The Bills' suddenly deadly WR corps

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

Diggs needs to turn that juggs machine all the way up because Allen is the only QB that can throw faster than the highest setting on the Juggs. If Diggs doesn't get a lot of practice time with Allen expect a few drops early on.

[Cripple Creek]

On 5/3/2020 at 8:19 AM, PromoTheRobot said:

 

I wonder if the narrative will shift if Allen succeeds? Will people say Diggs, Brown and Beasley are carrying Allen?

I don't think that's ever happened, so no.

[eball]

On 5/3/2020 at 8:19 AM, PromoTheRobot said:

 

I wonder if the narrative will shift if Allen succeeds? Will people say Diggs, Brown and Beasley are carrying Allen?

 

LOL -- I'm sure some will say the receiver talent is making Josh look good by catching his errant throws, or something like that.

[PromoTheRobot]

15 hours ago, Utah John said:

Who cares?

 

Uhhhh, everyone here?

50 minutes ago, eball said:

 

LOL -- I'm sure some will say the receiver talent is making Josh look good by catching his errant throws, or something like that.

 

Gotta stick to his draft narrative. Not gonna let success force people to admit they were wrong.

[FireChans]

21 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I've thought about this often since Diggs arrived.   

 

I think there will be two predominant narratives.   One is that the receivers will be said to be carrying Allen.   The other will be that Allen has made this miraculous leap.   Both will be wrong.   The correct narrative almost certainly will be that Allen has been making steady progress since he arrived in Buffalo and his third season simply demonstrates the cumulative effect of all of the progress he's made.   Diggs will help, no doubt, but Allen's continuing progress will make people think something miraculous has happened.

 

Unrelated topic, but the other narrative that I've seen developing is that Fromm's football smarts will benefit and push Allen.   The unstated assumption in this newly developing narrative is that Allen isn't smart enough to play the position, that he is an out-of-control guy who needs someone to reign him in.  

 

We're going into year three of the media making up stuff to justify their continuing conclusion that Allen isn't good enough.  It's an extension of the running narrative that the Bills suck and always will suck.   Eventually, these narratives will change, because Allen will consistently be one of the best QBs in the league, and then the narrative will be "who would have thought that this out-of-control gunslinger ever would have evolved into this?"   

 

The truth is that Allen is a smart, hard-working, intensely competitive young man, team oriented and a great natural leader.   On top of that he's blessed with great pure physical skills.   The people promoting these narratives will be surprised at his success, but the people who have been paying attention to who he actually is aren't going to be surprised at all.  

Why even play the games if we’re already certain about the narratives? What if Diggs gets hurt and misses 12 games and Allen throws 30 picks?

On 5/3/2020 at 8:19 AM, PromoTheRobot said:

 

I wonder if the narrative will shift if Allen succeeds? Will people say Diggs, Brown and Beasley are carrying Allen?

Everyone is out to get Josh Allen. 

[Gugny]

3 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Why even play the games if we’re already certain about the narratives? What if Diggs gets hurt and misses 12 games and Allen throws 30 picks?

 

Any 300 yard games, though?

[Shaw66]

4 hours ago, MOVALLEYRANDY said:

There is no excuse for bottom third QB play anymore. The weapons are sufficient. This is a top 5 team, talent wise, with a big deficit at QB. If he has the same piss poor passing stats and the teams suffers for it, I wonder how many "Kiss the Ring" guys will stay in denial. Should be interesting and I hope he succeeds. He has very rarely shown that he is more than "JAG". Maybe with these weapons at receiver the passing game will improve but the guys need a QB to throw them open, utilize their height and/or speed, and stop trying to be Superman. I hope I am wrong but I just don't see this guy as having the goods. 

First, it's funny how a thread about the receivers inevitably turns into a thread about Allen, but it's to be expected. 

 

Second, I disagree with your opinion, but I really like your last sentence.  At the end of the day, all each of has is an opinion, and yours is that Allen doesn't have what it takes to be a successful NFL QB.   I think you're ignoring too much evidence to the contrary, but all that is is my opinion.   There's enough evidence to support your opinion, so I get that you can feel that way.   

 

So I assume you also think that Sam Darnold and Baker Mayfield don't have the goods, because they have performed demonstrably worse that Allen, and also that Kyler Murray is at least on your watch list, because his first season was not materially different from Allen's second.     I think that means you must be in the camp that says if a QB isn't in the top 10 by his second season, he doesn't have the goods.   So that would mean you wouldn't want Matt Stafford, Matt Ryan, Andrew Luck or Drew Brees, all of whom took more than two years to emerge.   Josh Allen's 2019 passing stats were better than Tom Brady's for each of the first three years that Brady started.   He didn't have the goods, either? 

 

So what is it, exactly that you think is missing from Allen's game, the thing that will keep him forever from becoming a top 10 quarterback, the thing that Stafford and Ryan and Brees and Brady showed they had in their first few years starting?   

 

Many fans fail to recognize that most successful NFL quarterbacks take multiple years, three, four, five years, to learn to compete at a high level in the NFL.   They fail to recognize that early success of Mitch Trubisky, Derek Carr, Carson Wentz, RGIII hasn't translated into consistent success.   

 

Bottom line for me is that it's too early to tell about Allen.   He improved through his rookie season, and he improved through his second season, so there's no good reason to conclude that he's done improving.  

 

 

[FireChans]

5 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

Any 300 yard games, though?

The narrative is almost certainly going to be that Josh Allen can not stop throwing 300 yards plus every game. He will crush his opposition and lead the #1 offense of all time.

 

See you guys in 2021.

[Shaw66]

9 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Why even play the games if we’re already certain about the narratives? What if Diggs gets hurt and misses 12 games and Allen throws 30 picks?

 

Well, high there.  I see that you like to argue.

 

The clear, and I do mean clear, absolutely clear, crystal clear premise to the sentence of mine that you highlighted in bold was that Allen's statistics had gone up in 2020.   That's what we're talking about - what will people say if after the 2020 season if Allen's stats have improved.   So it is colossally stupid to respond by asking what if Allen throws 30 picks.   We aren't talking about what is the narrative if Allen plays worse.  

 

Please stop.   

[FireChans]

6 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Well, high there.  I see that you like to argue.

 

The clear, and I do mean clear, absolutely clear, crystal clear premise to the sentence of mine that you highlighted in bold was that Allen's statistics had gone up in 2020.   That's what we're talking about - what will people say if after the 2020 season if Allen's stats have improved.   So it is colossally stupid to respond by asking what if Allen throws 30 picks.   We aren't talking about what is the narrative if Allen plays worse.  

 

Please stop.   

Fair enough. The rest of your posts just reads like a divine prophecy of Allen's success, which is why I posed the question.

22 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

because Allen will consistently be one of the best QBs in the league

 

 

The people promoting these narratives will be surprised at his success, but the people who have been paying attention to who he actually is aren't going to be surprised at all.  

 

[eball]

39 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Everyone is out to get Josh Allen. 

 

There are already articles in print claiming by 2021 Jake Fromm will take over the Bills' starting QB role.  You're blind/deaf/ignorant if you don't acknowledge there is a significant contingent in the "QB evaluation" world who will only give Allen credit if they are forced to do so.

 

I don't personally care one way or the other.  I'm happy with Josh's progress so far and I expect that progression to continue.  Wins and playoff runs are all that matter to me.  But I don't ignore the chatter out there or pretend it doesn't exist.

[FireChans]

9 minutes ago, eball said:

 

There are already articles in print claiming by 2021 Jake Fromm will take over the Bills' starting QB role.  You're blind/deaf/ignorant if you don't acknowledge there is a significant contingent in the "QB evaluation" world who will only give Allen credit if they are forced to do so.

 

I don't personally care one way or the other.  I'm happy with Josh's progress so far and I expect that progression to continue.  Wins and playoff runs are all that matter to me.  But I don't ignore the chatter out there or pretend it doesn't exist.

There are also people claiming Hurts may take over for Wentz.  So much so that the GM had to come out and make statements about how Wentz is their guy. And Wentz is a better QB than Josh.

 

That's sports.  Folks will make outlandish takes to generate headlines. 

Edited May 4, 2020 by FireChans

[eball]

5 minutes ago, FireChans said:

There are also people claiming Hurts may take over for Wentz.  So much so that the GM had to come out and make statements about how Wentz is their guy. And Wentz is a better QB than Josh.

 

That's sports.  Folks will make outlandish takes to generate headlines. 

 

It's interesting you bring up Wentz.  While he unquestionably has put up better numbers than Josh so far at the same respective point in their careers, I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest he is a bigger risk than Josh right now because of the significant injury history.

 

I agree there is a lot of click-bait out there, but the "Josh Allen is/will be a bust" crowd was VERY vocal.

[FireChans]

11 minutes ago, eball said:

 

It's interesting you bring up Wentz.  While he unquestionably has put up better numbers than Josh so far at the same respective point in their careers, I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest he is a bigger risk than Josh right now because of the significant injury history.

 

I agree there is a lot of click-bait out there, but the "Josh Allen is/will be a bust" crowd was VERY vocal.

Nah 1 year of success vs multiple.  Injuries do increase his risk, but he's at the same level as risk as Josh at worst, IMO.  Especially after last year where he took tomato cans to the postseason. Their offense was 12th in pts and 14th in yards without a WR with 500 yards. Honestly might have been as impressive as his MVP year.

 

I'll stop derailing there.

 

 

[SCBills]

Josh certainly needs to make the next step, and I have no reason to think he won't, but its strange how so many just disregard him having bottom of the league level skill position players for his first two years.   Even the OL, which is much improved, was about average last year. 

 

We say guys like Mahomes, Wentz, Watson etc., have all proven to be franchise QB's but, what a coincidence.... they all have had talent around them since coming into the league.

[billsfan89]

Just now, ScottLaw said:

I agree that timid mindset once they got a league was frustrating, but the offense sputtered down the stretch.... after the cowboys game they scored 17, 17, 17, 3(with backups and Barkley), and 19 in 5 quarters..... that's pretty bad. 

 

The offense also played the Steelers away, New England away and Baltimore at home during that stretch 3 of the most brutal defenses in the league and 2 of them away to boot. I think given that context it makes it a little more clear why the point totals got lower against those teams. Yes in the playoff game the offense ***** the bed. All they needed was to get the defense a three possession lead and they couldn't put the hammer down up 16. But the offense overall on the back half of the season was in my opinion better and more consistent against superior competition. 

 

I think it is cherry picking the most brutal 3 game stretch of the schedule and a game with the backups to say that the offense sputtered to close the regular season. If you take into account the totality of the back half of the regular season I think you see a more consistent less turnover prone offense.

[Bufflow4]

 

Edited May 4, 2020 by Bufflow4

[Mark Vader]

On 5/3/2020 at 6:38 AM, CaptnCoke11 said:

And people thought he was good..

I would take him over Kelvin Benjamin

[Mark Vader]

On 5/3/2020 at 9:11 AM, HappyDays said:

 

Capped off by Nate Peterman at QB and an o-line consisting of Dawkins, Ducasse, Bodine, Miller, and Mills. That roster has a legitimate claim as the worst offense of all time. The only player that belonged on the field was Dawkins.

Amazing when you realize that this roster was not that long ago.

 

What a turnaround!

[Prospector]

2 hours ago, Mark Vader said:

Amazing when you realize that this roster was not that long ago.

 

What a turnaround!

This

[BillsCelticsAngelsBama]

14 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

First, it's funny how a thread about the receivers inevitably turns into a thread about Allen, but it's to be expected. 

 

Second, I disagree with your opinion, but I really like your last sentence.  At the end of the day, all each of has is an opinion, and yours is that Allen doesn't have what it takes to be a successful NFL QB.   I think you're ignoring too much evidence to the contrary, but all that is is my opinion.   There's enough evidence to support your opinion, so I get that you can feel that way.   

 

So I assume you also think that Sam Darnold and Baker Mayfield don't have the goods, because they have performed demonstrably worse that Allen, and also that Kyler Murray is at least on your watch list, because his first season was not materially different from Allen's second.     I think that means you must be in the camp that says if a QB isn't in the top 10 by his second season, he doesn't have the goods.   So that would mean you wouldn't want Matt Stafford, Matt Ryan, Andrew Luck or Drew Brees, all of whom took more than two years to emerge.   Josh Allen's 2019 passing stats were better than Tom Brady's for each of the first three years that Brady started.   He didn't have the goods, either? 

 

So what is it, exactly that you think is missing from Allen's game, the thing that will keep him forever from becoming a top 10 quarterback, the thing that Stafford and Ryan and Brees and Brady showed they had in their first few years starting?   

 

Many fans fail to recognize that most successful NFL quarterbacks take multiple years, three, four, five years, to learn to compete at a high level in the NFL.   They fail to recognize that early success of Mitch Trubisky, Derek Carr, Carson Wentz, RGIII hasn't translated into consistent success.   

 

Bottom line for me is that it's too early to tell about Allen.   He improved through his rookie season, and he improved through his second season, so there's no good reason to conclude that he's done improving.  

 

 

Why would you assume that ??????? HORRIBLY WRONG, but if you want to use the straw man for your argument, more power to you.  Josh is one of the dumbest in game QB's I've seen. The bonehead plays are not because of youth, he just doesn't understand the position. Ummmm, also he is very, very, very inaccurate. Diggs may be asking for a trade by game 6 if Allen doesn't figure it out. If he could have sat behind a high football IQ QB for a couple years maybe he would understand the position better. But that won't help his accuracy. anything else you want to assume since you know me better than I know myself ?

[FireChans]

15 minutes ago, MOVALLEYRANDY said:

Why would you assume that ??????? HORRIBLY WRONG, but if you want to use the straw man for your argument, more power to you.  Josh is one of the dumbest in game QB's I've seen. The bonehead plays are not because of youth, he just doesn't understand the position. Ummmm, also he is very, very, very inaccurate. Diggs may be asking for a trade by game 6 if Allen doesn't figure it out. If he could have sat behind a high football IQ QB for a couple years maybe he would understand the position better. But that won't help his accuracy. anything else you want to assume since you know me better than I know myself ?

Hey now, it takes most QB’s four to five years to learn how to play QB. Except for Russell Wilson, Andrew Luck, Patrick Mahomes, Phillip Rivers, Dak Prescott, Peyton Manning, Deshaun Watson, Matt Ryan, etc etc. 

 

All I know is that if Watson and Mahomes are doing all this without knowing how to play QB yet, we are in big big trouble.

[BillsCelticsAngelsBama]

13 hours ago, eball said:

 

It's interesting you bring up Wentz.  While he unquestionably has put up better numbers than Josh so far at the same respective point in their careers, I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest he is a bigger risk than Josh right now because of the significant injury history.

 

I agree there is a lot of click-bait out there, but the "Josh Allen is/will be a bust" crowd was VERY vocal.

. I would take my chances with Wentz in a straight up deal for #17. You ?

[Punching Bag]

25 minutes ago, MOVALLEYRANDY said:

. I would take my chances with Wentz in a straight up deal for #17. You ?

 

Me? Absolutely no.

[BillsCelticsAngelsBama]

On 5/4/2020 at 6:59 AM, Shaw66 said:

 

 

Second, I disagree with your opinion, but I really like your last sentence.  At the end of the day, all each of has is an opinion, and yours is that Allen doesn't have what it takes to be a successful NFL QB.   I think you're ignoring too much evidence to the contrary, but all that is is my opinion.   There's enough evidence to support your opinion, so I get that you can feel that way.   

 

So I assume you also think that Sam Darnold and Baker Mayfield don't have the goods, because they have performed demonstrably worse that Allen, and also that Kyler Murray is at least on your watch list, because his first season was not materially different from Allen's second.     I think that means you must be in the camp that says if a QB isn't in the top 10 by his second season, he doesn't have the goods.   So that would mean you wouldn't want Matt Stafford, Matt Ryan, Andrew Luck or Drew Brees, all of whom took more than two years to emerge.   Josh Allen's 2019 passing stats were better than Tom Brady's for each of the first three years that Brady started.   He didn't have the goods, either? 

 

I just want to apologize for the smart a$$ remarks I have made over something so insignificant as our differing opinions on the abilities and future success of Josh. I have done this on other topics as well, so sorry to anyone I got personal with. I have been a fan, and a fan in attendance since 1965 (5 years old) and just want a Super Bowl before I die. Disagreeing and disagreeing a lot in this case, should never get personal. It's easy to be a keyboard bully. I initially had been attacked for not being on board with Josh after his play this season, so I responded in kind. But that is really no excuse for being an a$$. Just Win1B4IDIE !

Edited May 5, 2020 by MOVALLEYRANDY

[Shaw66]

12 hours ago, MOVALLEYRANDY said:

. I would take my chances with Wentz in a straight up deal for #17. You ?

I would want to watch a lot more film of Wentz before I agreed to that deal.  

 

I'd want to watch a lot of film on almost everyone.   There are only two guys who, subject to film study, I'd trade even up for:  Mahomes and Watson.    Darnold is maybe.   Mayfield, Lamar Jackson and Kyler Murray are nos, subject to some more study. 

 

My view about this is that these young guys have 15 seasons ahead of them, and the really great quarterbacks generally don't become really great until 6-7-8 years out.   Russell Wilson may be the best exception, but it took Manning and Brady and Rodgers and Brees years to become real masters of the game.   So the task with all these youngsters is to try to project  them 6-7 years into the future.   I can see Mahomes and Watson and Allen as being at that next level.   I don't see any of the others there, but admittedly this is real crystal ball stuff.  

[BillsCelticsAngelsBama]

1 minute ago, ScottLaw said:

I think your exaggerating a bit, but there are times where Josh does something unbelievably idiotic and I really struggle to be convinced that it’s just a result of youth..... considering those same boneheaded plays he still does now he was doing at Wyoming. It might just be who he is. 

I'VE ONLY BEEN ACCUSED OF EXAGGERATING  ONCE, (a day), IN MY ENTIRE LIFE. Agree with this post.

[Don Otreply]

It is a nice looking receivers group,  Nice upgrade at the #1 with Diggs,  who will take some pressure off Brown and Beasley, not to mention two good prospects to bring along that can catch anything thrown to them. With the two new guys we can trade/cut Foster and McKenzie, and still have more than enough talent to run jet sweeps and cover STs needs, we could as well potentially deal Roberts who is really only a KR, being that we already have the talent to fill that position on the roster as well. This all bodes well for the season. More catches = more passing yards that = more points which = more wins. All of which boost QB stats as well. 
 

Go Bills!!! 

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, MOVALLEYRANDY said:

I just want to apologize for the smart a$$ remarks I have made over something so insignificant as our differing opinions on the abilities and future success of Josh. I have done this on other topics as well, so sorry to anyone I got personal with. I have been a fan, and a fan in attendance since 1965 (5 years old) and just want a Super Bowl before I die. Disagreeing and disagreeing a lot in this case, should never get personal. It's easy to be a keyboard bully. I initially had been attacked for not being on board with Josh after his play this season, so I responded in kind. But that is really no excuse for being an a$$. Just Win1B4IDIE !

No need to apologize.   As I said in response to your post, you save yourself with this:  I hope I am wrong but I just don't see this guy as having the goods. 

 

We're all just fans, and all we have are opinions.  

 

I get kind of argumentative sometimes and in retrospect wish I hadn't.   One reason I come here is that I find that in the give and take some information perspectives on the team or players come out, and in the process I learn more.  Even though it's in the wrong thread, I love this discussion about who you would trade Allen for.  

[Ralonzo]

What is with this perception that only Allen makes boneheaded WTF throws in the NFL and that's why he sucks? How many of his plays from scrimmage grade as fails relative to the rest of the league?

 

Does anyone even watch other teams?