Interview with Jordan Palmer on Allen offseason plans

[Hapless Bills Fan]

33 minutes ago, TroutDog said:

I wouldn’t argue this at all. He does appear to be confident but not all things are as they appear. Factor in who he played against previously and it would certainly make sense that he’d question himself now being at the highest level. 

 

I probably didn't write to convey what I meant clearly.  I didn't at all mean that Allen lacked overall confidence in himself as an NFL player or questioned his abilities to play at the highest level in the NFL (I don't think it's true, but if it is we're toast).

 

Perhaps a better word would be "self awareness" or "self assessment" vs "confidence".  Let me put it this way: assuming Allen is able to be honestly self-critical when watching his film (all accounts point to "yes"), he has to be aware that the ball doesn't always go exactly where he wants it to go during games.  That's multiplied for a deep throw in the game in which his throwing motion will be altered by pressure, the receiver's route will be altered by defense, the ball will be affected by wind.  He made some successful deep throws to Brown scattered throughout the season in which Allen trusted Brown to adjust on the ball and win the matchup with that DB.  But he didn't seem to trust Brown vs. every DB and Brown was the only WR he seemed to trust that way. 

[Punching Bag]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Not necessarily true.  Palmer leads a pretty sweet life right now.   He can live where he wants and bring guys in to him.  He can pick and choose who he works with.  He can pick and choose when and where he travels.  He doesn't have to negotiate treacherous office or locker room politics; he's not locked in to working with whichever QB the team contracts.  He isn't subject to being thrown out on his ear whenever ownership or the FO makes a coaching change.

 

He does have performance pressure in the sense that if players and their agents (and later teams) don't feel he adds value his market will dry up, but he has a lot more control over that then he would as an assistant coach on an NFL team.

 

That is most important part.  Front offices sometimes use 1st round picks on QBs who are not ready for NFL and may never be but the QB gets some of the blame (i.e. Wrong Josh) and usually the assistant coach is the one who gets dumped.

1 hour ago, TroutDog said:

My initial point was most folks seem to believe he was hitting all of the long balls last year and he actually didn’t do it very well or often. 

 

I think "most" is an exaggeration; maybe some more vocal posters said so.

[Gugny]

On 1/24/2020 at 2:36 PM, Hapless Bills Fan said:

Jordan talks about the way he works on deep throws with his clients.  He says part of it is mental, throwing to a spot rather than throwing to a guy.  He also talks about a technique he uses to teach the physical aspects, getting the ball up higher.

 

I feel like in this season's deep ball efforts Allen seemed to be thinking more and winging less.  I don't know if this is one of those, "it has to get worse before it gets better," situations, but it clearly got worse.

 

I'm certain no one coached Aaron Rodgers to throw his deep balls off of his back foot, just like I'm certain that no one coaches Mahomes to throw sidearm, across his body, to the opposite side of the field.

 

Sometimes, QBs just need to go out and ball.  My gut says to just let Josh use his cannon on the deep passes and stop trying to make him a finesse passer.

 

But perhaps last season was just step one in making him a better deep ball passer.  I have no clue.

 

If opposing Ds don't respect Allen's deep ball, it's going to be difficult for him to get to the next level.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

I feel like in this season's deep ball efforts Allen seemed to be thinking more and winging less.  I don't know if this is one of those, "it has to get worse before it gets better," situations, but it clearly got worse.

 

I'm certain no one coached Aaron Rodgers to throw his deep balls off of his back foot, just like I'm certain that no one coaches Mahomes to throw sidearm, across his body, to the opposite side of the field.

 

Sometimes, QBs just need to go out and ball.  My gut says to just let Josh use his cannon on the deep passes and stop trying to make him a finesse passer.

 

But perhaps last season was just step one in making him a better deep ball passer.  I have no clue.

 

If opposing Ds don't respect Allen's deep ball, it's going to be difficult for him to get to the next level.

 

Narrative.

 

See, I'm not at all sure that it's true Allen had a better deep ball last year or in college.  When I look at film I see the same problems that were there in college.  Someone posted here his # completions/# throws on the deepest throws last year and this and adjusted for number of games, it was actually about the same.

I do think part of the issue was rep count in practice - both Daboll and someone else- McD or Dorsey? acknowledged that the offense had been far more focused on building the short and intermediate passing game in training camp and the early season.  I believe that was more the focus of Allen's off-season work as well.

 

I'll put it out there, I can not believe (perhaps this is naive of me, given the decision making around Peterman etc but still) that Daboll would head into some of the games with the game plans he's put in if Allen were not hitting those throws like Money in practice.  If that's correct, a problem would be that Allen and the WR are doing something in practice that doesn't translate well to games.  I have speculation about that, but it's just speculation.

 

But yes, just like the sideline throws are to Lamar, it's now out there that the deep ball and especially the deep middle is a known gap in Allen's game and good defenses (of which we may face more next year) will continue to exploit this until the Bills start making them pay.

[Gugny]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

I'll put it out there, I can not believe (perhaps this is naive of me, given the decision making around Peterman etc but still) that Daboll would head into some of the games with the game plans he's put in if Allen were not hitting those throws like Money in practice.  If that's correct, a problem would be that Allen and the WR are doing something in practice that doesn't translate well to games.  I have speculation about that, but it's just speculation.

 

But yes, just like the sideline throws are to Lamar, it's now out there that the deep ball and especially the deep middle is a known gap in Allen's game and good defenses (of which we mayface more next year) will continue to exploit this until the Bills start making them pay.

 

I'd like to hear your speculation.

 

I have speculation, too.  Mine is that, yes - the focus this season HAS been on the short/intermediate throws.  That makes me happy.  Those are the passes that win games.  However, my speculation is that not enough time was taken to develop the long ball and Daboll irresponsibly/unnecessarily called deep passes in games (when the run game and the short/intermediate passing game were effectively moving the sticks).

 

My point is that there needs to be a balance as far as Allen's development and preparation and I don't think that balance is there.  And that is on the coaching staff (McDermott and Daboll).

 

In effect, Allen and the offense are being set up to fail (not purposely) and the Bills lost games (including a playoff game) because of it.

 

[Hampton Josh fan]

There is no doubt Josh will make great progress each year with this guy directing him. Remember Josh came from a small time level of competition. His progression has been excellent but limited by a lack of big play receivers and an O-line that was new and developing. This year I look for  a more aggressive passing attack and Josh to have more success with longer throws and accuracy. His leadership is awesome and he is a swashbuckler. What a great time to  be  a Bills fan. The future is bright. 

[ColoradoBills]

24 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Narrative.

 

See, I'm not at all sure that it's true Allen had a better deep ball last year or in college.  When I look at film I see the same problems that were there in college.  Someone posted here his # completions/# throws on the deepest throws last year and this and adjusted for number of games, it was actually about the same.

I do think part of the issue was rep count in practice - both Daboll and someone else- McD or Dorsey? acknowledged that the offense had been far more focused on building the short and intermediate passing game in training camp and the early season.  I believe that was more the focus of Allen's off-season work as well.

 

I'll put it out there, I can not believe (perhaps this is naive of me, given the decision making around Peterman etc but still) that Daboll would head into some of the games with the game plans he's put in if Allen were not hitting those throws like Money in practice.  If that's correct, a problem would be that Allen and the WR are doing something in practice that doesn't translate well to games.  I have speculation about that, but it's just speculation.

 

But yes, just like the sideline throws are to Lamar, it's now out there that the deep ball and especially the deep middle is a known gap in Allen's game and good defenses (of which we mayface more next year) will continue to exploit this until the Bills start making them pay.

 

I believe you are correct with your assumption.  They can make it work in practice but on game day it fails.

 

Speculations as to why could be many things but my belief is Josh gets "amped up" knowing it could be a big play and something

happens to cause these huge overthrows.

Maybe it's a physical thing that causes him to simply overthrow the receiver or his anticipation of the "big play" causes the clock in his

head to get accelerated.  I do believe it's mainly on Josh and he knows it, which if true puts more pressure on himself.

 

If any of it has to do with not wanting a turnover (interception) that should not come into play for him.  A 40-50 yard pass down field picked off

is as good as a punt (especially on 3rd down) if the WR knows to get a touch on the DB stopping any return.

 

Either way he has to get a little more air under the ball.

[TigerJ]

On 1/24/2020 at 2:36 PM, Hapless Bills Fan said:

Palmer says he has his clients pre-draft work with a "mental conditioning coach" Trevor Moawad on "neutral thinking": " Neutral thinking is detaching from everything except for facts of what's happening. "OK, we're down 10. Here's what we need to do." Or, "It's raining. Here's what I need to do. Too many people get into negative thinking. "Oh, man, we're down 10 again." Or people get down 10 and they go, "We've got them right where we want them. No, we're all good. It'll be it'll be fine. What needs to happen? We're down 10, we need to get a stop on defense, we need to drive down the field, everyone needs to execute and go."

 

This interests me because it seems very tied in with some of the training I've had, as an emergency responder and as pilot.  It's not couched in the same language, but essentially it's very much about being focused in the present moment - you can't waste time second guessing or kicking yourself about how you got there, you can't be in denial about the situation you're really in, you can't waste time thinking too broadly about the situation.  It's all define the problem, work the problem, prioritize, most important aspect is the Next Two Things.
 

There is different terminology, but this technique is taught in many areas.  It is taught, for instance in the social work universe as a means with dealing with troubled children.  They would call it, "being in the moment."  They teach it to the kids as well.  Essentially it is a way of reminding oneself to clear the mind of distracting thoughts and focus on the things that need attention.

[CincyBillsFan]

I may be naive but deep ball success is as much on the receiver as it is the QB.  There are a few deep throw routes that I see frequently in the college & pro game:

 

*  The classic over the shoulder catch of a straight line shot.  You actually don't see this that much in the pro game.  These are the ones that Allen struggled with this year.

 

*  The deep throw where the receiver tracks down and snags the ball.  I put this on our receivers more then Allen.  On a couple of deep shots to Foster it seemed like if he had just broke off his straight line route to track the ball it would have been a great throw.  This is the most common deep ball you see thrown in the NFL.  See KC for the best examples.

 

*  The "50/50" deep shot where the receiver goes up and gets the ball.  Bill's receivers were awful with this kind of deep shot.  I'm thinking of the pass that Brown missed against Denver and the one Foster missed against Baltimore. 

 

Upgrade the receivers and you will make Allen a better long ball thrower. 

 

 

 

 

 

[3rdand12]

On 1/24/2020 at 5:38 PM, LABILLBACKER said:

Josh's deep throws are easily fixable. It's called throw the damn ball HIGHER dude. Not rocket science. 

actually, it is.  : )

and yes he will get that part of his game dialed in

[Mr. Wonderful]

On 1/24/2020 at 3:14 PM, uticaclub said:

Josh Allen pays Jordan Palmer 1000s of dollars to be his trainer, he's not going to give a full analysis. 

 

Not sure about full analysis but certainly biased

[formerlyofCtown]

On 1/24/2020 at 3:09 PM, ColoradoBills said:

 

My god I hope that happens.  It would change everything on how opposing D's would have to handle the Bills offense.

It would make us a legit SB favorite I believe.

[GaryPinC]

On 1/24/2020 at 11:17 PM, Shaw66 said:

Yes, he took serious strides.  I'm not disappointed, but I expected more.  I expected he would be a top-20 passer.  

I'm a bit disappointed, but it's with his consistency.  He clearly made great strides in his pre-snap reads, though still missing hot reads sometimes.  He struggled with understanding Daboll's play designs, and having the patience to let them develop.  But at times he was right on getting the ball in anticipation of the open breaking receiver.

My take is that he should take his biggest steps forward this year, as expected, but he will maddeningly still struggle with his consistency. 

His lack of past development, plus the fact that his whole life was small town football where hero ball was all he did will continue to slow his consistency.

He seems to have the drive to overcome all this but overcoming your ingrained past is not a given for any player so that's definitely my worry.

His lack of 300 yard passing games I think is a combo of conservative game plans, lack of receiving talent and Allen's consistency.

[CincyBillsFan]

4 hours ago, GaryPinC said:

I'm a bit disappointed, but it's with his consistency.  He clearly made great strides in his pre-snap reads, though still missing hot reads sometimes.  He struggled with understanding Daboll's play designs, and having the patience to let them develop.  But at times he was right on getting the ball in anticipation of the open breaking receiver.

My take is that he should take his biggest steps forward this year, as expected, but he will maddeningly still struggle with his consistency. 

His lack of past development, plus the fact that his whole life was small town football where hero ball was all he did will continue to slow his consistency.

He seems to have the drive to overcome all this but overcoming your ingrained past is not a given for any player so that's definitely my worry.

His lack of 300 yard passing games I think is a combo of conservative game plans, lack of receiving talent and Allen's consistency.

 

I think the biggest reason for Allen's lack of a 300 yard passing game this season were the circumstances of the games being played. 

 

In only 1 game did the Bills lose by more then one score and even in that game (Eagles) they were only down 17 - 13 late in the 3rd period.  And given the wind conditions that day NO QB was going to throw for 300 yards even against a prevent defense. 

 

From what I can see a lot of 300 yard passing games are the direct result of a team down big desperately trying to get back into the game.  These big yardage games often require the assistance of a prevent defense to make it happen.  By throwing "check down" passes under the coverage QB's can easily roll up 100 - 200 yards passing in the 3rd & 4th quarters.  There's a reason that the correlation between passing for 300 yards and WINNING the game is so poor. 

 

 

 

 

[Buffaloed in Pa]

Hate the floating deep balls. He has the arm strenght. That others dont. Like Mahomes. Let it rip. See him hit him.  Over coaching on this. 

[NoHuddleKelly12]

On 1/24/2020 at 3:14 PM, uticaclub said:

Josh Allen pays Jordan Palmer 1000s of dollars to be his trainer, he's not going to give a full analysis. 

If Palmer were “down” on Allen IRL, then I’d wager that he would just keep his mouth shut entirely and claim confidentiality/client privacy as to methods, results etc. on the topic—instead of waxing poetic the way he is.  After all, he’s in business also, to get additional clients, and if he claims success where none can be seen/verified over the span of time said clients are working with him, then why would he bother to highlight his involvement with a ‘busting’ candidate? Just thinking out loud here.

[Captain Hindsight]

The part about staying positive and in the moment is so critical. I learned that as a lifeguard in HS. 

 

The most important thing is to stay calm when things are going crazy around you. If you can control that, you can be far more effective in whatever you are trying to do. I see that in Josh so often. Nothing phases him

On 1/25/2020 at 11:13 AM, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Not necessarily true.  Palmer leads a pretty sweet life right now.   He can live where he wants and bring guys in to him.  He can pick and choose who he works with.  He can pick and choose when and where he travels.  He doesn't have to negotiate treacherous office or locker room politics; he's not locked in to working with whichever QB the team contracts.  He isn't subject to being thrown out on his ear whenever ownership or the FO makes a coaching change.

 

He does have performance pressure in the sense that if players and their agents (and later teams) don't feel he adds value his market will dry up, but he has a lot more control over that then he would as an assistant coach on an NFL team.

 

 

I would love to have Jordan's job. If I were him, I'd never give it 

[Jerome007]

Of course Palmer is gonna be super positive of his paying client, BUT he can choose what are the positive things he says, so they are not less true. He's highlighting specific points.

 

Is he super good at his job, I don't know, but LOL @ people thinking he'd get paid more on a team's staff. HC and OC are paid well, but a QB coach on a team will not be paid as much as he is now if he attracts clients. And he chooses where he lives, who he hires, what are his hours, etc. He is his own boss. 

 

No doubt that with his rocket arm, if Josh improves his deep throws the offense takes a GIANT leap forward. It would open up a lot of the field, give more space to Singletarry and Beasly, reduces all out blitzes, etc.

[JAMIEBUF12]

Palmer please teach him to tuck and hold the ball if he is on designed running plays

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 minute ago, JAMIEBUF12 said:

Palmer please teach him to tuck and hold the ball if he is on designed running plays

 

It's on the film that our RB coach is already working on that with Josh and improvement can be seen since week 10 (Cleveland).  You can see on film when he is running and being tackled he now puts the ball in that slanted "claw" grip the Bills RB coach teaches and tries to wrap his left arm over it.

 

There are three remaining problem areas where I'm not sure what one does:

1) When Josh is running and extends the ball going for the 1st down or the TD.  Most of these he has been ruled down before the ball comes out but it's only a matter of time before he's not, or where they don't have conclusive evidence to overturn a fumble ruled on the field.

2) When Josh is transitioning from throwing to running or vice versa, and is holding the ball in a throwing grip.  The ball is vulnerable to the kind of hit Mercilus put on it at that point - at the opposite end and on the opposite side to the QB's grip.  Not sure what the answer is - can he drill more to keep two hands on the ball until he actually raises it to throw?  make quicker decisions to run/throw would probably be good, but we also want him to be more patient about waiting for receivers to come open before he just takes off.

3) Strip sacks.  Pretty much every QB will fumble if he's blindside hit when he's about to throw.  Stop asking rookie or young TE to block pro-bowl DE or OLBs is my answer.  That's a "plan where you lose your hat" - a Bad Plan.