The fair catch, that wasn't.

[mannc]

25 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

I have seriously seen this happen multiple times in other games. It is common. Trust me.

Apparently the referee must have missed those other multiple times because in real time he believed it was a live football.  If it happens all the time, then why did he do that?  Just to mess with the Texans?

[4merper4mer]

1 minute ago, dave mcbride said:

That is a good question. I think the hands to the face rule called against Ford was terrible because it happens all of the time in the o-line/d-line scrum. It has to be a clear grab, head slap, or neck push. He did none of that. It cost the Bills a possession. PI rules are INCREDIBLY flexible. 
 

i just think the intent on this was so completely clear, and given the league’s stated intent to reduce kick returns given that they are by far and away the most dangerous plays in the game, you use your freaking brain and call that a touchback.

The rule intent and action.  He didn't kneel.  That's the rule.

 

Wrt Ford I found it to be a bad call because I didn't think Ford's block was "forcible".  That said, forcible is a judgement call and the ref made his call.  He judged differently than I would have but didn't ignore the rule.  You might be talking about a different pkay but still a judgement.

[Scott7975]

2 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

But I think people are correct that it was an illegal forward pass,  in which case it probably was a dead ball, so no TD.  It's either a touchback with a half the distance to the goal line penalty or a safety.  

 

Whatever, it wasn't a touchback. 

 

It's the give-every-kid-a-trophy culture.  We don't want to punish him for making an innocent mistake, he might feel bad. 

 

Yeah I think so too.  Safety IMO.

[JGMcD2]

1 hour ago, dave mcbride said:

It’s ambiguous, but a rule-of-reason interpretation would find that that amounted to a touchback. Kneeling isn’t required, as far as I can tell.

 

If a ball gets to the end zone and touches the ground, it’s an automatic touchback. There’s no need for a player to pick it up and kneel, or even catch a ball if it’s headed for the end zone and they don’t intend to return it.

This is a small time saver, but the goal is to blow a play dead earlier so that unnecessary collisions don’t happen. Under the previous rules, a player could take their time gathering a ball and kneeling while the coverage team and return team blockers still careened toward each other for no reason.

The first sentence says it all there... I’m not sure where this snipit is from but it actually supports the argument of the “nutty” Bills fans so I’d like to keep this on the record. 
 

Let’s break it down!

 

If the ball reaches the end zone and touches the ground it’s an automatic touchback. That would imply the player catching it and dropping it... BUT if you continue to read it gives more context and clarity! 
 

1) There is no need for the player to even catch the ball if they don’t intend to return it 

 

The next portion is critical in interpreting “the ball reaching the end zone and touching the ground it’s an automatic touchback”

 

2) There’s no need for the player to pick up the ball and kneel the football. This needs to be coupled with the actual rule that once the ball hits the end zone on the kick off... there is no need for the player to pick it up and kneel it because it’s already dead. 
 

There is no example of a player catching the football and then dropping it on the ground without signaling fair catch, taking a knee OR both. Your example above is strictly applied to the ball reaching the end zone in the air on the kickoff and then hitting the ground in the end zone... nothing else. It’s detailing that constitutes a dead ball and the player need not touch it to confirm a dead ball. 

[GoBills808]

1 hour ago, dave mcbride said:

I have seriously seen this happen multiple times in other games. It is common. Trust me.

Where? I haven’t. I always see then down it w/ a knee.

[Rochesterfan]

3 hours ago, Kmart128 said:

This is incorrect. You are thinking of the Jets and Bills kick off. That wouldnt be a touchback today. On kickoffs if the ball lands in the field of play and rolls into endzone its still considered a live ball. Its like an onside kick. However if ball travels the entire way into the air and land into the endzone then its a automatic touchback. In that Bills and Jets play the ball landed in play and rolled into the endzone. Mile Gillislee tracked it down but didnt recover it. Had he... he would have been tackled and gotten a safety but since he let it go the Jets got a TD instead.

 

Sorry, but the rules changed with the new kickoff rules.  
 

If the ball on a kickoff touches the ground in the end zone without being touched - it is now a touchback regardless of where it hit the ground first.  It can hit at the 10 and bounce into the end zone and it is a touchback - like a punt.  The Bills/Jets kickoff would be a touchback today.  They updated the rule.  The ball is ruled dead the moment it hits the ground in the end zone.

 

In the original Bills/Jets game because no Bill touched it outside of the end zone - if Gillislee had recovered it in the end zone - it would have been a touchback not a safety.  It would only have been a safety if aBills player muffed the kickoff in the field of play and the ensuing momentum put the ball in the end zone where a Bills player would have recovered it.

 

I would love to see a collection of every touchback this season - because I swear I have seen the exact same thing several times - guy catches the ball and just tosses it to the ref.  It is nearly impossible to look for touchbacks though because it is such a boring play.  
 

I assumed because they do not show much of the kickoffs - on these deep kicks if they signal the refs and catch it - the play was over, but what I do not know is if they talked about that.  The referee on the field obviously thought it was a live ball - so he did not believe it was giving up, but as with all rule changes - maybe he was living in the past for a second.  

Edited January 5, 2020 by Rochesterfan

[NoSaint]

1 hour ago, pennstate10 said:

So, clearly, the official who signaled  TD on the play was applying the rules to the letter. Can we all agree on that?

 

then, he wusses out a let himself be overruled. 

 

To compund the problem, McD didn't challenge the ruling. This is critical.  You can bet that over coaches-Bellicheck for instance- who know the rules back and forwards would have run on the field, complained long and loudly.

 

by the way, I thought I saw a flag on the field after this play, and thought maybe OBrien was going to get an unsportsmanlike or something. Did they just pick this up?

as a scoring play AND turnover McD can’t

 

if arguing the letter of the rules you gotta know them 

[pennstate10]

2 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

as a scoring play AND turnover McD can’t

 

if arguing the letter of the rules you gotta know them 

yeah, but he can certainly throw a challenge flag, get the refs attention, be told he can’t challenge it. 
 

because as a scoring play it was reviewed. 
 

then you’d have a stop in play, and a few minutes to think things through. 
 

instead of having the 4 men in black on the sidelines telling the official what to call. 

[Giuseppe Tognarelli]

Did we ever find out who the Men in Black are? Seriously, who are these guys that no one's ever seen before?

[May Day 10]

After thinking about it for a day, i think it was boneheaded and should have counted.

 

The bills didnt lose because of that though.  Still had a 16-0 lead in the 2nd half and chances to win in overtime

[LABILLBACKER]

16 hours ago, Billzgobowlin said:

I get this and understand but little things matter.  He made a mental error and he got a pass.  

I also thought the rule calls for the player to take a knee ( like Roberts did all day) before tossing the ball to the ref.

[NoSaint]

11 minutes ago, pennstate10 said:

yeah, but he can certainly throw a challenge flag, get the refs attention, be told he can’t challenge it. 
 

because as a scoring play it was reviewed. 
 

then you’d have a stop in play, and a few minutes to think things through. 
 

instead of having the 4 men in black on the sidelines telling the official what to call. 

throwing the flag is a penalty there

[BillsFan692]

16 hours ago, MJS said:

He gave himself up. Remember the Tee White INT where he ran back into the end zone? They rules that Tre White gave himself up too. Can't have it both ways.

Tre white went down to the ground first though. Thus giving himself up. Nobody touched him. Quite a bit different since this player didnt go down to the ground and if he did we wouldnt even be talking about it.

[pennstate10]

4 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

throwing the flag is a penalty there

Sorry, you’re wrong. 
throwing a challenge flag in the final two minutes is. 
throwing a challenge flag and being told you can’t challenge the play happens all the time. 
And the final call in the field, after the men in black intervention, was touchback. There would have been no penalty for throwing a challenge flag. 

[NoSaint]

12 minutes ago, pennstate10 said:

Sorry, you’re wrong. 
throwing a challenge flag in the final two minutes is. 
throwing a challenge flag and being told you can’t challenge the play happens all the time. 
And the final call in the field, after the men in black intervention, was touchback. There would have been no penalty for throwing a challenge flag. 

throwing a flag on a scoring or turnover would be too

 

but if that was a field ruling with no intervention from nyc you are right. Edit: actually it’d be a forward pass and penalty not a fumble on a challenge also not reviewable 

Edited January 5, 2020 by NoSaint

[bbb]

2 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

It’s ambiguous, but a rule-of-reason interpretation would find that that amounted to a touchback. Kneeling isn’t required, as far as I can tell.

 

If a ball gets to the end zone and touches the ground, it’s an automatic touchback. There’s no need for a player to pick it up and kneel, or even catch a ball if it’s headed for the end zone and they don’t intend to return it.

This is a small time saver, but the goal is to blow a play dead earlier so that unnecessary collisions don’t happen. Under the previous rules, a player could take their time gathering a ball and kneeling while the coverage team and return team blockers still careened toward each other for no reason.

 

2 hours ago, 4merper4mer said:

Completely wrong.  You shouldn't talk down to people, especially when you're wrong.

 

2 hours ago, 4merper4mer said:

He caught the ball in the air so all that blah blah blah you typed is completely irrelevant.

 

2 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

It was deep in the end zone, he hadn’t returned it all game, and it was clear that he wasn’t going to return it on this one. It was just a dumb call by the ref, who sadly created moon landing material for Bills fans that’ll likely plague this board for the next decade.

Advice — this is a very bad hill to die on.

 

2 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

I have seriously seen this happen multiple times in other games. It is common. Trust me.

 

 

59 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

Sorry, but the rules changed with the new kickoff rules.  
 

If the ball on a kickoff touches the ground in the end zone without being touched - it is now a touchback regardless of where it hit the ground first.  It can hit at the 10 and bounce into the end zone and it is a touchback - like a punt.  The Bills/Jets kickoff would be a touchback today.  They updated the rule.  The ball is ruled dead the moment it hits the ground in the end zone.

 

 

 

Awesome.  So you're the only one agreeing with McBride and it's because you are using his own example, which proves the opposite - the player caught the ball.  It didn't hit the ground until after.  

[GoBills808]

Also of note: once the head ref rules it a TD the ONLY way it can be overturned is on video review. Not with the men in black coming in to dispense judgment. They basically threw out all protocol the NFL adheres to and said ***** it let’s go with ‘common sense’

[row_33]

53 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

I also thought the rule calls for the player to take a knee ( like Roberts did all day) before tossing the ball to the ref.

not necessary under the new rule, but a wise habit to execute to make sure

as we saw yesterday....

 

[4merper4mer]

2 minutes ago, row_33 said:

not necessary under the new rule, but a wise habit to execute to make sure

as we saw yesterday....

 

The rule still requires a knee once the player catches the ball.

[row_33]

6 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

The rule still requires a knee once the player catches the ball.

no it doesn’t

 

any action of dismissing a run back is enough, by word or hand wave or telling the official you will not be coming out of the EZ if it gets there

 

he clearly forfeited a return by his actions

 

give it up already....

Edited January 5, 2020 by row_33