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Jerry Jabber

Did the lack of production from Jones/Foster/Kroft hamper Daboll & the offense?

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15 minutes ago, Fan in Chicago said:

Sure. Dump on these guys to cover up for an inaccurate QB. 

 

 

Sure.  Dump on the QB to cover up for the poor blocking.  :)

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1 hour ago, Jerry Jabber said:

While the offense underperformed this season, was it mainly due to the surprisingly lack of production from Zay Jones/Robert Foster/Tyler Kroft who were expected to have big roles in the offense, Daboll's play calling or a combination of the two? I'm sure the coaches were expecting Zay to be their #2 WR, Foster to be their deep threat and Kroft to be that underneath guy that could move the chains.

Lotta drops from that group....Knox also, unfortunately.

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20 minutes ago, Fan in Chicago said:

Sure. Dump on these guys to cover up for an inaccurate QB.

 

Carr is inaccurate?

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1 hour ago, Jerry Jabber said:

While the offense underperformed this season, was it mainly due to the surprisingly lack of production from Zay Jones/Robert Foster/Tyler Kroft who were expected to have big roles in the offense, Daboll's play calling or a combination of the two? I'm sure the coaches were expecting Zay to be their #2 WR, Foster to be their deep threat and Kroft to be that underneath guy that could move the chains.

There were obvious weaknesses on offense and every player owns some of that.  If you are asking which weakness had the greater impact on our production this year...

1. TE and edge blocking on pass plays

2.  Not having a #1 receiver

3.  Getting a lead and going all in conservative 

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2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think there's no question.  They felt they were bringing in a vet TE who could block and produce in the passing game, and they were expecting Zay Jones in his 3rd year (2nd in the offense) to take a big step.  Duke Williams was the "almost as good as a draft pick" dark horse.

 

When Zay didn't work out, they were hoping Duke Williams could step in but after 3 games decided he needed to go back to the PS and marinate some more.

 

This is one of my big frustrations with Beane and McDermott.  It's not that they aren't trying to improve the offense, it's just that their judgement on who to choose to achieve this seem repeatedly poor.  I know Beane didn't draft Jones, but he certainly was in on the decision to "count him in" and not make more moves after his poor rookie year and NFI from the off-season glass breaking incident.

 

This is what I can recall of our WR and TE additions:
 

2017

Zay Jones (2nd round, traded up for him)

Anquan Boldin (<2 weeks)
Kelvin Benjamin (traded 3rd round pick for him)
Jordan Matthews (traded Darby for him + 3rd round pick)

Andre Holmes (2 yr of 3 yr, $6.5M contract)

Deonte Thompson (had career year, but not brought back)
2018
Ray-ray McCloud (6th round pick - still on PS)
Austin Proehl (7th round pick)
Corey Coleman (traded 2020 7th round pick for him and assumed $3.5M guaranteed salary for <1 month)
Jeremy Kerley (cut before 2nd game)

Terrelle Pryor (lasted 2 weeks)

Deonte Thompson (re-signed after cut by Boys)
Jason Croom (UDFA on PS in 2017, IR in 2019)
Logan Thomas (resigned as ERFA from 2016)
2019

John Brown (FA, 3 yr $27M contract, $10.1M guaranteed)
Cole Beasley (FA, 4 yr $29M contract, $10.7M guaranteed
Tyler Kroft (FA, 3 yr, $18.57M contract with $8.3 guaranteed)
Lee Smith (FA, 3 yr, $9M contract with $4.9M guaranteed)
Dawson Knox (3rd round pick)
Tommy Sweeney (7th round pick)
Duke Williams (FA, from CFL)

 

Glass half full:  ALL of the 2019 acquisitions look much much better than the previous 2 years

 

Glass half empty: I "get it" that they were shopping on a strict budget in 2017 and 2018, but you'd like to get a bit more production and quality out of a high 2nd round pick, a 3rd round pick, a trade of a former 2nd round DB who can play, two late round picks, acquiring a $3.5M guaranteed salary, and a vet signing (Boldin).  Not to mention some UDFA.  The much maligned Buddy Nix and Doug Whaley managed to scrape up more talent from a bunch of no-namer late round/UDFA guys in Stevie Johnson, David Nelson, Donald Jones etc.   In hindsight, Deonte Thompson was probably the best add of a bad lot in 2018, and that's pretty sad.  It's like they just weren't putting the hosses into scouting and evaluation, it was like "I've heard of him, he was drafted high, Bring Him In!"

 

I am hoping to be shown that we truly can evaluate offensive talent this off-season.

 

 

I agree 100% percent with you assessment. It seems McBeane has been good at identifying defensive players for the scheme the Bills run, but have really struggled at finding good WR/TE's.  Now that the Bills have cleared up their salary cap situation, have about $90M in cap space along with nine draft picks, we'll see better WR's/TE's coming in. If not, then we really have to start questioning McBeane's personnel/decision making?

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3 minutes ago, Pokebball said:

There were obvious weaknesses on offense and every player owns some of that.  If you are asking which weakness had the greater impact on our production this year...

1. TE and edge blocking on pass plays

2.  Not having a #1 receiver

3.  Getting a lead and going all in conservative 

 

In a surprising development, I have a somewhat different list :beer:

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I would say there was a lack of production from a number of people, not just those 3. When your offensive unit gets little to no production from Foster/Jones(Then traded)/Kroft/DiMarco/Gore(2nd half of the year)/Smith/Duke/Knox/McKenzie then the unit is going to suffer. 

 

If he was relying on these people to help carry the offense then that's on him. Smith and DiMarco provide little to nothing of use. Kroft only has 1 year with more than 129 yards receiving in his 5 year career, McKenzie is similar in his 3 year career. Knox was a raw, but talented, rookie, Duke had no prior NFL experience and Gore was a 36 year old RB that hit a wall only half way through the year. Foster & Jones had to be the biggest disappointments for Duh!boll.

 

Most of the offense fell on Brown, Beasley, Allen & Singletary, who missed 4 1/2 games this year and then was under used in the other 12 1/2(Including the Texans game). They need better playmakers next year to help their young QB out and to be able to take the next step. They need to stop using almost all their 1st round picks on defense, if the offense is going to take a leap forward.

 

Edited by LOVEMESOMEBILLS
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They did not help. 
 

I am not sure how much they hurt.  I am a little fixated on Derrick Henry the last couple of weeks.  If you have a line and a player performing at that level, I am not sure if the performance of a WR#3 like jones or a WR4 like foster is really a critical missing pieces though. 

I don;t now if a QB in his second season and his first full season as a starter is likely to be the best at involving 5 or 6 NFL average playmakers without having  single player the Defense needs to key on.  Last year Mahomes did very well with guys like this handling most of the production

image.thumb.png.1b46c041e8ad9aab0c0f8fae06693f55.png

I think Maybe if we had Hill and Kelce, instead of Brown and Croft, no one would worry so much about zay jones or robert foster. image.thumb.png.bbbcf7282d8e59faa808d2a3e74b81f3.png

Looking at the Bills this season, it seems like maybe the production shortfall is on the top, not the bottom of the WR corp

 

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Kroft is the only one who I could see being an excuse. But he was hurt pretty early on and Knox may have turned out to be better than a healthy Kroft. So a big fat NO. 

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15 minutes ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said:

 

Most of the offense fell on Brown, Beasley, Allen & Singletary, who missed 4 1/2 games this year and then was under used in the other 12 1/2(Including the Texans game). They need better playmakers next year to help their young QB out and to be able to take the next step. They need to stop using almost all their 1st round picks on defense, if the offense is going to take a leap forward.

 

Agree 100%

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41 minutes ago, Jerry Jabber said:

I agree. I don't know if he was disgruntled with the Bills bringing in John Brown and Cole Beasley in the offseason or something else? But how did Foster go from 27 catches for 541 yards and 3 TD's in 2018 to 3 catches for 64 yards and 0 TDs in 2019? 

Very easily. He went from 44 targets to 18 targets. The balls that could have been thrown to him were thrown to someone else - namely Brown, Beasley, Knox, McK, Williams, etc. 

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Ill answer a different way, when your #2 WR is Issah McKenzie, the offense overall is in trouble.  And that's not meant to be a knock on McKenzie either.

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14 minutes ago, ngbills said:

Very easily. He went from 44 targets to 18 targets. The balls that could have been thrown to him were thrown to someone else - namely Brown, Beasley, Knox, McK, Williams, etc. 

That's one way of looking at it. Another would be is Foster did not run the correct route which led to blown plays, not being able to beat the defender in one-on-one as well as drops. If those things happen (which they did), would you continue to throw it to someone who is proving to be unreliable or throw it to someone that is more reliable and has a greater chance of making the reception?

2 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

Ill answer a different way, when your #2 WR is Issah McKenzie, the offense overall is in trouble.  And that's not meant to be a knock on McKenzie either.

I agree with that. I think going into the season, the Bills were hoping for Brown and Jones to be their top two WR's, with Beasley in the slot and Foster their burner. When their plans did not work, they had to go with gadget players like McKenzie and Roberts.

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As already stated, the answer is, YES.

 

Along with a stream of untimely dropped passes by others throughout the season. Jmo. 

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2 hours ago, Jerry Jabber said:

While the offense underperformed this season, was it mainly due to the surprisingly lack of production from Zay Jones/Robert Foster/Tyler Kroft who were expected to have big roles in the offense, Daboll's play calling or a combination of the two? I'm sure the coaches were expecting Zay to be their #2 WR, Foster to be their deep threat and Kroft to be that underneath guy that could move the chains.

 

I'll say it again and Mike in HH will agree with me ......    Bob Foster isn't that good.  He's maybe JAG. 

IMO the only reason he looked "good" was because his main competition at WR was  Zay Jones (who by the way led the team in yards) and caught 4 deep passes from Josh. 

 

Kroft ... Only started in 3 games and only played in 11 games.  You can't even speculate what if when the guy wasn't a "main starter"

 

It's kind of funny how Josh was more accurate on his deep passes with Jones and Foster last year and somehow he sucked this year. 

Edited by SlimShady'sGhost
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1 hour ago, Chandler#81 said:

Who? Who? Who?

 

When you’re not on the field, can you produce?

When a man is alone in the woods, is he still wrong?

Daboll made his bed and now he'll have to lie in it. He chose to limit Singletary. He chose to sit Duke & TJ all year for Gore and Foster. You live and die with the decisions you make. Yes he was limited on weapons but he still made stupid decisions on play calling. This team with a little more innovation could've produced more than 19 pts per game. Our lack of offense probably forces McD to crawl into his defensive conservative shell. 

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7 minutes ago, SlimShady'sGhost said:

 

I'll say it again and Mile in HH will agree with me ......    Bob Foster isn't that good.  He's maybe JAG. 

IMO the only reason he looked "good" was because his main competition at WR was  Zay Jones (who by the way led the team in yards) and caught 4 deep passes from Josh. 

 

Kroft ... Only started in 3 games and only played in 11 games.  You can't even speculate what if when the guy wasn't a "main starter"

 

It's kind of funny how Josh was more accurate on his deep passes with Jones and Foster last year and somehow he sucked this year. 

 

There's been alot made of playing Foster over Williams for the most part this season, some reasons have been mentioned in a number of places, ST play etc.

 

One reason though that don't recall seeing mentioned much could be:

 

You had a relatively inexperienced QB in Allen, You've brought in two new WR's this year in Brown and Beas plus new TE, new O-line, there was what 7 new starting players on offense to start the season.  Thinking may have been the one player that Allen seemed to have connected with well from 2018 was Foster so they were going to keep him out there and give him alot of time to re-capture what they had the year prior.   Why it didn't happen, who knows, kind of wonder if the issue is Foster tends to not handle adversary very well?

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9 minutes ago, SlimShady'sGhost said:

 

I'll say it again and Mile in HH will agree with me ......    Bob Foster isn't that good.  He's maybe JAG. 

IMO the only reason he looked "good" was because his main competition at WR was  Zay Jones (who by the way led the team in yards) and caught 4 deep passes from Josh. 

 

Kroft ... Only started in 3 games and only played in 11 games.  You can't even speculate what if when the guy wasn't a "main starter"

 

It's kind of funny how Josh was more accurate on his deep passes with Jones and Foster last year and somehow he sucked this year. 

Agree about Foster. In 2018, I wasn't sure why the Bills coaches kept him on the team as he was ineffective in the first half of the season, then he had a good second half of the season. This season, he was terrible, plain and simple! People have mentioned how complexed Daboll's system is and that the terminology changes on a weekly basis. If that is the case, and other starters on offense were able to keep up, then it's another reason to let Foster go as it would appear he does not have the football IQ required.

 

"It's kind of funny how Josh was more accurate on his deep passes with Jones and Foster last year and somehow he sucked this year." Good points. Josh improved on his short to intermediate passes, but sucked on deep passes. Was Josh more worried about throwing INT's that he threw the ball further so only the WR had a chance at it, vice giving the WR a 50/50 ball vs the DB?

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1 hour ago, John from Riverside said:

The Robert Foster thing I will never understand...that guy looked like a breakout player the 2nd half of the year before

 

 

...EXACTLY....thought he heeded McDermott's wake up call and was ready to go......at the same time, his use was inconsistent and so was he when he played......oft injured Kroft was a gap filler IMO....if McBeane knew he'd land Knox AND Sweeney, Kroft signing never happens......

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Just now, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

 

...EXACTLY....thought he heeded McDermott's wake up call and was ready to go......at the same time, his use was inconsistent and so was he when he played......oft injured Kroft was a gap filler IMO....if McBeane knew he'd land Knox AND Sweeney, Kroft signing never happens......

I would like to think that the use of Foster was determined on how he was doing in practice....but I dont know because we kept hearing that Duke was being a beast in practice.

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6 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

I would like to think that the use of Foster was determined on how he was doing in practice....but I dont know because we kept hearing that Duke was being a beast in practice.

 

..interesting......IMO, Duke seemed to confirm that with the WHOPPING three games he played.....still go back to a McBeane quote (paraphrased), "the signing of Duke Williams made drafting a WR early not a top priority".....could this be a Daboll issue then?.............

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1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

2018
Ray-ray McCloud (6th round pick - still on PS)
Austin Proehl (7th round pick)
Corey Coleman (traded 2020 7th round pick for him and assumed $3.5M guaranteed salary for <1 month)
Jeremy Kerley (cut before 2nd game)

Terrelle Pryor (lasted 2 weeks)

Deonte Thompson (re-signed after cut by Boys)
Jason Croom (UDFA on PS in 2017, IR in 2019)
Logan Thomas (resigned as ERFA from 2016)

I think McKenzie should be on this list right?  I think that would probably be the best move by Beane prior to this year.  I would not have played Yeldon over Gore, but still feel we need an upgrade over both them.

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2 minutes ago, YattaOkasan said:

I think McKenzie should be on this list right?  I think that would probably be the best move by Beane prior to this year.  I would not have played Yeldon over Gore, but still feel we need an upgrade over both them.


Yes, good catch on McKensie

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