Bangarang Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 24 minutes ago, Bad Things said: So, was the blood coming out of his ears fake too? Is that at all what I am saying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Things Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Bangarang said: Is that at all what I am saying? You just wrote that this man, "pulled similar stunts at protests in the past." Don't you think that sounds like your suggesting the possibility that this was all staged? It does to me. If it's not, then it was poorly written. Edited June 6, 2020 by Bad Things Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed83HOF Posted June 6, 2020 Author Share Posted June 6, 2020 32 minutes ago, Doc Brown said: They could not have handled this worse. you could say this about almost every police department & union right now 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangarang Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 38 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: If by "similar stunts" you mean confronted police and then fallen, can you substantiate this? No, I can’t substantiate it. 38 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I don't really care whose helmet it was, but I can't watch those videos and conclude "it looked like he was selling the fall". Nor can I personally make out what was being said in the video of him hanging out in Niagara Square earlier. I care whose helmet it was because I’ve seen a lot of people concluding that he was simply being a good samaritan and returning it back to police. Ive seen numerous people refer to this as a violent shoving. I don’t see that. 38 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I believe he's not a sweet little old man handing the police officer his helmet and he may be a bit of a rabble rouser - Bill's point that approaching the police line which is preparing to clear the square is not "normal Joe" behavior has validity - but I don't see how that justifies the police behavior. They did not have to push him; two of them did not have to push him at once. They probably didn’t have to push him. They could have just grabbed him and arrested him right there if he refused to follow commands. The bottom line is cops have a right to protect their personal space and if you get too close to them while they’re telling you to get back then it’s possible and likely that things escalate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Things Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 Just now, Reed83HOF said: you could say this about almost every police department & union right now Agreed. Fortunately this is shining a light on it and exposing for all to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangarang Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 7 minutes ago, Bad Things said: You just wrote that this man, "pulled similar stunts at protests in the past." Don't you think that sounds like your suggesting the possibility that this was all staged? It does to me. If it's not, then it was poorly written. No, I mean he’s pulled similar stunts of looking for a confrontation and ending up on the ground. The blood from the ear is obviously real and this could have been handled better by both sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Things Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Bangarang said: No, I mean he’s pulled similar stunts of looking for a confrontation and ending up on the ground. The blood from the ear is obviously real and this could have been handled better by both sides. The point is that the police should not have acted with aggression. It's as simple as that. It was totally unwarranted. He could be the biggest a-hole in the world, but you don't do that to a 75 year old citizen of the community that you're supposed to be serving. Police should be setting the example and not be the thugs. Edited June 6, 2020 by Bad Things 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed83HOF Posted June 6, 2020 Author Share Posted June 6, 2020 4 minutes ago, Bad Things said: Agreed. Fortunately this is shining a light on it and exposing for all to see. and uniting the white and black communities in the process. The white folks who were protesting do not like to be shot at, tear gassed, assaulted by police for no reason (in quite a few instances), arrested for illegal curfews aimed at curtailing first amendment protected protests , being detained indefinitely, locked in a cage, and have the relieve themselves in the same cage. What happens when the cameras aren't around? 2 minutes ago, Bad Things said: The point is that the police should not have acted with aggression. It's as simple as that. It was totally unwarranted. He could be the biggest a-hole in the world, but you don't do that to a 75 year old citizen of the community that you're supposed to serve. Police should be setting the example and not be the thugs. how many times have you seen this the past week? I can think of only 1 instance in Ft Lauderdale 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangarang Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 6 minutes ago, Bad Things said: The point is that the police should not have acted with aggression. It's as simple as that. It was totally unwarranted. He could be the biggest a-hole in the world, but you don't do that to a 75 year old citizen of the community that you're supposed to be serving. Police should be setting the example and not be the thugs. We’ll agree to disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 17 minutes ago, Bangarang said: No, I can’t substantiate it. K. 'Cuz he apparently does have a long history as a political activist, so I would imagine it's not his first rodeo but that doesn't make him an actor. Quote I care whose helmet it was because I’ve seen a lot of people concluding that he was simply being a good samaritan and returning it back to police. Fair. I don't care whose helmet it was because he was videoed holding the helmet while he held forth with other protesters in Niagara Square some time earlier; there were plenty of police officers about to whom he could have delivered the helmet if it was a police helmet and he were simply being a good Samaritan. Thus even if it was a police helmet, trying to return it then and there when he clearly had opportunities earlier makes it a stunt not an innocent action. Quote Ive seen numerous people refer to this as a violent shoving. I don’t see that. I've seen a still where it's pretty clear he's being lifted onto his toes and his chest shoved back from the force of the baton shove, and where the officer using his arm to push him is clearly stepping into the shove. I'm not prepared to characterize it as a gentle or mild shove Quote They probably didn’t have to push him. They could have just grabbed him and arrested him right there if he refused to follow commands. The bottom line is cops have a right to protect their personal space and if you get too close to them while they’re telling you to get back then it’s possible and likely that things escalate. See, here is where I get lost. Listen to yourself: the only alternatives you see are arrest or escalation. Why aren't there other alternatives? The man didn't have a gun or a knife or even a water bottle potentially filled with acid or pee in his hand. Why are these the only alternatives in the police operational vocabulary, so to speak? Why are there no alternatives that don't escalate the situation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Things Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 2 minutes ago, Bangarang said: We’ll agree to disagree. Hold on... are you really saying that you don't have a problem with what the police did, or am I just confused? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 22 minutes ago, Bangarang said: No, I mean he’s pulled similar stunts of looking for a confrontation and ending up on the ground. Again, can you source? It seems like an important point. He's clearly been at other protests, but frankly, being at other protest and being repeatedly confronted/put on the ground by police seems to me a bit like it could be a systemic problem with how protests are handled. On the other hand, it is possible that he could be a known *****-disturber who tries to stage-manage confrontations, and if so, that would rather explain the reaction of the police who resigned. If he expects to elicit a confrontation where he's shoved around by police, he should enroll in a Judo class and freakin' learn how to fall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muppy Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 my opinion is that this incident would not have occurred if the gentleman hadn't have approached the police in the first place. It was not a smart move on his part. However do I believe this man intended to trap said officers into a situation where he would be seriously injured. Nope i don't buy that at all. He may have been prepared to dialogue or even suffer arrest but not severe bodily damage JMO...If anything good is to come of this situation Ithink the following are valuable lessons to take from it. 1. Don't assume police won't be willing to use physical force when you are technically in the wrong even if non violent options would be better serving the public and themselves. 2. Be VERY careful not to mess with cops especially when tensions are already escalated they are human like we are and can make mistakes in judgment 3. They are a very tight fraternity and also Very likely to protect and stand by their own against civilians they are supposed to be "protecting and serving" 4. many are ex military dont assume they will look for a peaceful solution first... I dont think their training wires them that way.. 5. Police training and communuty police relations need serious rehab after all of this. JMO. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDS Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 54 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Again, can you source? It seems like an important point. He's clearly been at other protests, but frankly, being at other protest and being repeatedly confronted/put on the ground by police seems to me a bit like it could be a systemic problem with how protests are handled. On the other hand, it is possible that he could be a known *****-disturber who tries to stage-manage confrontations, and if so, that would rather explain the reaction of the police who resigned. If he expects to elicit a confrontation where he's shoved around by police, he should enroll in a Judo class and freakin' learn how to fall the part that felt funny to me was when he decided to approach as they started marching. My gut says there may have been some baiting there and it went south. Of course, they didn’t and shouldn’t have taken the bait (if that was intended). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 3 minutes ago, SDS said: the part that felt funny to me was when he decided to approach as they started marching. My gut says there may have been some baiting there and it went south. Of course, they didn’t and shouldn’t have taken the bait (if that was intended). That was part of @BillfromNYC's original point - why wait until police are lined up and about to march then approach them? Especially once it was seen on video that he, holding the helmet, had been in Niagara Square for a while previous. I think you are probably right on both points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinceThe70s Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 31 minutes ago, Margarita said: my opinion is that this incident would not have occurred if the gentleman hadn't have approached the police in the first place. It was not a smart move on his part. However do I believe this man intended to trap said officers into a situation where he would be seriously injured. Nope i don't buy that at all. He may have been prepared to dialogue or even suffer arrest but not severe bodily damage JMO...If anything good is to come of this situation Ithink the following are valuable lessons to take from it. 1. Don't assume police won't be willing to use physical force when you are technically in the wrong even if non violent options would be better serving the public and themselves. 2. Be VERY careful not to mess with cops especially when tensions are already escalated they are human like we are and can make mistakes in judgment 3. They are a very tight fraternity and also Very likely to protect and stand by their own against civilians they are supposed to be "protecting and serving" 4. many are ex military dont assume they will look for a peaceful solution first... I dont think their training wires them that way.. 5. Police training and communuty police relations need serious rehab after all of this. JMO. For the most part this mirrors how I see it, in particular the first few sentences. The only thing I'd add is to consider the mind set of a police officer who got hit with bricks thrown at him/her the night before. Happened to my friends son last friday. Not saying that's what happened here, but I have to think that when you're showing up to work in full riot gear you're expecting/preparing for the worst. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CowgirlsFan Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 Sad just sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed83HOF Posted June 6, 2020 Author Share Posted June 6, 2020 TBD shoutout @Mike in Horseheads Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 "...until neither the Plain nor the Star-Bellies knew whether this one was that one... or that one was this one... or which one was what one... or what one was who." Everybody has to feel special in their special tribe. Cops, protesters, etc... "What a field-day for the heat A thousand people in the street Singing songs and carrying signs Mostly say, hooray for our side..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike in Horseheads Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 2 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said: TBD shoutout @Mike in Horseheads I mean really. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangarang Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 1 hour ago, Bad Things said: Hold on... are you really saying that you don't have a problem with what the police did, or am I just confused? I don’t have a problem with it. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 He didn't have his chinstrap on tight enough! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PastaJoe Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 2 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said: He didn't have his chinstrap on tight enough! I thought he had a pre-existing condition that causes him to bleed when he lies down. ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangarang Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: K. 'Cuz he apparently does have a long history as a political activist, so I would imagine it's not his first rodeo but that doesn't make him an actor. I’m not saying he was pretending to be injured if that’s what you meant. 1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Fair. I don't care whose helmet it was because he was videoed holding the helmet while he held forth with other protesters in Niagara Square some time earlier; there were plenty of police officers about to whom he could have delivered the helmet if it was a police helmet and he were simply being a good Samaritan. Thus even if it was a police helmet, trying to return it then and there when he clearly had opportunities earlier makes it a stunt not an innocent action. I've seen a still where it's pretty clear he's being lifted onto his toes and his chest shoved back from the force of the baton shove, and where the officer using his arm to push him is clearly stepping into the shove. I'm not prepared to characterize it as a gentle or mild shove It wasn’t mild but it also wasn’t violent. 1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: see, here is where I get lost. Listen to yourself: the only alternatives you see are arrest or escalation. Why aren't there other alternatives? The man didn't have a gun or a knife or even a water bottle potentially filled with acid or pee in his hand. Why are these the only alternatives in the police operational vocabulary, so to speak? Why are there no alternatives that don't escalate the situation? What alternatives would you like to see? There’s a large group of cops in riot gear trying to clear an area. They are yelling to get back but he advances towards them, getting very close. How long are police supposed to try and plea and negotiate with someone who clearly isn’t listening or doesn’t want to? At what point do we get to protect our personal space? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muppy Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 Madison Carter@madisonlcarter #BREAKING: now-suspended officers Torgalski and McCabe are scheduled to be arraigned tomorrow morning. 4 sources confirm via texts sent by union to ERT former-members. Being told charges have been upgraded to assault in the second degree. A class D felony.@WKBW 338 8:00 PM - Jun 5, 2020 Twitter Ads info and privacy 163 people are talking about this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed83HOF Posted June 6, 2020 Author Share Posted June 6, 2020 10 minutes ago, PastaJoe said: I thought he had a pre-existing condition that causes him to bleed when he lies down. ? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Hammersticks Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 2 minutes ago, Bangarang said: What alternatives would you like to see? There’s a large group of cops in riot gear trying to clear an area. They are yelling to get back but he advances towards them, getting very close. How long are police supposed to try and plea and negotiate with someone who clearly isn’t listening or doesn’t want to? At what point do we get to protect our personal space? Ummm, if they felt he was breaking the law, the police could have safely placed him under arrest. Especially given that he was an elderly man. No need to push or shove at all. That was a stupid decision. I agree that the actions of he police was not egregiously violent or out of line, however, the outcome was horrible. This could have been avoided with some simple common sense. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4_kidd_4 Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 No ERT at this evening’s downtown protests, and there was no violence. Weird. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangarang Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Johnny Hammersticks said: Ummm, if they felt he was breaking the law, the police could have safely placed him under arrest. Especially given that he was an elderly man. No need to push or shove at all. That was a stupid decision. I agree that the actions of he police was not egregiously violent or out of line, however, the outcome was horrible. This could have been avoided with some simple common sense. I agree, the outcome was horrible. I also agree that they could have just arrested him and likely avoided all this. I don’t think there was intent to injure him. 3 minutes ago, 4_kidd_4 said: No ERT at this evening’s downtown protests, and there was no violence. Weird. Why is that weird? There have been peaceful protests in areas where ERT was present. Edited June 6, 2020 by Bangarang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Hammersticks Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 9 minutes ago, Bangarang said: I agree, the outcome was horrible. I also agree that they could have just arrested him and likely avoided all this. I don’t think there was intent to injure him. I agree with the bolded, but jails and prisons are full of people who didn’t “intend” to commit crimes. Stupid choices lead to harsh outcomes sometimes. I don’t think that these police officers should be prosecuted “to the fullest extent of the law,” but they should have appropriate consequences based on a fair investigation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muppy Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 there are several breaking developments to this situation I suggest you go to www.wkbw.com and preruse the information within. Quote All officers in the Buffalo Police Emergency Response Team resign from roles on team 57 officers resign in support of suspended officers Quote EXCLUSIVE: Two Buffalo Police ERT members say resignation was not in solidarity with suspended officers Police Union is refusing to back the policemen involved in this occurance. That's pretty shocking really Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed83HOF Posted June 6, 2020 Author Share Posted June 6, 2020 (edited) Edited June 6, 2020 by Reed83HOF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed83HOF Posted June 6, 2020 Author Share Posted June 6, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 Just now, Bangarang said: What alternatives would you like to see? There’s a large group of cops in riot gear trying to clear an area. They are yelling to get back but he advances towards them, getting very close. How long are police supposed to try and plea and negotiate with someone who clearly isn’t listening or doesn’t want to? At what point do we get to protect our personal space? Well, I don't like the whole approach of interfering with Constitutionally protected free speech and free assembly rights of citizens by issuing a curfew (or declaring an assembly unlawful by bullhorn), then clearing it and arresting people with riot-gear clad police. I think it's a tactic that's intrinsically incompatible with de-escalation and that by its nature requires the police to be "amped up". It also allows officers who "roll that way" opportunity to brutalize citizens with impunity. On that I have four words: Luther Hall St Louis. I don't want to pretend to expertise I lack, but it just seems to me there has to be a different way. What seemed to calm things down in St Louis wasn't more riot shields and more tanks, but when the Hwy Patrol was called in and their commander just went out and marched and talked to people and they changed tactics to be less confrontational Despite the rhetoric from some places, that's the sense of the approach I get from this interview with Minnesota National Guard Commander Maj. General Jon Jenson I found it interesting, anyway: https://www.npr.org/2020/06/01/867256439/what-it-is-like-to-be-a-national-guard-member-during-the-riots-in-minneapolis I realize I'm not answering the question you asked and I do apologize, but I can't legitimately answer "what should they do?" based on a set of assumptions (the riot gear, the orders to clear the area) when I have questions about the assumptions. I suppose given the strategy and tactics that were being employed, I would say the police officers should have set a boundry to keep him further off and not have to push him. Again, I don't want to claim expertise I lack, it's my understanding there are baton techniques for this other than "laying it on". But if the guy was determined to push the boundries then I suppose he had to be arrested. It did him no favors to do what they did.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 1 hour ago, PastaJoe said: I thought he had a pre-existing condition that causes him to bleed when he lies down. ? But only from his ear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warcodered Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 1 hour ago, Reed83HOF said: You know maybe riot police should be a response and not a preventative measure. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed83HOF Posted June 6, 2020 Author Share Posted June 6, 2020 1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Well, I don't like the whole approach of interfering with Constitutionally protected free speech and free assembly rights of citizens by issuing a curfew (or declaring an assembly unlawful by bullhorn), then clearing it and arresting people with riot-gear clad police. I think it's a tactic that's intrinsically incompatible with de-escalation and that by its nature requires the police to be "amped up". It also allows officers who "roll that way" opportunity to brutalize citizens with impunity. On that I have four words: Luther Hall St Louis. I don't want to pretend to expertise I lack, but it just seems to me there has to be a different way. What seemed to calm things down in St Louis wasn't more riot shields and more tanks, but when the Hwy Patrol was called in and their commander just went out and marched and talked to people and they changed tactics to be less confrontational Despite the rhetoric from some places, that's the sense of the approach I get from this interview with Minnesota National Guard Commander Maj. General Jon Jenson I found it interesting, anyway: https://www.npr.org/2020/06/01/867256439/what-it-is-like-to-be-a-national-guard-member-during-the-riots-in-minneapolis I realize I'm not answering the question you asked and I do apologize, but I can't legitimately answer "what should they do?" based on a set of assumptions (the riot gear, the orders to clear the area) when I have questions about the assumptions. I suppose given the strategy and tactics that were being employed, I would say the police officers should have set a boundry to keep him further off and not have to push him. Again, I don't want to claim expertise I lack, it's my understanding there are baton techniques for this other than "laying it on". But if the guy was determined to push the boundries then I suppose he had to be arrested. It did him no favors to do what they did.... The rioting occurs when the protest is not able to self police, which many of them were pretty good at doing until mayhem started. Once the mayhem started, the ability to self police went away because everyone was trying not to get their eyes shot out, beat, arrested or dealing with the effects of tear gas and pepper spray. This created an opportunity for the bad actors within the protest and those from outside to come an achieve their goal. There was a local article out here in LA, from a local pizza businesshttps://www.dailynews.com/2020/06/03/la-pizza-shop-weathers-pandemic-takes-beating-from-vandals/ “We were slinging slices. Everyone was happy. It was a very peaceful march,” Alt recalled Sunday as he surveyed the damage at his restaurant. As the sun was setting, most marchers had moved on. Then a different group came into the neighborhood, he said, and they weren’t carrying signs or protesting anything. “These were professional looters,” Alt said. “It seemed like people were excited to rage and riot.” He watched in disbelief as several cars pulled up across the street and a group of about 20 people got out and rampaged through a liquor store. They grabbed bottles of booze and bags of chips. Within 30 seconds, they had cleared the place out. Alt closed early and left around 9 p.m., taking all the cash and tablet computers. It seems like if as you suggest, you a de-escalating technique upfront and during the protest, it is easier and more likely for self-governance and achieving good results. It is near the end of the protest or as it moves on, making sure you have the resources left to provide the basic security for the area that is needed. But that begs a question, sould you have more enforcement in the area or do you police it as normal? I am not going to discuss the effectiveness of regular enforcement for a burglary at a business in normal situations since that id likely another discussion LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed83HOF Posted June 6, 2020 Author Share Posted June 6, 2020 jw really does such a good job 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Things Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 2 hours ago, Bangarang said: What alternatives would you like to see? There’s a large group of cops in riot gear trying to clear an area. They are yelling to get back but he advances towards them, getting very close. How long are police supposed to try and plea and negotiate with someone who clearly isn’t listening or doesn’t want to? At what point do we get to protect our personal space? What alternatives? Uh, how about acting civil and respectful? If he broke the law, you can arrest him, but there really shouldn't be any injuries involved with arresting a 75 year old man. Apart from race, this is exactly what all of the protests are about. Police officers crossing the line and not being held accountable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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