aren't going to be as supportive of the shipping off of the remainder of America's manufacturing base.

 

Well that's good, better late than never, although it's pretty damn late in the game.

 

Maybe a collective national apology may be in order for the American working class who were crushed over the last 30 years.

 

Now, we as voters get to reap what we have sewn.

 

Curious how no one saw this coming, despite it all being done quite intentionally, and with bipartisan support.

 

China sent us the Covid 19, but God forbid anyone blamed China for intentionally sending it into the west.

 

But now, people are worked up over the camps?

 

I guess China's only mistake was running such camps, as the American population seemed content to surrender ourselves economically to China without any resistance otherwise.

 

Hell, we have communists in our own country rioting everyday with the support of the MSM.

 

We have Democrat leadership that either supports them or is dead silent on the riots.

 

It will be interesting what comes next.

 

 

[Unforgiven]

genocide? this post must be giggle pron for tibs

[4merper4mer]

5 hours ago, wppete said:

 

 

 

 

 

Do these Ughyur people know that they are costing LeCom big $$$$$$$?

[ComradeKayAdams]

On 7/18/2020 at 8:49 PM, Cinga said:

Couple things... First, this is a thread about China, NOT the US but since you brought it up, our record is certainly a hell of a lot better than China or Russia, or literally any other nation on this planet. Has it been perfect, absolutely not! Discussion for another time, but the problem over the course of time you mention is that politicians seem to think they know how to win battles and their stupid ass ROEs. But again I remind you, this isn't about the US.

As for negotiations and that previous remark to make it economically prudent for them. This is a country who just got 57 other nations to agree to their takeover of Hong Kong. Which nations do you have in mind to join us? Maybe a trade embargo? Increased tariffs? isn't the orangeman trying that?

Maybe you want to just give them cash incentives? Promise to be nice and we'll give you taxpayer money? Or perhaps you want to resurrect the TPP? Send jobs back to not only China, but other nations in SE Asia as well? Every multilateral trade deal in US history has been at the expense of the US. Those jobs this was supposed to create? Yeah, they would have been in other countries, not ours.

So the question remains... Who is going to join us in those trade negotiations? Who is going to join us in those multilateral sanctions? Please expand?

 

I’m more than happy to keep the focus of the discussion here on the Uyghurs and China, so I will refrain from a long and tired essay on the ethical and strategic failures of post-WW 2 US foreign policy. It’s slightly relevant to this topic, however, because our international reputation affects how we can go about solving the Uyghur genocide problem.

 

Look at the list of the 50+ countries who have defended China on Xinjiang and on Hong Kong. Notice how they tend to fall into 2 groups: African countries that stand to benefit economically from good Chinese relations, and then countries with reason to hate the US because of our 75 years of foreign policy blunders and bullying. With the latter group, we have inadvertently strengthened China’s global power by pushing many of these countries over to our enemy’s side as a consequence of our long history of organized coups, draconian sanctions, economically motivated wars, drone/bomb collateral damage, etc...

 

Also note that I’ve never made an absurd moral equivalence argument between the deliberate Chinese genocide of Uyghurs and US foreign policy mistakes. Even so, from time to time our international enemies do love to point out our own internal history of Native American genocide and African American slavery. Quite an unfair argument since all those responsible have been dead for a long time, but the greater point here is that (recent or old) track records of human rights abuses matter and that they taint future international relationships.

 

Ok, now a quick pivot back to China and the Uyghurs…

 

My hope is that Europe, the rest of the industrialized West, Brazil, India, Japan, South Korea, and all of the other democratic countries in the world would join the US in multilateral trade negotiations. These countries I just listed form a huge percentage of the total global GDP, so that is an overwhelming amount of economic leverage right there. “Incentivized” multilateral trade negotiations do NOT mean free bags of bribery cash courtesy of the American taxpayers. I’m referring to complex, mutually beneficial trade deals involving many countries besides the US and China. And no, I do not want to resurrect the TPP. I’m as outspoken as one can get against TPP, NAFTA, most of USMCA, and globalism’s failures in general.

 

I’ll ask again for the message board community: what are the viable alternatives? If anyone wants to suggest military action, then walk us through how that would play out on the international arena. The pandemic’s attack on the global economy has the world’s leaders sufficiently on edge right now, so one or two missteps could easily trigger World War 3. No, I don’t think I’m being entirely hyperbolic.

 

20 hours ago, snafu said:

Do you mean economically more painful for the CCP to continue their actions?

 

Yes, that’s a slightly less diplomatic but equally valid way of saying the same thing: multilateral economic pressure on China is our best bet in saving the Uyghurs. Your idea of mass international protests a la Tibet is excellent, since that would publicly humiliate China and scare them with threats of worldwide boycotts of their (craptacular) products.