How confident are you that Josh Allen will be our starter for the next 3 years+

[NewEra]

Once they take the reigns off it’s going to be fun

[JaCrispy]

10 minutes ago, D. L. Hot-Flamethrower said:

Yeah you are equal opportunity all right. You're perfectly objective in your mind. Your a hater and you know it.

 

Well I think you’re a hater and I think you’re trying to cover it up by calling me a hater....?

[MAJBobby]

1 minute ago, JaCrispy said:

Well, stating the obvious, his completion is around last in the NFL...the fact that he requires near perfect mechanics to throw when you have guys like Mahomes, Watson, Jackson and Wilson (all guys the bills had chances to draft) that can complete all kinds of passes throwing off platform is very discouraging....he is two years in and still doesn’t have a season of 60% completion.

 

Now, passing for 300 yards isn’t a stat that tells a whole lot...but when you have rookie QBs doing it with ease and Allen can’t come close to sniffing 300 after 25 games, it makes you question why it’s like “pulling teeth” for him.

 

His situational awareness has been suspect...however I was pleased to finally see him score for the first time at the end of regulation last night...

 

He’s completed 3 deep balls the passed two games which is good...but he still had a handful of overthrows last night that should have been completed and likely would have won the game...and they were just overthrows- they weren’t even close...

 

I think these are all legitimate concerns for people...Josh Allen is requiring a lot of patience, and we aren’t sure if he can get any better than he already is...We are seeing young QBs pass him by and it can certainly be frustrating at times.

 

Which ones are these that are passing him by?

[JaCrispy]

13 minutes ago, DuckyBoys said:

be fair and objective  Allen isnt operating the 2000 Rams offense  Bills still have below average playmakers and O line  He had a ton of pressure in his face thanks to facing endless third and longs Not many qbs are going to look good with Cody Ford blocking on the edge with no help and zero running game.  When he has time he's pretty spot on with exception of the deep shots. 

This is all true but when Allen has time he misses throws a franchise qb makes...

 

 

[NewEra]

4 minutes ago, JaCrispy said:

Well, stating the obvious, his completion is around last in the NFL...the fact that he requires near perfect mechanics to throw when you have guys like Mahomes, Watson, Jackson and Wilson (all guys the bills had chances to draft) that can complete all kinds of passes throwing off platform is very discouraging....he is two years in and still doesn’t have a season of 60% completion.

 

Now, passing for 300 yards isn’t a stat that tells a whole lot...but when you have rookie QBs doing it with ease and Allen can’t come close to sniffing 300 after 25 games, it makes you question why it’s like “pulling teeth” for him.

 

His situational awareness has been suspect...however I was pleased to finally see him score for the first time at the end of regulation last night...

 

He’s completed 3 deep balls the passed two games which is good...but he still had a handful of overthrows last night that should have been completed and likely would have won the game...and they were just overthrows- they weren’t even close...

 

I think these are all legitimate concerns for people...Josh Allen is requiring a lot of patience, and we aren’t sure if he can get any better than he already is...We are seeing young QBs pass him by and it can certainly be frustrating at times.

This is just a ridiculous statement.  Who isn’t sure?  He’s gets better every day.  Pretty obvious for those blessed with eyesight to see.

4 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

 

Which ones are these that are passing him by?

This season, Lamar.  That’s it.  He’s exaggerating to try and prove a point.  

[LabattBlue]

41 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

 The good thing is most of inaccurate throws come from improper footwork (this IS fixable). 

...and you know this how? 

Edited December 22, 2019 by LabattBlue

[MAJBobby]

7 minutes ago, NewEra said:

This is just a ridiculous statement.  Who isn’t sure?  He’s gets better every day.  Pretty obvious for those blessed with eyesight to see.

This season, Lamar.  That’s it.  He’s exaggerating to try and prove a point.  

so One. One that was also taken in the same round in the same draft. Well then I give you Allen has passed Darnold and Baker too. 
 

so the Point really is disingenuous

 

 

also shall we compare to what is around Lamar to what is around Allen? And you also see a OC and HC allowing Lamar to be Lamar. And ours scared to let Josh be Josh 

Edited December 22, 2019 by MAJBobby

[JaCrispy]

1 minute ago, NewEra said:

This is just a ridiculous statement.  Who isn’t sure?  He’s gets better every day.  Pretty obvious for those blessed with eyesight to see.

Not according to a lot of posts on this board...I think the fan base may be divided more than you know...

 

i think most fans are rooting for Josh and HOPE that he works out...but I don’t think that most fans think he has already arrived, or are even 100% certain that he ever will...then there is a smaller percentage of bills fans who just think Allen is God and can never do wrong, and they will never criticize him...I thinks that’s a little unrealistic.

[MAJBobby]

1 minute ago, LabattBlue said:

...and you know this how? 

because Footwork is fixable. Every QB that has played to position will tell you the same. But what it does take is Work and a Work Ethic to get better. And I think Josh has shown that work ethic. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

10 minutes ago, JaCrispy said:

Well, stating the obvious, his completion is around last in the NFL...the fact that he requires near perfect mechanics to throw when you have guys like Mahomes, Watson, Jackson and Wilson (all guys the bills had chances to draft) that can complete all kinds of passes throwing off platform is very discouraging....he is two years in and still doesn’t have a season of 60% completion.

 

Now, passing for 300 yards isn’t a stat that tells a whole lot...but when you have rookie QBs doing it with ease and Allen can’t come close to sniffing 300 after 25 games, it makes you question why it’s like “pulling teeth” for him.

 

His situational awareness has been suspect...however I was pleased to finally see him score for the first time at the end of regulation last night...

 

He’s completed 3 deep balls the passed two games which is good...but he still had a handful of overthrows last night that should have been completed and likely would have won the game...and they were just overthrows- they weren’t even close...

 

I think these are all legitimate concerns for people...Josh Allen is requiring a lot of patience, and we aren’t sure if he can get any better than he already is...We are seeing young QBs pass him by and it can certainly be frustrating at times.

 

OK fair enough.  Essentially I think you're saying "Josh Allen doesn't complete enough passes" in 3 different ways, so it comes back to the same problem.  To which I say, that's definitely a legit concern, but it's not all on him, either when we're leading the league in drops (and those are just scored drops, not passes a better WR or TE brings in)

 

I think the part about needing "near perfect mechanics to throw" is misguided or a misunderstanding.  Josh can throw off platfom too and usually does a handful of times a game.  But a QB's bread and butter is an on-platform throw with good mechanics, and that's no different for the guys you list.  Josh has improved a lot there this year, much further than I thought he'd go.  But he still needs to take a step, and no guarantees.

 

I'm not sure what you mean about "score for the first time at the end of regulation last night".   We didn't score there.  If we scored there, the game is tied.

 

You would have to define in what ways we are seeing "young QB pass him by" and who you mean for me to comment there, and I'll be honest - I dunno I'm interested in staying in this discussion.

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

11 minutes ago, JaCrispy said:

Well I think you’re a hater and I think you’re trying to cover it up by calling me a hater....?

Yeah It pisses me off when someone knows they hate Allen and throughout the season make comments as such, and then don't have the onions to admit it. There are some on 2BD who will support, could be wrong IMO, why they don't like him and want to move on. I can respect that a lot more.

[LabattBlue]

4 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

because Footwork is fixable. Every QB that has played to position will tell you the same. But what it does take is Work and a Work Ethic to get better. And I think Josh has shown that work ethic. 

I meant how do you know his footwork is the problem?

[NewEra]

14 minutes ago, JaCrispy said:

Not according to a lot of posts on this board...I think the fan base may be divided more than you know...

 

i think most fans are rooting for Josh and HOPE that he works out...but I don’t think that most fans think he has already arrived, or are even 100% certain that he ever will...then there is a smaller percentage of bills fans who just think Allen is God and can never do wrong, and they will never criticize him...I thinks that’s a little unrealistic.

It doesn’t matter if the fan base is divided.  All that will show me is that more of our fan base is blind.  He IS IMPROVING.  He misses some passes.  More than the best QBs.  No question.  I’m not saying he’s currently a great QB.   I’m saying he’s improving.  To say he isn’t improving is just blasphemy and is ridiculous imo.

 

 

 

15 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

so One. One that was also taken in the same round in the same draft. Well then I give you Allen has passed Darnold and Baker too. 
 

so your Point really is disingenuous

what is my point?  

Edited December 22, 2019 by NewEra

[MAJBobby]

Just now, LabattBlue said:

I meant how do you know his footwork is the problem?

it has been pointed out each game. When he is on platform feet pointing right way he is deadly accurate. 
 

when his base widens or pointing wrong he is way off target 

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

The biggest issue with JA is the opposite of what we have had with all our guys in the past. He doesn’t look to check the ball down. He sees open guys 5 yards down the field but he wants more.

 

i love that attitude, and I think he will figure out over time when to be aggressive and when to check it down. That is something that is easily improved on. If he were EJ or Trent and never could complete a ball in the middle of the field, then I would be in panic mode now.

[MAJBobby]

Just now, NewEra said:

It doesn’t matter if the fan base is divided.  All that will show me is that more of our fan base is blind.  He IS IMPROVING.  He misses some passes.  More than the best QBs.  No question.  I’m not saying he’s currently a great comment.  I’m saying he’s improving.  To say he isn’t improving is just blasphemy and is ridiculous imo.

 

 

 

what is my point?  

changed it. Grammar my bad 

[Keukasmallies]

12 hours ago, rayray808 said:

We are now at the point where a few things have been established:

 

- Playoffs are a lock

- Josh Allen is streaky

- Josh Allen has good games, and some not so good games

- Josh Allen is a duel threat who leads the league in rushing TDʻs but also fumbles

 

In threads there seems to be a divide that puts people all in on either him being the franchise, or him never able to make the jump to being an NFL starter.

 

This thread is intended to be able to quantify exactly how confident you are that he is indeed the future of the franchise without being 0% or 100% about it.

 

GO BILLS 

 

Gee, I didn't even know he owned a saber....

[H2o]

Yes and one of the top 5-8 QB's in the league, if not better. 

[DuckyBoys]

14 minutes ago, JaCrispy said:

This is all true but when Allen has time he misses throws a franchise qb makes...

 

 

He does but you cant teach that 4th down sneak or being able to backfoot a 50 yard td pass while getting drilled or routinely drilling completions on stick routes into tiny windows.  Everybody said he wouldnt make it because he was a turnover machine and he fixed it.  He'll fix the deep ball  Its getting better.  He may never be a west coast offense 70% passer but if the Bills can find some playmakers he could run a explosive vertical offense off rpos  We just dont have the horses yet and the O line needs more help

[WideRightRevenge]

Can we reflect on the 2018 Draft Class.  From a longevity perspective ... I'll take our Josh all day long.

 

Baker -- cashed in on endorsements .. had a ton of talent around him (more than our Josh) and crapped out this year

Darnold - seeing ghosts

Lamar - Obvious MVP this year .. but my concern is given his playing style .. can he continue long term (3+ years as thread asks)

Rosen - to quote Ocho Cinco ... Child please .. two teams ... and the comfort of riding the pine for both teams

 

Our Josh will only continue to grow (yes I yelled yesterday at the overthrows in the end zone .. but he makes plays net of Lamar that the others just can't do)  ... look at the evolution from year 1 to year 2 ... I'm all in on Allen

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

Just now, NewEra said:

It doesn’t matter if the fan base is divided.  All that will show me is that more of our fan base is blind.  He IS IMPROVING.  He misses some passes.  More than the best QBs.  No question.  I’m not saying he’s currently a great comment.  I’m saying he’s improving.  To say he isn’t improving is just blasphemy and is ridiculous imo.

 

 

 

what is my point?  

 

....shouldn't that be the REASONABLE expectation of a 2nd year kid with 26 starts?....why did Steve Young (...yup...HIM.....but what does he know?) say, "more collegians fail versus succeed at the NFL level due to the speed and complexity of the game"......why do former NFL QB's turned analysts (Dilfer, Simms, Palmer, Dorsey, etc) dissect Allen to date, with BOTH positives and negatives, and come out with NET positives for the kid's progress?.....what would THEY know?..."they all sucked".......then again, TBD "experts" would know best...

[NewEra]

10 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

so One. One that was also taken in the same round in the same draft. Well then I give you Allen has passed Darnold and Baker too. 
 

so the Point really is disingenuous

 

 

also shall we compare to what is around Lamar to what is around Allen? And you also see a OC and HC allowing Lamar to be Lamar. And ours scared to let Josh be Josh 

My point was only Lamar has passed Josh this year.  He’s the Mvp.  He has passed him....this season.  
 

I agree that roman and Harbaugh have been HUGE in his success.  Maybe more so than Lamars actual play.  I believe if roman ever leaves, Lamar will likely regress some.  That being said, again, he’s MVP.  He’s passed JA, this season.  
 

I didn’t really have a point, more along the lines of “only one QB has passed josh.....and it’s the mvp”.  

[JaCrispy]

3 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

OK fair enough.  Essentially I think you're saying "Josh Allen doesn't complete enough passes" in 3 different ways, so it comes back to the same problem.  To which I say, that's definitely a legit concern, but it's not all on him, either when we're leading the league in drops (and those are just scored drops, not passes a better WR or TE brings in)

 

I think the part about needing "near perfect mechanics to throw" is misguided or a misunderstanding.  Josh can throw off platfom too and usually does a handful of times a game.  But a QB's bread and butter is an on-platform throw with good mechanics, and that's no different for the guys you list.  Josh has improved a lot there this year, much further than I thought he'd go.  But he still needs to take a step, and no guarantees.

 

I'm not sure what you mean about "score for the first time at the end of regulation last night".   We didn't score there.  If we scored there, the game is tied.

 

You would have to define in what ways we are seeing "young QB pass him by" and who you mean for me to comment there, and I'll be honest - I dunno I'm interested in staying in this discussion.

End of regulation meaning he scored in the final seconds of the half for the first time-which has always been one of my biggest pet peeves- lack of situational awareness in two minute drill.

 

QBs passing him by in development meaning in his first 10 games Daniel Jones already has a couple 300 yard/4 TD games, as does Murray with 300 yard games and 65% completion...Murray has also had 2 games this year with 3 TD passes to Josh’s 1. (That being said, Josh left 2 passing TDs on the board last night- he should have had 4.

[MAJBobby]

2 minutes ago, NewEra said:

My point was only Lamar has passed Josh this year.  He’s the Mvp.  He has passed him....this season.  
 

I agree that roman and Harbaugh have been HUGE in his success.  Maybe more so than Lamars actual play.  I believe if roman ever leaves, Lamar will likely regress some.  That being said, again, he’s MVP.  He’s passed JA, this season.  
 

I didn’t really have a point, more along the lines of “only one QB has passed josh.....and it’s the mvp”.  

again it is one. Crispy said many QBs. So my point is he is disingenuous with his point. 

[Success]

Maybe I'm too much of a homer, but considering that Allen was out a good portion of last year, I think his progress has been absolutely remarkable.  He has that determination to fix mistakes & improve that you want - he's relentless when it comes to evaluating himself and looking for ways to get better.  It reminds me of the dude he faced off against yesterday.

 

And he is BIG in both prime time games, and in the 4th quarter. It's hard to adequately convey how important that quality is if we every hope to win a championship.

 

I'd be absolutely shocked if he wasn't our starter in 3 years, or 10 years.  I'm so happy we got him over Darnold, Rosen or Mayfield (no comment on Jackson for the time being).  We finally have a guy we can build around, and that should be exactly what we do going forward.  

 

[MAJBobby]

1 minute ago, JaCrispy said:

End of regulation meaning he scored in the final seconds of the half for the first time-which has always been one of my biggest pet peeves- lack of situational awareness in two minute drill.

 

QBs passing him by in development meaning in his first 10 games Daniel Jones already has a couple 300 yard/4 TD games, as does Murray with 300 yard games and 65% completion...Murray has also had 2 games this year with 3 TD passes to Josh’s 1. (That being said, Josh left 2 passing TDs on the board last night- he should have had 4.

Daniel Jones is where?

1st Overall Pick is Where? 
 

So you would put Murray and Jones on this roster right now?

[NewEra]

3 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

....shouldn't that be the REASONABLE expectation of a 2nd year kid with 26 starts?....why did Steve Young (...yup...HIM.....but what does he know?) say, "more collegians fail versus succeed at the NFL level due to the speed and complexity of the game"......why do former NFL QB's turned analysts (Dilfer, Simms, Palmer, Dorsey, etc) dissect Allen to date, with BOTH positives and negatives, and come out with NET positives for the kid's progress?.....what would THEY know?..."they all sucked".......then again, TBD "experts" would know best...

Absolutely.  Everyone wants to skip the growing pains portion of growing.  In most cases, that’s not reality 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

11 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

it has been pointed out each game. When he is on platform feet pointing right way he is deadly accurate. 
 

when his base widens or pointing wrong he is way off target 

 

...you mean to tell me that this is not a fundamental flaw, assuming a quick fix correctable that Palmer or Dorsey do NOT see?....if not, why not?....

[NewEra]

1 minute ago, MAJBobby said:

again it is one. Crispy said many QBs. So my point is he is disingenuous with his point. 

We are in 100% agreement sir 

[JaCrispy]

11 minutes ago, NewEra said:

It doesn’t matter if the fan base is divided.  All that will show me is that more of our fan base is blind.  He IS IMPROVING.  He misses some passes.  More than the best QBs.  No question.  I’m not saying he’s currently a great QB.   I’m saying he’s improving.  To say he isn’t improving is just blasphemy and is ridiculous imo.

 

 

 

what is my point?  

I don’t know any fan that has ever said that Josh hasn’t improved...so I don’t really know what you’re talking about...the stats are pretty clear that Josh has improved.

 

The problem is that Josh was so bad last year that even with his improvements  this year, he is STILL a bottom third passer...

[NewEra]

4 minutes ago, JaCrispy said:

End of regulation meaning he scored in the final seconds of the half for the first time-which has always been one of my biggest pet peeves- lack of situational awareness in two minute drill.

 

QBs passing him by in development meaning in his first 10 games Daniel Jones already has a couple 300 yard/4 TD games, as does Murray with 300 yard games and 65% completion...Murray has also had 2 games this year with 3 TD passes to Josh’s 1. (That being said, Josh left 2 passing TDs on the board last night- he should have had 4.

Daniel Jones has passed Josh Allen by?  You did just say that?

[JaCrispy]

1 minute ago, MAJBobby said:

Daniel Jones is where?

1st Overall Pick is Where? 
 

So you would put Murray and Jones on this roster right now?

This is such an obnoxious question.

[MAJBobby]

1 minute ago, JaCrispy said:

I don’t know any fan that has ever said that Josh hasn’t improved...so I don’t really know what you’re talking about...the stats are pretty clear that Josh has improved.

 

The problem is that Josh was so bad last year that even with his improvements  this year, he is STILL a bottom third passer...

ooo no a raw QB. Wait we all knew that is what was drafted. 

Just now, JaCrispy said:

This is such an obnoxious question.

And Yet True

[JaCrispy]

2 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

ooo no a raw QB. Wait we all knew that is what was drafted. 

And Yet True

You said it, not me...

[LabattBlue]

13 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

it has been pointed out each game. When he is on platform feet pointing right way he is deadly accurate. 
 

when his base widens or pointing wrong he is way off target 

He's been through 4 years at a D1 college football program, two NFL training camps, and has worked with QB guru Jordan Palmer the last two years, yet his footwork is still a problem...and is still fixable down the road?

 

okie dokie

 

IMO...I think it's more a case of what you see, is what you get(in terms of his accuracy)

[MAJBobby]

2 minutes ago, JaCrispy said:

You said it, not me...

everyone here knew that. If they didn’t well that’s on them. And the Raw QB has shown what you want to see GROWTH. 

1 minute ago, LabattBlue said:

He's been through 4 years at a D1 college football program, two NFL training camps, and has worked with QB guru Jordan Palmer the last two years, yet his footwork is still a problem...and is still fixable down the road?

 

okie dokie

 

IMO...I think it's more a case of what you see, is what you get(in terms of his accuracy)

um let see tell me how many Wyoming QBs came in to the NFL with proper and polished footwork. 
 

his accuracy is fine. The Area he likely will always struggle is the over the top throws. 

Edited December 22, 2019 by MAJBobby

[BrownNgold]

6 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

He's been through 4 years at a D1 college football program, two NFL training camps, and has worked with QB guru Jordan Palmer the last two years, yet his footwork is still a problem...and is still fixable down the road?

 

okie dokie

 

IMO...I think it's more a case of what you see, is what you get(in terms of his accuracy)

2 years in D1 just fyi,  heck let's say 3 one being with a busted up shoulder

[NewEra]

2 minutes ago, JaCrispy said:

I don’t know any fan that has ever said that Josh hasn’t improved...so I don’t really know what you’re talking about...the stats are pretty clear that Josh has improved.

 

The problem is that Josh was so bad last year that even with his improvements  this year, he is STILL a bottom third passer...

Your quote:  “Josh Allen is requiring a lot of patience, and we aren’t sure if he can get any better than he already is...”

 

You’re saying that we aren’t sure if he can get better than he already is.......meanwhile......he’s better than he was two weeks ago and is improving every day.  
 

you don’t think he’s going to get better than he is today?

 

It doesn’t help him that Cody Ford just gets abused on the reg and all of our WRs are under 6 foot.  Are there any other QBs that has their top 3 Wrs at 5’10, 5’8 and 5’7?   

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

1 minute ago, NewEra said:

Absolutely.  Everyone wants to skip the growing pains portion of growing.  In most cases, that’s not reality 

 

...LMAO bud......."reality" and some "TBD experts" in the SAME sentence?....gonna have to change my Depends now...let's revisit and gift wrap some "gems" in the "Christmas spirit"......."fire McBeane & McDermott now"....."Pegula, our clueless Owner"......"Allen is a bust"..."Too Small Ed is a bust"....."Edmunds sucks"........"letting Shady go is a major mistake"....."we effed up with Mahomes in the draft (yet "NO Air Raid QB EVER makes it in the NFL")......"we missed Milano in injury but he's a liability in his return"......"we should use Tre' as trade bait to move up (2018)"....." Foles...Cousins.....Cutler...etc as bring 'em in".......the list is endless.........

 

[LabattBlue]

5 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

um let see tell me how many Wyoming QBs came in to the NFL with proper and polished footwork. 
 

his accuracy is fine. The Area he likely will always struggle is the over the top throws. 

ummm...feel free to cherry pick the parts of my post that support your argument, and just ignore the rest. lol

 

I'll move on.  This is going nowhere.