The Big Gamble: Hydroxychloroquine

[Cinga]

We'll never know due to HIPPA laws, but I would seriously be willing to bet that most, if not all of the Congress Critters trashing Trump, are also taking HCQ as a preventaive measure.

Almost all our Nurses and Doctors taking it on the front lines have already proven it's effectiveness

[shoshin]

7 minutes ago, Cinga said:

 

Almost all our Nurses and Doctors taking it on the front lines have already proven it's effectiveness

 

Uhh link? 

 

My wife works with only nurses and doctors on the front line of this in a major city. She knows of no one taking it or even considering doing so. They all think it's ridiculous. 

 

And for the record on its effectiveness, of the 40 nurses on her particular team, all of whom have treated and continue to treat Covid patients, only one has contracted it, and she got it in the first week from a patient who they didn't think had it and who wasn't wearing her PPE. 

 

Taking normal precautions makes the difference. Not HCQ. 

 

24 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

 

Did you even read Biden's tweet? The entire establishment media complex is afraid. Did you see Neil Cavuto's meltdown?

 

You're either blind or being intentionally obtuse. 

 

I see no fear. I just see them criticizing others. 

Edited May 20, 2020 by shoshin

[Reality Check]

It would seem that a few people here are under the impression that "science" is where studies are done, conclusions made, and the debate ends. This absurd. The beauty of science is that it is a method of logic and controlled experimentation in the hopes of drawing useful conclusions. The problem is that on a fifty year average, a large range of conclusions get thrown out the window due to innovation and technology. 100 authentic scientists, technologists, or doctors may agree in principle on some things, but they tend to disagree on research and studies all of the time, especially at the level of giving a prognosis on a specific problem. Science is in a constant state of revolution, and the people claiming on what is settled in terms of research are clinging to dogma. The fact is that there are a lot of poorly designed and implemented studies that produce incorrect results, and history has shone that people sometimes suffer for it. In a country full of pill poppers and sugar addicts, we need to reassess our overall methodology. Many doctors are just intermediaries for pharmaceutical distribution.

[Deranged Rhino]

17 minutes ago, shoshin said:

I see no fear. I just see them criticizing others. 

 

You're full of it: 

 

 

 

They're pushing FEAR non stop over this drug. You're either blind, or being intentionally obtuse. 

[Cinga]

24 minutes ago, shoshin said:

Uhh link? 

this is from 2 weeks ago

 

High demand for Plasma and RemdesivirCurrently, 55% of global physicians use Hydroxychloroquine, 24% use Tocilizumab, 21% use Remdesivir, 17% use Plasma

[Q-baby!]

53 minutes ago, BuffaloHokie13 said:

Trump and his doctor had multiple conversations and concluded that the benefits outweighed the risks in his case. I couldn't care less what you've heard, people should listen to their doctors when it comes to medication - Trump included.

Maybe they should focus on his weight? That’s probably a bigger danger for fatso! 

[shoshin]

37 minutes ago, Reality Check said:

26 minutes ago, Cinga said:

this is from 2 weeks ago

 

High demand for Plasma and RemdesivirCurrently, 55% of global physicians use Hydroxychloroquine, 24% use Tocilizumab, 21% use Remdesivir, 17% use Plasma

 

 

 

That link, even if it is a decent source, does not say what you said. You said almost all doctors and nurses are taking HCQ. Your link is about doctors proscribing HCQ. 

37 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

 

You're full of it: 

 

 

 

They're pushing FEAR non stop over this drug. You're either blind, or being intentionally obtuse. 

 

I see some guy on TV talking about not taking a drug that is unproven. He seems unhinged and not much of a source of anything.

 

Is there some gain to be made by anyone fearing HCQ, beyond just fearing taking an unproven drug? 

[Prickly Pete]

3 hours ago, BuffaloHokie13 said:

Why would anyone do this? Who exactly do you believe is getting their medical advice from Trump and only Trump?

 

I know, it's ***** ludicrous.

I can't believe that has been accepted by anyone as a legitimate protest. 

 

"Stupid people might just use it on their own, and die. It'd be Trump's fault too!"

 

 

[SectionC3]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

 

When a person hears about HCQ, the first question would then be: "how do I get some?"  The answer is: "you need to consult a doctor and get a prescription."  What the person decides to do from there (get it legally, get it illegally, steal/borrow it from someone, take fish tank cleaner, etc.) is on him/her. 

 

Now opining about using/injecting disinfectant was something that could have caused problems because they're readily available, but thankfully I haven't heard of anyone doing it.  And outside of that couple that took the fish tank cleaner, which appeared to be a murder, I haven't heard of people taking it and dying from it (again, HCQ, not chloroquine), much less in droves.

 

 

Yes there was anecdotal evidence but there is science behind it (zinc inactivates the virus while HCQ facilitates its entry into cells).  In the absence of any treatment at the time, and lack of widely-available treatment currently, it's still something I would take.  Again HCQ is not some new drug.  It has been around for 60+ years and hundreds of millions of people have taken it without a problem.  The histrionics over it are purely partisan and the lengths to slander it and Trump's reasons to push it are sad, but telling.

 

Shocker!  And was done without zinc.

 

I agree with just about all of this.  I appreciate that there is a cost/benefit to HCQ and, after careful medical consideration, for some the potential benefit may outweigh the potential cost.  I also appreciate the acknowledgment over the partisan histrionics.  My issue isn't with HCQ, it's the clinging to the lie about the efficacy of the drug.  You're right; Trump is partisan in his support for something on which he obviously got ahead of his skis, and the other side probably harps on it more than is necessary because it's an easy way to illustrate and to take issue with his BS. 

[Cinga]

9 minutes ago, Prickly Pete said:

 

I know, it's ***** ludicrous.

I can't believe that has been accepted by anyone as a legitimate protest. 

 

"Stupid people might just use it on their own, and die. It'd be Trump's fault too!"

 

 

 

Let's flip this thing around... With the media and of course politicians in a tizzy over this, many saying if you take this you will die. I wonder how many people, when prescribed this by their doctor, will be too afraid to take it now since the media said! And could now die because they DIDN'T take it?

[Deranged Rhino]

25 minutes ago, shoshin said:

 

 

I see some guy on TV talking about not taking a drug that is unproven. He seems unhinged and not much of a source of anything.

As I said: you’re being intentionally obtuse. It’s a bad look on you.  
 

26 minutes ago, shoshin said:

Is there some gain to be made by anyone fearing HCQ, beyond just fearing taking an unproven drug? 

“Unproven drug” — thats given daily to millions.  

 

As for what’s to gain? Nothing important. Just the 2020 election, increase in state power over the people, and control. 
 

No motive at all. 

[Doc Brown]

4 hours ago, Chef Jim said:

I had no idea he’s gone through all that. He’s a survivor. 

It makes me think he was genuinely concerned understanding how impressionable some people are no matter what side of the aisle they're on.

[Magox]

Whoever is saying definitively that it doesn't work is either misinformed or telling outright lies.

 

It has not yet been determined and what Cavuto did was highly irresponsible by saying "it will kill you" - "this will kill you"

 

He should be taken off the air temporarily or at the very least reprimanded. It is beyond crazy that he made such a reckless comment when the nothing definitive has come out and that his comment about exaggerating the risk was flat out wrong.  There are just as many positive reports as negative ones, you can find them online all over the place.  

 

 

Quote

 

In a letter to Gov. Doug Ducey of Arizona, the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS) presents a frequently updated table of studies that report results of treating COVID-19 with the anti-malaria drugs chloroquine (CQ) and hydroxychloroquine (HCQ, Plaquenil®).

To date, the total number of reported patients treated with HCQ, with or without zinc and the widely used antibiotic azithromycin, is 2,333, writes AAPS, in observational data from China, France, South Korea, Algeria, and the U.S. Of these, 2,137 or 91.6 percent improved clinically. There were 63 deaths, all but 11 in a single retrospective report from the Veterans Administration where the patients were severely ill.

The antiviral properties of these drugs have been studied since 2003. Particularly when combined with zinc, they hinder viral entry into cells and inhibit replication. They may also prevent overreaction by the immune system, which causes the cytokine storm responsible for much of the damage in severe cases, explains AAPS. HCQ is often very helpful in treating autoimmune diseases such as lupus and rheumatoid arthritis.

Additional benefits shown in some studies, AAPS states, is to decrease the number of days when a patient is contagious, reduce the need for ventilators, and shorten the time to clinical recovery.

Peer-reviewed studies published from January through April 20, 2020, provide clear and convincing evidence that HCQ may be beneficial in COVID-19, especially when used early, states AAPS. Unfortunately, although it is perfectly legal to prescribe drugs for new indications not on the label, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has recommended that CQ and HCQ should be used for COVID-19 only in hospitalized patients in the setting of a clinical study if available. Most states are making it difficult for physicians to prescribe or pharmacists to dispense these medications.

 

 

 

There are tons of anecdotal accounts

 

Like this one in India.

 

 

 

Quote

New study finds HCQ +AZ (or other antibiotic) significantly reduces time to viral clearance and hospital stay in moderate covid-19 patients compared to both conservative treatment and Lopinavir-ritonavir.

 

That was published in a credible site.  https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.13.20094193v1.full.pdf

 

Or this:

 

Quote

In a hydroxychloroquine prophylaxis study in India of 394 health care workers exposed to Covid-19, none tested COVID positive and none developed symptoms.

https://www.livemint.com/news/india/covid-treatment-hcq-shows-some-promise-finds-telangana-government-report/amp-11589957584026.html?__twitter_impression=true

 

 

The point is that there is plenty enough to grab on from both sides.  And those that are making definitive statements about how dangerous it is are flat out wrong.  

 

This is between a doctor and his patient, period!   

Edited May 20, 2020 by Magox

[shoshin]

8 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

“Unproven drug” — thats given daily to millions.  

 

Unproven related to Covid, yes. 

 

Proven related to malaria, of course. I have taken it myself. 

 

8 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

As for what’s to gain? Nothing important. Just the 2020 election, increase in state power over the people, and control. 
 

No motive at all. 

 

We're talking about the efficacy of a drug based on the evidence so far. HCQ isn't changing anyone's vote. 

[Doc Brown]

7 hours ago, Reality Check said:

Cavuto cares about one thing, and that is the stock market. 

He's a right wing capitalist on Fox News.  Sue him.  He's also a human being who's been through a lot and vilifying successful people is one thing I can't stand about the far left.

[Doc]

20 minutes ago, SectionC3 said:

I agree with just about all of this.  I appreciate that there is a cost/benefit to HCQ and, after careful medical consideration, for some the potential benefit may outweigh the potential cost.  I also appreciate the acknowledgment over the partisan histrionics.  My issue isn't with HCQ, it's the clinging to the lie about the efficacy of the drug.  You're right; Trump is partisan in his support for something on which he obviously got ahead of his skis, and the other side probably harps on it more than is necessary because it's an easy way to illustrate and to take issue with his BS. 

 

I don't think he got ahead of his skis on this.  I think he was alerted to something (again with science behind it) that was a known drug, that was safe enough to still be in use after 60+ years and used by tens of millions of people on a daily basis, and when the pandemic was scaring everyone and there was nothing else to treat it.  The reaction from the left suggested to me that they cared more about this pandemic killing people and making Trump look bad than trying anything (within reason) to combat this disease. 

[shoshin]

12 minutes ago, Magox said:

 

 

That was published in a credible site.  https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.13.20094193v1.full.pdf

 

 

 

This is the first even credible sounding study, and it was published 2 days ago. I haven't read it in detail yet. 

 

The AZ doctors letter was embarrassing. It was treated upthread. 

 

Edit: Read that study. Good stuff. It appears to work well in lessening symptoms by a few days when used with/out AZ (20 days with no drugs to 17). That would be welcome news to turn people around faster when they get it. The Michigan study will give even better data since it's much larger. 

Edited May 20, 2020 by shoshin

[Magox]

3 minutes ago, shoshin said:

 

This is the first even credible sounding study, and it was published 2 days ago. I haven't read it in detail yet. 

 

The AZ doctors letter was embarrassing. It was treated upthread. 

 

 

I know that you can be pretty stubborn even when confronted with reason and facts.  I didn't post that to say "Look, Hydroxycholoroquine works!"  

 

I have said from the very beginning that we don't know, that there are some anecdotal accounts confirming backing that up.  And there are some that say it doesn't.  All anecdotal, not in a controlled study.

 

And the AZ doctor one should be treated just the same way as the VA one.  Not conclusive but both with roughly the same sample sizes showing two different results.

 

The fact that you call it "embarrassing" just points to your biases.   

 

There is ample evidence on both sides to catch your coattails onto.  My hunch is that it helps people out prophylactically and in the early stages of contracting the virus, and most likely it's not something that is all that effective entirely on it's own.   And even then it wouldn't be something that is 100% effective.  Just that it assists on some level.  That's just based off studies and things that I have read on it.    That's what my intuition tells me.

 

I think once it reaches a certain stage then it has no purpose.  

 

Also, it will be interesting to see how the controlled studies are conducted.  Will it be with some of these combo's that are purported to work?  At what stage of the virus is it being tested?  What are the demographics?  Is it being studied on prophylactically?  

 

No one can definitively say one way or the other.  To say it's dangerous is flat out wrong.  It's a proven drug that has been used for many years and there are very few reported deaths as a direct result of the drug.   And to say that it doesn't work is not knowable at this point.  

 

 

[Reality Check]

18 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

He's a right wing capitalist on Fox News.  Sue him.  He's also a human being who's been through a lot and vilifying successful people is one thing I can't stand about the far left.

Why would I sue? Did I vilify him? Am I far left? His advertisers for his show are selling pills for everything. I simply commented that he knows who butters his toast. As for being through a lot, not relevant to me. We all have a story, and a story yet to be told.

[shoshin]

10 minutes ago, Magox said:

 

 

I know that you can be pretty stubborn even when confronted with reason and facts.  I didn't post that to say "Look, Hydroxycholoroquine works!"  

 

I noted that the Korea study was promising once I read it. You are so eager to attack. Why?

 

I treat the data points as they come. That study published 2 days ago. Believe it or not, in the last two days, I hadn't read it! 

 

Quote

And the AZ doctor one should be treated just the same way as the VA one.  Not conclusive but both with roughly the same sample sizes showing two different results.

 

The fact that you call it "embarrassing" just points to your biases.   

 

Read what they cited and get back to me. Good doctors wouldn't jump on a drug and write a letter based on the data they cited in that letter. The AZ docs rushed in. 

 

Quote

There is ample evidence on both sides to catch your coattails onto.  My hunch is that it helps people out prophylactically and in the early stages of contracting the virus, and most likely it's not something that is all that effective entirely on it's own.   And even then it wouldn't be something that is 100% effective.  Just that it assists on some level.  That's just based off studies and things that I have read on it.    That's what my intuition tells me.

 

Your hunches and intuition? I have no hunch or intuition about HCQ. I read the studies. 

 

 

 

Edited May 20, 2020 by shoshin

[Magox]

1 minute ago, shoshin said:

 

Did you not see that I noted that the Korea study was a promising study or did you just rush to attack? 

 

I treat the data points as they come. That study published 2 days ago. Believe it or not, in the last two days, I hadn't read it! 

 

 

Read what they cited and get back to me. Good doctors wouldn't jump on a drug and write a letter based on the data they cited in that letter. The AZ docs rushed in. 

 

 

Your hunches and intuition? I have no hunch or intuition about HCQ. I read the studies. 

 

 

 

 

 

You're quickly approaching the "not to take serious" group of this board.

[Doc]

2 minutes ago, Magox said:

You're quickly approaching the "not to take serious" group of this board.

 

He got there awhile ago when it comes to medicine.  It's a partisan fight for these guys.

[Chef Jim]

56 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

It makes me think he was genuinely concerned understanding how impressionable some people are no matter what side of the aisle they're on.

 

We cannot protect all the dumb people of the world.  

Edited May 20, 2020 by Chef Jim

[shoshin]

 

39 minutes ago, Magox said:

 

 

You're quickly approaching the "not to take serious" group of this board.

 

Are you personally upset at me because I blew up your assertions about hospitalizations? Who cares man? Lots of data and yours was an easy mistake to make. 

 

I'll be happy if HCQ pans out in any way. That Korea study is promising.

[Magox]

And this is why it is taking so long to come down to a definitive conclusion.

 

you will need to read on down the thread 

 

 

[Nanker]

Interesting to me is the fact that Jonas Salk went from injecting himself and his family, and a handful of others with his anti-polio vaccine, straight to field trials with 1.8 MILLION GRAMMAR SCHOOL CHILDREN. Now THAT was a clinical trial!

 

[shoshin]

42 minutes ago, Nanker said:

Interesting to me is the fact that Jonas Salk went from injecting himself and his family, and a handful of others with his anti-polio vaccine, straight to field trials with 1.8 MILLION GRAMMAR SCHOOL CHILDREN. Now THAT was a clinical trial!

 

 

Polio was a nightmare and people believed in vaccines enough to take the chance on them.

 

Now polio has been gone so long that people are willing to let polio comeback because vaccines are some kind of evil. 

 

Definitely strange. 

[MILFHUNTER#518]

Fredo took a much more dangerous and not FDA approved version of Hydroxychloroquine, quinine.

 

And, yes. KMac just effectively ended Fredo's fledgling career.

 

 

Edited May 20, 2020 by MILFHUNTER#518

[MILFHUNTER#518]

Apparently, Fredo's wife did an end around his doctor to get the Quinine.

 

This is RICH.

 

 

[B-Man]

 

AND YET POOLS WERE CLOSED EVERYWHERE, WITH NO SCIENCE BEHIND THE DECISION: 

 

‘No evidence’ COVID-19 can be spread in swimming pools, CDC says.

 

Apparently the only coronavirus countermeasure that can’t be deployed without peer-reviewed, double-blind studies involving thousands is hydroxychloroquine.

 

 

 

For everything else it’s just go with your gut and shout “Science!” at anyone who expresses doubts.

 

 

 

 

 

[shoshin]

3 hours ago, B-Man said:

 

AND YET POOLS WERE CLOSED EVERYWHERE, WITH NO SCIENCE BEHIND THE DECISION: 

 

‘No evidence’ COVID-19 can be spread in swimming pools, CDC says.

 

Apparently the only coronavirus countermeasure that can’t be deployed without peer-reviewed, double-blind studies involving thousands is hydroxychloroquine.

 

 

 

For everything else it’s just go with your gut and shout “Science!” at anyone who expresses doubts.

 

 

 

 

 

Coronaviruses don’t live in chlorinated water...not exactly a big scientific insight.
 

You probably don’t need a study to prove whether coronavirus survives a turpentine bath.  

[Koko78]

9 hours ago, Deranged Rhino said:

 

 

I'm not sure who is more senile, Biden or his idiot handlers/strategists.

[The Guy In Pants]

4 minutes ago, Koko78 said:

 

I'm not sure who is more senile, Biden or his idiot handlers/strategists.

 

It would appear that his senility is contagious. 

[Prickly Pete]

3 hours ago, MILFHUNTER#518 said:

Fredo took a much more dangerous and not FDA approved version of Hydroxychloroquine, quinine.

 

And, yes. KMac just effectively ended Fredo's fledgling career.

 

 

 

She is damn good. I'm a believer.

 

[SectionC3]

7 hours ago, Doc said:

 

I don't think he got ahead of his skis on this.  I think he was alerted to something (again with science behind it) that was a known drug, that was safe enough to still be in use after 60+ years and used by tens of millions of people on a daily basis, and when the pandemic was scaring everyone and there was nothing else to treat it.  The reaction from the left suggested to me that they cared more about this pandemic killing people and making Trump look bad than trying anything (within reason) to combat this disease. 

This is where we part ways.  The “ahead of his skis” could occur after initially referring to the drug, perhaps in having Jared buy millions of doses on spec, or perhaps in taking it as a prophylactic when there’s not thing to suggest that it’s a good idea for him. Bottom line: he took a shot on something unproven when he first took an interest in the pandemic.  There’s nothing wrong with that.  But then when it turned out that the efficacy of the drug is limited at best in this context, instead of admitting he chased a ghost he doubled down.  And that’s where he got himself in (even more) trouble. 

 

 

6 hours ago, shoshin said:

 

I noted that the Korea study was promising once I read it. You are so eager to attack. Why?

 

I treat the data points as they come. That study published 2 days ago. Believe it or not, in the last two days, I hadn't read it! 

 

 

Read what they cited and get back to me. Good doctors wouldn't jump on a drug and write a letter based on the data they cited in that letter. The AZ docs rushed in. 

 

 

Your hunches and intuition? I have no hunch or intuition about HCQ. I read the studies. 

 

 

 

The AZ docs are part of a group with some questionable theories.  Take it for what it’s worth. 

[Doc]

23 minutes ago, SectionC3 said:

This is where we part ways.  The “ahead of his skis” could occur after initially referring to the drug, perhaps in having Jared buy millions of doses on spec, or perhaps in taking it as a prophylactic when there’s not thing to suggest that it’s a good idea for him. Bottom line: he took a shot on something unproven when he first took an interest in the pandemic.  There’s nothing wrong with that.  But then when it turned out that the efficacy of the drug is limited at best in this context, instead of admitting he chased a ghost he doubled down.  And that’s where he got himself in (even more) trouble.

 

Not determined yet and again anecdotal evidence from those who have been using it says otherwise.  I have yet to read about a legitimate study where they used HCQ (and not CQ) and zinc together.

 

[Reality Check]

 

[shoshin]

9 hours ago, Reality Check said:

 

 

Not going to watch 7 minutes of Dershowitz or whatever that is but if he's just talking about legal precedent, he's correct that the Supreme Court ruled on this in a few cases. 

 

It's a rising issue because so many people are trying to bring back the oldies like the measles and TB...maybe get the polio band back together since they've dropped off the radar. 

 

It's impressive that it's only taken a decade or so for the once-nearly-eradicated diseases to get traction in the US. 

Edited May 21, 2020 by shoshin

[Reality Check]

2 hours ago, shoshin said:

 

Not going to watch 7 minutes of Dershowitz or whatever that is but if he's just talking about legal precedent, he's correct that the Supreme Court ruled on this in a few cases. 

 

It's a rising issue because so many people are trying to bring back the oldies like the measles and TB...maybe get the polio band back together since they've dropped off the radar. 

 

It's impressive that it's only taken a decade or so for the once-nearly-eradicated diseases to get traction in the US. 

 

[shoshin]

Graduation speech from yesterday given at the U of Arts and Sciences: 

 

Armed with the skill set comes from studies at the University of Sciences, many of you will become involved on the front line in this and future threats to public health. It’s not enough that this be some of your vocational pursuit. It must also be all of your civic duty.

 

Even before the pandemic, we were experiencing an ignorance and debasement of science. 

 

The most pressing questions of our time...were too often being solved with ideology and not evidence.   

 

You want to know the 5 words I’d like to hear more often from elected officials: “What does the data say?"

 

The pandemic has magnified the illogic of the status quo. 

 

Consider the career experience of the current United States Senate. Of the one- hundred “representatives,” only six report experience in science or medicine. Forty- nine have law degrees. There are just as many real estate agents and developers – five -  as there are health care professionals.

 

In a time when we need quick and correct action on matters of public health, only 5 percent of Senators have any experience working in it. It is no wonder when confronted with a pandemic our government “experts” turned to the experts in your fields for answers. 

 

How great it would be if the office holders were the experts!